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base428

Remove the BASE Fatality List

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Moe Viletto observed, "death is an educational tool." So that's why the List looks as it does...



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And if the "Mainstream" skydiving publications
had a bit less 'sugar coating' there may be
a few less low hook fatalities...

But then again revenue would drop w/o
the warm & fuzzies.

The site is well done...and one of the
few places one can get facts without
having to read between the lines.












~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

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The attached form is about 5 years old. It was co-developed between myself & DW. It is probably the same as some of the manufacturers have published too. Logically, they should be similar if we are asking the right questions.

It needs updating but served reasonably well in its time.

If you have any suggestions, feel free to email me.

Stay Safe
Have Fun
Good Luck

Tom
Stay Safe - Have Fun - Good Luck

The above could be crap, thought provoking, useful, or . . But not personal. You decide.

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BASE jumping is a very small part of my life.


Huh?
IF you say that BASE is a small peice of your life then i guess your saying that i aint into BASE.

Jason,your working alot in the name of BASE and i do appritiate it.But saying that BASE is a small part of your life aint true..

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I still have the opinion that the list needs to be modified.


No one ask you to reconsidder your oppinions,i want you to have your oppinion ans long im alowed to have mine aswell...
Just happen that most in here think the list is fine as it is.. sometimes you gotta face that you cant win each time..
Rather find a new thing that can be made in a better place serving the hole comunity(please rember it aint only on your side of the pond...).

Keep up your good work Jason i dont agree whith you about removing or even modify the list but i still think your doing a great job:)

Stay safe
Stefan Faber

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First I would like to say I am sorry for intruding as I do not jump base.

I would just like to say that I think the job Nick is doing with the list is great. It is a pretty grim task I am guessing and I am glad that there is a way to learn from past mistakes. I would hope if I did something 'new' that others could learn from it and not have to suffer the same fate.

I think the list is organised, however I believe a few changes could make a big difference to how it is read by the general wuffo public. Also I am aware we do not want to make it too clinical or statistical as it can be in poor taste, so below is just brain farts do not take them seriously.

Some suggestions include:
* organising it into years/countries. (make it clear so they can compare to other sports etc..)
* perhaps give year and then the number (or two numbers) when/if numbering
* Seperate the analysis from the tribute.
* place people who have passed away not jumping as a different page.

I do think the way the dz.com list is organised is a good example and perhaps hh can add a base list that nick can maintain. And it does appear to be easy to maintain while keeping it too the point and hence making it easy for journos to follow and hence giving them less excuses to spew bullshit.

Unfortunately statics can be very helpful to helping your cause as much as it can hurt it. For example (i do not know the real stats) x number of incidents had factors that could be related to NPS enforcement (using b gear, bad weather, night jumps etc..). Trying to avoid jinxing, however I was suprised when I broke down the incidents from 2004 and compared it to other years.

But I am just refering to the list being public and then being used by journalists. They will do anything to sell a story and they appear to be lazy so the clearer the list is to read the more accurate you will appear in the press imho.

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When I started this thread, I did so with good intentions. I wanted to express my opinion on the list, as well as gain insight toward what others think. If anything, I knew that good ideas may result from healthy discussion. Maybe the title of the thread should have been "Modify" rather than "Remove" the list. Maybe I should have just asked for opinions on the subject. I guess I think differently than most of you and my personality doesn't always permit me to suppress my opinions (good or bad).

That being said, I apologize to Nick if my post came off incorrectly, as this was not my intention. Rhondalea and Karen, you are both wonderful people with great insight. Keep up the good work. Dennis, we are both base jumpers and bickering only serves to bring us both down. I apologize for my reactionary posts.

Cya all at the exit point.
(c)2010 Vertical Visions. No unauthorized duplication permitted. <==For the media only

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First I would like to say I am sorry for intruding as I do not jump base.


no reasson to sorry,its an open forum,people who dont want to listen or speak to skydivers has a place called Blinc were (mostly)only BASEjumpers post.

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* organising it into years/countries. (make it clear so they can compare to other sports etc..)


you already have dates on the list,locations are also named many times,which can be hard for thouse legal sites like Norway as people travel there to jump a big legal thing.. i cant see how you can compare that to other sports..

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* perhaps give year and then the number (or two numbers) when/if numbering


its already made so #1 at the list were #1 whith the early year,the latest has the oldest date.

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* Seperate the analysis from the tribute.


i see the idea in that BUT it effect me more as i look at a pic while reading,that way my emotions front each other and its not just somthing in a tekst it really happened to the person im reading about.

Perhaps a database telling which reasson people died and how to prevent it as another side could be great.

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* place people who have passed away not jumping as a different page.


If you mean inside the site but under another category i do agree,could be like:

Frontpage telling about BASE,perhaps random pics of our fallen brother and sisters.There should be a menu were you could navigate like:
The list
passed away outside the sport
conclusion-the database running side way
Contact to Nick,plus Nick storry

Just an idea not even sure i like it my self:S it just pop´d up..(damit i get ideas,now i can be evrywere:|:ph34r:)

flame away

ps. i do belive that Nick does a great job,i hope he will keep doing so:)

Stay safe
Stefan Faber

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MT's spreadsheet does a good job of summarizing the incidents by type. It's easy to tweak the categories for any set of data you are trying to extract. I've been trying to keep my copy of it updated. I wonder if a downloadable, current version of it might not be a good thing to keep somewhere?

I don't know that putting the List on DZ.com is the best idea. I kind of like it having it's own, independent life.
-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

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I don't know that putting the List on DZ.com is the best idea. I kind of like it having it's own, independent life.


IF the site should move from weres it now,i deafently think it belongs on BLINC,nothing against DZ.com BUT the list deafenly belongs to a place were most BASE jumpers will have a look anyway..And even as dz.com is a nice place many online BASEjumpers dont visit here aswell,but i dont know any online BASEjumpers who dont visit BLINC..just a thourght..


You could always make a directly link from here(after arrengement whith Mick)

Stay safe
Stefan Faber

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i dont know any online BASEjumpers who dont visit BLINC..just a thourght..



I know of many, actually.

As I said before, I like it having it's own, independent place. I think that Nick is the correct keeper of the list, and I don't think it ought to end up attached to any other site.
-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

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When I started this thread, I did so with good intentions. I wanted to express my opinion on the list, as well as gain insight toward what others think. If anything, I knew that good ideas may result from healthy discussion. Maybe the title of the thread should have been "Modify" rather than "Remove" the list. Maybe I should have just asked for opinions on the subject. I guess I think differently than most of you and my personality doesn't always permit me to suppress my opinions (good or bad).

That being said, I apologize to Nick if my post came off incorrectly, as this was not my intention. Rhondalea and Karen, you are both wonderful people with great insight. Keep up the good work. Dennis, we are both base jumpers and bickering only serves to bring us both down. I apologize for my reactionary posts.

Cya all at the exit point.



No apology to me is necessary, Jason. I hadnt realized to what degree my instinctive and historical dislike of you had permeated my thinking. Tom corrected this for me here. It wont be necessary again in the future. My apologies for unconsciously wandering into the personal and being a zealot.

And I imagine having a pregnant wife nearing term with your first child is a stressful and scary time for a young couple. The baby will be fine and if she's half her parents quality she'll do well. Jennifer will be fine and you'll make a great dad. Im sure everyone wishes the three of you the very best. ;)

PS. Its not too late to name the baby Thomasina or Nickoletta.

Denise would just be over the top, man, stop it....B|

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I've spent all day trying to write a post for this thread, and every attempt has turned into babble. I suspect that this one will too, because the issue is so emotionally charged for me.

What I'd really like to say to you right now, Jason, would just create a minor ruckus in some circles, so I'll save it for email. I can allude to it, however, by saying that the reason I have liked you from the beginning of our acquaintance, in spite of the impediment :ph34r:, is that you are one of those rare individuals who lives an examined life. You also have the intelligence and integrity to look beyond your self-interest. To know you is a blessing.

Now comes the babble, so y'all might just want to stop reading right about here, even if I feel compelled to keep writing something I'll be sorry for later.

Someone commented up above that he knows two people on The List. (I started this as a "reply to" and changed my mind, because I don't want you to blame him for getting me going.)

It got me to thinking, so I loaded The List and started counting. In the top half, I have four friends and two acquaintances.

In the bottom half, I have four--soon to be five when Nick adds Josh--and the painful awareness of one missing. (Aaron Britton should be on the list, Nick. Ask Tree.)

So anyway...

I read something once, so long ago I don't even remember the tradition from which it originates:

"I will speak your name."

Parting words in a time when it was never certain that travelling companions would meet again. A promise that, no matter what, one would not be forgotten.

I believe that the human spirit is eternal, but in the here and now, the only immortality that any of us is given lies in the memories of those who love us.

In the last ten years, at least thirty people for whom I cared have died. In a way, it makes perfect sense--we're talking about people who throw themselves out of airplanes and off fixed objects, after all. Other times, though, it feels like my own personal tsunami. I'm sure many of you can relate.

For nearly three years after his death, I carried in my purse the email Thor Alex sent me right after he was released from a NYC jail. When I remembered him and was sad, then I could hold his letter in my hands and read his words. It was a tangible reminder of his existence, and it was a comfort to me. I once shared it with another of his friends and watched it bring tears to his eyes. It was a comfort to him too.

For a long time after we met, Dr. Death and I stayed in touch, right up until I opted out and stopped answering my email, my phone...I wasn't home to anyone. (If you're really reading this and you want to know how dire can be the consequences of falling out of touch, I am an object lesson.) Then Lee died, and Nik was the only person in the world I really wanted to talk to. To this day, I carry the last email he wrote to me. Just knowing it is there to read is a comfort to me.

The problem is that to think of them, remember them, speak of them all the time is a disservice to those still living. So...

I don't know if The List is educational except to the extent it tells us that BASE can and will kill you, sometimes even if you do everything right. Consider that all the incident reports in Parachutist have had little effect on the overall skydiving fatality rate--even if the proximate cause of death has changed substantially over the years. But if The List persuades even one person that it can happen to him, that he may not be the exception, and that he should prepare for the very real possibility of dying, then it is education enough.

But given that The List just puts a human face on what should be patently obvious, what is more important to me than anything is that those who have gone before are remembered, that the only true immortality they can have in this life is accorded to them. I do not want them to be forgotten, any of them. For example, I never knew Theresa Tran, but I remember when she died. I remember how much her friends loved her and their online outpouring of grief. I want her to be remembered. I want her to live forever in the hearts and minds of all those who come after, and it is this purpose that The List serves perfectly...

...that, and that it comforts me.

rl
If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

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One of the few posts I've read in its entirety in this thread. And I'm glad I did.
"If you can keep your head when all around you have lost theirs, then you probably haven't understood the seriousness of the situation."
David Brent

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Nick

I think the list has a number of the aforementioned benefits e.g educational, memorial etc. However the picture of the reaper cheapens it and detracts from what it may offer. I concur with the suggestion to make it more of a collection of incident reports along with recommendations. The increased work may require additional resourcing. That aside, I think the list existing is better than a blackhole of information.

cya

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Very nicely said. It should be the last word on this subject.
Time for a lock Tom??



You can't ask for a lock just because the poster happens to agree with your views. That's "last-word-ism".
Coreece: "You sound like some skinheads I know, but your prejudice is with Christians, not niggers..."

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You can't ask for a lock just because the poster happens to agree with your views. That's "last-word-ism



If that's a logical fallacy, it's a new one on me. ;)

What else did you want to discuss that has not yet been covered, o most venerable smartass troublemaker?

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Very nicely said. It should be the last word on this subject.
Time for a lock Tom??



You can't ask for a lock just because the poster happens to agree with your views. That's "last-word-ism".



I can ask for whatever I want, just as you can ask for it not to be locked because it doesn't agree with your views. It doesn't mean we'll get it though now does it?

word:ph34r:



May we live long and die out

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If the site was set up to propagate information to the worldwide BASE community, password protecting it becomes a logistical nightmare and kind of defeats the purpose. Password protecting the site is a big move and how do you discern who is legit and who isn't?

Is there anyway to remove the site's listing from the search engines or limit the sites visibility to search engines? People can always track it down by asking here/blinc/base-forums i.e. still publicly available, but not served out on a platter for all to see.

If someone’s determined to find it, they will, but lessening its visibility might just stop a few of the media scavengers who’ve got a tight deadline to meet…

I pray we never end up on the list, we had too many aussies join the list last year:(B|
xj

"I wouldn't recommend picking a fight with the earth...but then I wouldn't recommend picking a fight with a car either, and that's having tried both."

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What else did you want to discuss that has not yet been covered, o most venerable smartass troublemaker?



It was the assumption that there can be a "last word" on this topic (or any topic), which bothered me.

You're open minded, so I'm surprised you disagree.
Coreece: "You sound like some skinheads I know, but your prejudice is with Christians, not niggers..."

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First I would like to thank you for replying to my thread.

I am aware of blinc and read as much as I can about BASE. I just know how some people can react to an outsider discussing how those who have passed away should be remembered.

In regards to breaking the list into years. I have read the list many times over in the past year and understand most of the lingo so I can follow it relatively easily. But I can see how a whuffo reporter could misrepresent the fact with the 30sec they spend looking at it. The easier it is to read the more educated they will be. Again I do not have any answers but I do think this is a factor of how the list is refered to by the public.

I like your idea of a front page. I did not know how to organise it but when you see a large list of people who have died it is easy to mistake they have all died because of BASE. Again misrepresenting the group.

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i see the idea in that BUT it effect me more as i look at a pic while reading,that way my emotions front each other and its not just somthing in a tekst it really happened to the person im reading about.


Quote

MT's spreadsheet does a good job of summarizing the incidents by type. It's easy to tweak the categories for any set of data you are trying to extract. I've been trying to keep my copy of it updated. I wonder if a downloadable, current version of it might not be a good thing to keep somewhere?

I don't know that putting the List on DZ.com is the best idea. I kind of like it having it's own, independent life.



Originally I did not want to suggest having the analysis and the tribute on a seperate site because it does make it more inpersonal and hence they become numbers. However this would be the easiest way to ensure both the learning and the remembering is done to the best extent. I agree that it is good to have nicks work as being something independent.

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