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base428

Remove the BASE Fatality List

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What else did you want to discuss that has not yet been covered, o most venerable smartass troublemaker?



It was the assumption that there can be a "last word" on this topic (or any topic), which bothered me.

You're open minded, so I'm surprised you disagree.



I'm not so open-minded as you might imagine, but in this case, I wonder what part of what I wrote led you to the conclusion that I disagree?

As for me, everything else I have to say on the subject belongs in email, which is where I intend to keep it, barring some bizarre turn of the thread.

rl

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I think the list helps the BASE community more than it harms.
"They" will always think we're Sharkfvckers anyway.
Remembering your friends ( and sometimes their mistakes and misfortune) is important.
If you want to do your part to help the BASE community,Don't die doing a BASE jump and increas the little red #.
Please keep the list Nick
~J
"One flew East,and one flew West..............one flew over the cuckoo's nest"
"There's absolutely no excuse for the way I'm about to act"

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hi nick, keep the list updated, please.
we also collect skydive fatalities in a list to learn from the mistakes and improve our safety. three decades of jumping and 85 killed jumpers? not to be misunderstood, every single one of these was too much and we all would be happy if they could be still alive.
but 85 in thirty years is very low (if I think about the "experimental-status" in the early years).
how many skydivers died in the early years of jumping out of planes? got this point?
not so long ago, the base guys were jumping regular skydiving gear, round canopies or modified 7cells. less knowledge in judging the meteorological and/or site specific conditions were not so uncommon.
this list is about to show that our sport IS dangerous and not a new lifestyle-adventure.
this list is about to keep our eyes open and to be under alert in every jump.
this list is about to show what happens, not more but also nothing less.
let us all keep working, that this list will disappear by itself.
if we all could mange to get the fatalities to zero, this list will not longer make sense.
this would be the only reason for me to take it away.
until then: keep it, please.
--------------------------------------------------

With sufficient thrust,
pigs just fly well

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I posted this on BLiNC

In my eyes the list as many benefits. It is educational on how people have died. It is a memory to people. It is a way to show prospective new jumpers that deaths are not just numbers but are actual people - people that we know. Unlike the 100's of skydivers that have died and have been forgotten except by those close to them, this list remembers each and everyone and allows their memory to be carried on to future generations. It is very personal for each fatality and I for one beleive that it should be kept that way. To get rid of it is an insult to the fallen.

As soldiers are remembered by name for deaths in battles on the many many many monuments around the UK and the world, so should we remember by name the brothers that have fallen in our battle against gravity, a battle we will never win, but just hope for a stalemate each and everytime.


I guess it covers alot said here already, but thought I would throw my 2 pennies in

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I think Nick summed it up quite nicely with "No one can hurt us with the truth.".

It is what it is. There's nothing to hide. I also agree that password protecting the site really won't deter the determined, and quite frankly I'm a big believer in open access to information.

I'm certain The List has saved many, many lives with the lessons learned within. It may have also deterred those who may not have been a good fit with the sport from taking it up.

I know I personally read and and every one of those entries at least 3 times before taking this sport up. I can't tell you how many times we analyze a situation and hearken back to an entry which made us reconsider.

The site is invaluable for newbies and veterans alike. I think it needs to stay up. It does far more good than harm.

Practiced responsibly, I think BASE is a sport that is no more dangerous than many of the other extreme sports currently permitted in our National Parks. Free soloing? Extreme mountain biking? Rope jumping? Hellloooo???

Still, like those other sports, this is a sport where you can do everything right and still die. It IS a dangerous sport, let's not kid ourselves. But so are many other things that are socially accepted (Indy car racing?). I think it's patently unfair that some taxpayers are allowed to practice their socially-accepted dangerous sport in OUR National Parks while we are not. I think that's the real issue.... not the existences of the list.

And if the NPS uses that to deny us access to our National Parks, then really this whole process was nothing but a charade.

- Z
"Always be yourself... unless you suck." - Joss Whedon

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Zennie I have to agree with most everything you say. The only thing I have an issue with is this:

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Practiced responsibly, I think BASE is a sport that is no more dangerous than many of the other extreme sports currently permitted in our National Parks. Free soloing? Extreme mountain biking? Rope jumping? Hellloooo???



Jump Rope? You can't be throwing jump rope in with these other sports. I mean really! It's just a couple people twirling a rope while someone jumps in the middle of it! I can't see the danger in that. You're not even talking about double dutch here. Next thing you know the government is going to start making extreme jump ropers wear helmets and shit. Jeeze dude, be a little more careful with what you say online. You don't want a bunch of pissed off third graders kicking in your door one night. Trust me. I know this from experience.

--------------

(Do not, I repeat DO NOT, take my posts seriously.)

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Practiced responsibly, I think BASE is a sport that is no more dangerous than many of the other extreme sports currently permitted in our National Parks. Free soloing? Extreme mountain biking? Rope jumping?



That argument may be a double edged sword. The NPS has made various attempts to prohibit and/or restrict climbing and rope jumping. I'd hate to see that argument get turned around and used against those folks.
-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

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Well, I think any doubts Nick had about keeping the list have now been completely removed. In taking what was a private conversation public, Jason has probably galvinised his stand.

Nick, thanks for your tireless work on the list. Apart from being an exremely eye-opening awareness builder it's also a very important tribute on a personal level for me. Australia has nothing to gain by it's removal.

g.
"Altitude is birthright to any individual who seeks it"

.

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That argument may be a double edged sword. The NPS has made various attempts to prohibit and/or restrict climbing and rope jumping. I'd hate to see that argument get turned around and used against those folks.



Yeah, I understand it can cut both ways. But it's still fundamentally an issue of fairness and equal access.

I think we all agree that climbers, bikers, BASE jumpers and rope jumpers should have the right to practice their chosen activity in our public parks. If the NPS decided to even-handedly apply policy by prohibiting all of those activities, they'd be stirring up one heckuva PR hornet's nest.

Can you imagine all of us united? They'd be insane to take on the entire parachuting, climbing and biking communities.

Politically (and ethically, IMHO) it would be MUCH more palatable to open access rather than shut it off.

- Z
"Always be yourself... unless you suck." - Joss Whedon

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That argument may be a double edged sword. The NPS has made various attempts to prohibit and/or restrict climbing and rope jumping. I'd hate to see that argument get turned around and used against those folks.



Yeah, I understand it can cut both ways. But it's still fundamentally an issue of fairness and equal access.

(stuff snipped)

Can you imagine all of us united? They'd be insane to take on the entire parachuting, climbing and biking communities.



While it would be nice to see us united with the climbers (and there are more than enough examples of why we should be), I just don't see it happening. Mainly because the climbers already have access - so they've nothing much to gain (and perhaps everything to lose) through an alliance with us. Have you read some of the whuffo responses (sorry tom - I know you don't like that moniker but it exactly describes the mentality of some of those folks) on Jason's threads posted over on the geotopo site?? For the most part I think the resident hardmen understand, but there're an awful lot of weekend wall warriors out there who don't or won't (I'm talking about base as an acceptable means of descent as opposed to rapping or otherwise - or simply as a sport standing alone) accept that BASE and climbing go together like milk and honey. Realize that I'm not overlooking all of the folks we know who DO understand the relationship - it's just that an overwhelming majority don't.

Gardner

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How many of you honestly read it BEFORE you started jumping? How many of you understood it?



Call me morbid, but I've read that list more than once, and I am convinced that it helped keep me out of BASE.

That, and the fact that my wife would kill me if I did a BASE jump, causing me to end up on either the top or the bottom part of the list...

What's strange though is that I read through all the skydiving fatalities before getting back into skydiving after a 10 year break, and this didn't stop me from skydiving. Maybe this is because the BASE fatality list is more 'personal', but I don't have a really good explanation for that.
Rainman

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I don't have a really good explanation for that.



I have at least a partial explanation... BASE is really scary.

It's easy to picture someone *not* BASE jumping for that reason alone.

The list is what it is. I know people in both categories. I think about them sometimes, especially when standing atop of something not so high.
My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

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I would have to say i have read it more than a few tiimes as it gives you alot of information about something that is not normal. I think that if they did do a list liike thiis iin skydiving maybe so many people would not hammer in.... :(


In the end...the universe has a way of working itself out.... "Harold and Kumar go to White Castle"

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What kind of info are you looking for? There are some folks on this forum with experience rope jumping, but as far as I know there are no formal training programs available, and very little written information.
-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

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rope jumping is something that I have done a few times. the best place to get info on this type of thing would be to talk to climbers. find a local rock climbing gym and get to know some people there. they would now how to point you in the right direction. however it is so much easier to base,........alot less gear and less time to set up. if you are doing this in a place without permission, sometimes it can be very dificult to set everything up make your jump and retreive your gear without anybody noticing. just something to think about

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I am a greek midget

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To put BASE in some kind of perspective

2000 people ascended Mount Everest and 179 died on the way. 130 climbers have summited Annapurna, while 53 have died.
http://www.mounteverest.net/story/stories/ANNAPURNAKillerMountainsAnExplorersWebSeriesSep242003.shtml

600 people died scuba diving in caves in Florida, Mexico and Caribbean http://www.smartdivers.com/cavediving.html

The problem is that jumping of a cliff, bridge, or a building has a clear suicidal image in our society, despite being a rare way of committing it.

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Freinds-

-Its incredible what one can get away with in this sport... Its disgusting how the simplest mistake can kill you so quicklly. PAY ATTENTION-
-C. Hecker

We participate in a sport where it is kinda hard to learn from your own mistakes.

(a broad statement, i know but think about it)

i'm not one for censorship either. Ever.
I would never turn anybody from this sport, especially the ones who, like me, are enthusiastic about it.
I would, however, like to see people who research it and decide on there own that BASE is not for them. I dont think anybody should lie, or keep from the public, that this is a dangerous thing to do, maybe not as dangerous as the public sees it already, but still a big decision to make.

keep it.

-SPACE-

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girlfalldown...
Jump... Rope... Jump...
HA HA HA!... i'm sure you got straightened out.
cheers, maybe join us on our playground sometime.

big sigh...
hey, some of those kids on the playground jump ropeing got smart and started using 2 ropes,
their mothers even make them wear helmets.
sounds a lot like our progression...
off topic, im done.

-SPACE-

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