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base428

Remove the BASE Fatality List

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Would be nice if someone could run a survey on any given night/weekend...
Post your BASE jump numbers for that period of time... That would give an 'idea' of how many jumps are happening on a given date



I disagree. Most BASE jumpers I know don't even know or care about the BASE forums online.

Most of them are pretty active so at least with the jumper I know, this will be a very inaccurate survey. I don't have an alternative to offer, it's just very hard to keep track of an inherently secretive activity.

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Most BASE jumpers I know don't even know or care about the BASE forums online.



I'm confused. Jumpers don't care about forums, but they somehow find their way to the fatality list? And this list is mysteriously weeding out the bad ones? Usually the bad ones don't care about a fatality list anyway. I think everyone is overrating the list as some kind of necessary tool to review before they get into base. How many of you honestly read it BEFORE you started jumping? How many of you understood it?

If Joe Skydiver doesn't know the risks of BASE before he makes his first jump, is the list really going to help? However, the list is probably much more valuable to the amateur or experienced jumper because he/she can analyze the list and understand every aspect of it.

Either way, I think everyone agrees the list is valuable to US. Not THEM.
(c)2010 Vertical Visions. No unauthorized duplication permitted. <==For the media only

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I think everyone is overrating the list as some kind of necessary tool to review before they get into base. How many of you honestly read it BEFORE you started jumping?



I did, and I believe plenty more people did. And that was before Tom Aiello asked me to as part of his FJC.

In fact, I took a pen and for each and every accident that included enough information, I asked myself the question: "Could this happen to me?"

Some accidents on the list were on jumps more dangerous than others. Some accidents on the list were with gear that nowadays wouldn't be used anymore. This allows for a projection onto your own comfort-zone, and a re-evaluation of how dangerous you really feel base is, and how dangerous you can make it.

That doesn't mean that I know what the hell I'm talking about. On a long enough timeline, everybody's survival rate drops to zero ;). But I thought it was an interesting exercise nonetheless.

Cheers,

Jaap

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How many of you honestly read it BEFORE you started jumping?


I did. and it wasn't so long ago.
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f Joe Skydiver doesn't know the risks of BASE before he makes his first jump, is the list really going to help?


I did find it helpful and it did put things into perpective.

my 2 pesos
***Keep it fun, stay alive***
Safe swoops
Azul
Follow Orbita on Twitter @freeflyorbita

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A caveat first: I haven't read the whole thread and therefore I may be repeating someone here. But probably unlikely...

I really don't think the issue here is the list, but the current way the media works, and global communication.... We have an entirely sensationalist media and unfortunately this now has transferred to politics/government etc - just look at the UK news at the moment and Margaret. At the risk of sounding "preachy", this is something everyone should be fighting against, it is a cancer and undermines the fundamental aspect of being human: the ability to analyse and think rationally.

Taking the list offline would just be pandering to this, effectively adjusting BASE values to the current media trend. BASE is not about this, and even if we are the only ones portraying ourselves honestly, so be it.

I've been drinking - could you tell?
"If you can keep your head when all around you have lost theirs, then you probably haven't understood the seriousness of the situation."
David Brent

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You just made me think of an excellent followup question (to mangle someone else's dropzone.com tagline): How many fatalities has the Base Fatality List prevented?

The list might, as you say, be bad for the sport, but so are deaths. If the list has prevented one or more deaths (or even "just" maimings), that would make the list bad for the sport and good for the sport....

-=-=-=-=-
Pull.

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A caveat first: I haven't read the whole thread and therefore I may be repeating someone here. But probably unlikely...

I really don't think the issue here is the list, but the current way the media works, and global communication.... We have an entirely sensationalist media and unfortunately this now has transferred to politics/government etc - just look at the UK news at the moment and Margaret. At the risk of sounding "preachy", this is something everyone should be fighting against, it is a cancer and undermines the fundamental aspect of being human: the ability to analyse and think rationally.

Taking the list offline would just be pandering to this, effectively adjusting BASE values to the current media trend. BASE is not about this, and even if we are the only ones portraying ourselves honestly, so be it.

I've been drinking - could you tell?



I should add that I think the list should be presented rationally - it is a tool and not a news report (and I think it mostly is).
"If you can keep your head when all around you have lost theirs, then you probably haven't understood the seriousness of the situation."
David Brent

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A Saturday Night Live Sketch ?

So I don't Base Jump.. But, I will. And one of the first things I looked for was this list, actually A list. The Base Fatality List serves me good. I've read about all these different ways you can screw up. It showed me that this way of life must be respected.
If this list makes it harder, good because that means there are people who think twice about it.

I'm sure having that kind of information has benefited alot more then it has bad.

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....and now I've read the thread, and that bastard Northern hippo has made the point far more eloquently then I....

:P
"If you can keep your head when all around you have lost theirs, then you probably haven't understood the seriousness of the situation."
David Brent

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How many of you honestly read it BEFORE you started jumping?



I did and it was valuable in my understanding some of the risks involved in BASE. I even refer back to it when I read about past incidents so that I can have a different viewpoint on what might have happened.

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I read the list before I started BASE jumping, and still do to this day. I have a couple of friends on the list.
If people remark about the number of deaths there are, then you should stand up and represent your sport. Tell them that number is a world wide number, and it's over a course of 30 years.

I just saved a copy of the list, and if it is removed then I will put it back up on SONIC BEEF.com and keep it going.

Good work Nick!! Keep it going, dont take it down because some people perceive it to be morbid instead of informative. Don't polish it up so they get a warm fuzzy about it either. THIS SHIT IS DANGEROUS!
SONIC BEEF #1 BASE 708, NC BASE 3
SLI,IADI,AFFI.TIE.FAA Rigger, Single & Multi Commercial Pilot,CFI, CFII, MEI

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This has been an excellent thread, the first one in eons to hold me spellbound to the last post.

I totally disagree with Jason on this, even though I love him and Jen to death.

"The List" has been an invaluable educational tool as well as a memorial for our fallen brothers and sisters. I think it should be required reading for all FJC students, or even skydivers thinking about BASE. I believe that by educating, informing, and keeping track, we give some credence and stability to an otherwise shunned activity. Maybe other sports don't keep track of their dead, and maybe they should! I have learned something from each and every posting on "The List", and I was never more pissed when Erich went in by doing the EXACT SAME THING SKYPUNK DID!!!! Didn't he read The LIst? Didn't he learn from it???? That, to me, was the worst aspect of The List I've ever seen. To me, that is the main purpose of The List, to NOT do what someone else did, to their fatal detriment.

The press and the government can skew things in whatever manner they choose. It is up to us to provide facts and proof at every opportunity. Keeping The List points to a high level of responsibility; responsibility to educate, inform, warn, and to BE RESPONSIBLE for ourselves as jumpers.

I certainly hope that I appear at the bottom half of The List, having died from a heart attack from my 20th orgasm of the night. But if in fact I do end up on the top half of The List, my only prayer would be that some other jumper could live by learning from my mistake. To NOT be willing to show your face on this List points to a level of pride, nay, arrogance, that I don't think is appropriate in this activity. Sorry Jason, but I believe that right down to my toenails.

And Nick, you've known since Dwain died that I am willing and able to take over when you're done. You have done an amazing thing for BASE by creating The List, and it should continue to remain accessible to anyone that wants to see it.

I do agree that perhaps we should write up an explanantion of The List and why it was created, and what we intend for it to do. I definitely think we should take a wild-ass guess at how many SUCCESSFUL jumps there have been in contrast to the 85 deaths in 30 years. I think it would be an excellent thing to try to find out how many motocross riders or climbers have died in the last 30 years. By way of comparison, BASE would look a lot less deadly to the lay person.

Jason, don't let them fetter you! We do need to be respectful, educated, open minded, and willing to listen to any person or organization who approaches us. I don't feel we need to roll over and pretend anything. We value our List. We respect our dead. We learn from their mistakes. We immortalize them and revere their sacrifice. We do not put our heads in the sand and pretend it can't get ugly, even though this seems to be the American way these days.

Nick, I love you, and keep up the good work.
Jason, I love you, and keep up the good work.
Ah hell, I love you all! You are my family.

Peace,
Karen

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Jason,

Although I understand your goal, I think you might consider that burying the facts is abhorrent to ethical people. I know you well enough to know you are ethical, so I can't figure out where you came up with this harebrained idea.

Further, I think making an issue of what you allege to be Nick's obsession with death calls for an apology from you to him. But that's just my opinion, and you can do whatever you want.

Just remember, though, that the webpage you propose to impose strictures on belongs to Nick, and he, like you, can do whatever he wants, no matter what public pressure you bring to bear.

If it comes to a vote, then mine is that the webpage should remain as it is or as Nick may choose--without undue interference--to make it in the future. Although it now serves as an educational tool, it remains a memorial to those who have gone before. It would be a terrible thing for any of them to be forgotten.

rl

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How many of you honestly read it BEFORE you started jumping? How many of you understood it?
.



I read it beginning to end several times before I did my first jump. The things that I didn't understand I talked over with the people who would be my mentors when I was ready.

As far as the way it affected me, it really did make me think alot about what I was doing and it still does. I really do think and hope I have learned some invaluable lessons from the info there. ONe thing I learned from it early on was to get out of the skydiver mindset that blindly thinks 3,000 + foot walls are safe yet many on the list are from big walls etc. A very simple point but a valid one I think!?!? There is much more in depth stuff it has made me face and come up with systems etc to avoid.

On a lighter note I was just informed of a new object locally. Maybe a story in a few days!?!?/;)
SabreDave

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How many of you honestly read it BEFORE you started jumping? How many of you understood it?



JAson, you know I've never made a single BASE jump, but I've read the list so many times I can probally tell you everything you could ask me about it. I'd watch a cool wall wingsuit video and get psyched about BASE then I'd go and read the List and realize just how thin of margins there are and just how deadly the game is that you play. The List is one of the big things that have kept me from running off to a FJC and hucking myself off all sorts of objects around here. The list is a big service to jumpers, wannabe's and anyone interested in the sport. Removng it would be a huge disservice to those same people.
Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

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I believe the List is an important resource, in it's current form.

I believe the list helps to (a) dissuade overeager young jumpers, (b) spread valuable information, and (c) humanize and memorialize fallen jumpers.

I don't think restricting access is a good idea, because that would reduce the dissemination of potentially life saving information. I don't think de-humanization is a good idea, because that (a) reduces the memorial value, and (b) reduces the "sink in" on young jumpers reading.

I can't count the number of people I've seen in the last year who are just starting BASE and _really_ have no concept that it might, just maybe, be more risky than skydiving.

If the list saves even one persons life (by, say convincing them not to take up BASE), I think it's worth it. Even if it is the only thing that prevents legal access to National Parks in the US.

In my view, saving the lives of BASE jumpers is more important than gaining access to National Parks (or other legal objects).
-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

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Well said chuckbrown.

That's what you call taking responsibility for your own actions.

We have an evolving image that "WE" (meaning the BASE community) is helping to create. Jumpers give the "outside world" the ammunition to shoot ourselves down!!!!!

There are lots of great, ethically responsible jumpers out there. But there are also some dickheads too. This is what society wants to hear about. That is why they tune in or subscribe or buy.

I find it amusing that people will slag the media off and then go out and do something really stupid that the media end up reporting. DON't FEED THEM!!!!

HELLO - IS ANYONE HOME??? IS THERE A LIGHT ON IN THERE?????

When society sees professionalism, they will become less interested in mistakes when they occur.
Stay Safe - Have Fun - Good Luck

The above could be crap, thought provoking, useful, or . . But not personal. You decide.

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The list is maintained to honor and remember our friends and fellow jumpers, not to disrupt the business intent of certain individuals in this community. Putting up such a post to pressure an individual into complying
with anothers wishes is a seperate thread indeed, but Nick is an individual and a respected base jumper in the community. As Nick honors our fallen, Base jumping honors the individual and the individuals spirit and independence. We honor rebels and freedom, not censorship and peer pressure. We deal with reality, not imaginary beliefs and business corporate interests.

I am not a supporter of padding corners for others, or softening the world to make things more pallatable; I support the truth. Unless Nick is lying or reporting falsely he should continue to do as he wishes and pleases. Against the mainstream or against the commercial interests of the base parasites who sell mugs and t-shirts on websites and stand only to profit from suppressing truth, in order to garner greater public support.

People die in base, people get injured.Its a reality. Its our choice and our freedom to do so. The public doesnt need deception or sugar coating. It needs a lesson in taking responsibility for its actions in the real world. Trying to craft an impression that base is safe and death free is wrong and ridiculous. Keep the list up, Nick. Some of us still jump less than legal sites and make no profit from administering and "leading" the sport, which should remain non commercial. And some of us like having our friends remembered by many and all.

Good day.

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i'm definitely for keeping the list.

i also read the list before i started to BASE. and having been a skydiver, it at least helped me understand more of the dangers.

i also liked the ideas posted here about some modification, like Jaap posted about a better explanation of why it exists.

overall, i don't see any difference in that list, and the very public posting of deaths and incident forums concerning skydiving. i'm sure there are groups out there trying to ban skydiving as well... as it is a dangerous sport also, and could be construed as dangerous to the public... wouldn't want a helmet flying off your head and hitting a girl walking to her bus stop.:S

anyway, i'm getting off on a tangent... do what you will, i have no problem jumping at night.;)

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Hi Jason

Some quotes from our "feeder sport".

When you start a skydiving course, the theory instructor often says "you could die doing this activity".

When you sign the waiver it says (or at least should say) "this activity is dangerous".

If you are a tandem master your passenger usually sits in front of you. Your most obivous visual is the warning tag on the passengers harness " this is dangerous / death / injury / etc".

There can be excess social or trivial drible in the forums at times. Some people could not be bothered wasting their precious time reading through the crap in the off chance that they might find some useful information. A concise list is more interesting.

Also, most people are interested in death, Not just NDG as you stated. What happens at an accident scene? Traffic slows down so that the rubbernecking masses can see carnage. The news is full of death. They would not show it if they could not get ratings. Ratings are "won" from an interested public. If the public did not want to see death, they would not show it. Current affairs programs = death and grandmas getting ripped off, computer games = death and violence, movies = death and action and love, etc . .. . . . . Tsunami in Asia = many deaths and society (as opposed to govts) digs deep to help. If it was only homelessness, less help would have been provided. etc etc etc

More examples: I personally have never seen a TV story about rock fishing that did not include some references to death. I only see stories about motor races in other countries when there is a major accident.

The simple fact that an activity can kill will turn many people away from the sport. i.e - classic quote "I will never jump out of an airplane because it scares me". It may also attract people with inherent psychological abnormalities.

I am very interested in any data r.e. injuries & fatalities and the data is extremely useful for improving technique and technology.
Stay Safe - Have Fun - Good Luck

The above could be crap, thought provoking, useful, or . . But not personal. You decide.

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CASA - (Civil Aviation Safety Authority in Australia - equivalent to USA FAA) publish accidents and fatalities. Most motoring organisations publish statistics too. Other aviatoin sports publish incident reports. Many parachuting organisation publish lists too.

The only difference is the format and method of presentation. The list is a little more personal and less formal than lists from other sports.

The way I would like to see the list is in an incidentr report form format. If anyone wants an incident report form, email me.
Stay Safe - Have Fun - Good Luck

The above could be crap, thought provoking, useful, or . . But not personal. You decide.

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Hi Jason, respect ..

I think it a bit rich to suggest as you do in your starting post that Nick's List is responsible for the negative perception of BASE jumpers in the general public worldwide. You seem to infer that it's removal from public view will result in a better view of BASE worldwide as a whole. Again I think this is a pretty big call.

You can see (maybe) that most of the ppl posting replies here, your peers, are staunchly in favour of it's existance and mostly in it's current form. As some others have said there's a lot of other issues that BASE'rs need to address both in your country and elsewhere to have this mostly negative view of BASE changed.

Basically, BASE'rs need to lift their game in many areas and look inwards and answer the question "have I done absolutely everything possible in the way I've acted and the way I've pushed my colleagues/friends to act" before looking to blame one single web-page for the ills that have befallen BASE worldwide.

Also, let's remember that we will always be up against that which drives at the very heart of humanity and it's perception (and ignorance) of our sport - the fear of falling and the fear of the unknown.

Knowledge dispels fear and I feel that exposing the public to more knowledge on legal and competition BASE, and just BASE in general will eventually get us what we are looking for. It is already happening - slowly. Don't blame "The List" - it is too valuable a reference to lose. You give us nothing tangeble as evidence to back up your claim that it's removal will be a vast betterment - you only give your opinion which is not enough to get my vote for it's removal.

Also, whilst you say it's detrimental to BASE worldwide I really only see your agenda being the push for legal BASE in Nat.Parks in YOUR country. Don't let other countries lose this valuable reference for an agenda for which they have no gain.

Having The List made public is the only way it can really be kept as up-to-date as it is. The recent addition of #56 from Peuro Rico is an exaple of this.

Keep The List

Let's get a poll going.

Thank you for allowing me to vent.

G.
"Altitude is birthright to any individual who seeks it"

.

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Been thinking about this from another point of view.....
If people want ( and I dont think evryone does) BASE to be accepted, and therefore maybe help 'open' up a few objects ( or at least increase the chances of the owners of these objects providing consent to jump off)..........
The 'People' who make these activties 'acceptable' and drive that view forward ( Government,Media etc) are going to HAVE to know the 'stats'. The list provides a description of the times its gone wrong:( and as already stated viewed on its own provides a skewed take on fatalities during this activity
If you could reference that list to the 'approx' number of jumps made in the time period.....or any time period....this would reflect more accurately the 'risk'.
Thats evidence..and stuff you can work with.

Only problem about it being acceptable....is that it risks becoming mainstream........which risks more people entering unprepared....which risks another spike in the incidents /fatilities :(

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