Landed on my rear risers

[PeteW 0]

Finally got my own gear, main is a Safire 2 210 loaded 1:1. I've jumped it six times and I knew the guy I bought it from. The main Dom is 07 but it's still crispy with 100 jumps on it. I had a great jump. Reached up to pop the brakes and the right toggle come off in my hand. I'll be honest I spent a second just staring at it. My first thought was nooooo. I contemplated chopping it, I was at 3000'. I did a quick controllability check and decided I could land it. I practise flared six times or so. I was also at a boogie with 19 other Canopies in the air. I found my arms getting sore from constantly using the rear risers. I purposely set up long to give my arms a rest before flare. I flared like I had practised. Found that I levelled out but couldn't flare enough to slow down. Slid on my feet for a bit then ate shit. Got up unharmed. A rigger came out right away and showed me the other toggle was installed wrong as well. It popped off easy. He showed me the correct way to attach them. I'm thankful our dzo and one of the coaches I worked with really drilled into me the importance of learning my new canopy. Luckily I had practised rear and front riser turns a lot.

I feel what I did was correct for me and the gear I was flying. I'm curious thou, what would you have done? Cutaway or land it?

[riggerrob 558]

You made a decision and you walked away from the landing, ergo you made the correct decision.

Next time you jump a new canopy, practice rear riser flares (up high) during your first few jumps. That experience will help you decide well before you break a steering line/lose a toggle, etc.

[HapHazard 0]

PeteW

A rigger came out right away and showed me the other toggle was installed wrong as well. It popped off easy.

Who installed those toggles?

[PeteW 0]

For sure. Luckily the first two jumps I did hop n pops from 6500' and played around. Made my decision much easier.

[PeteW 0]

HapHazard

***A rigger came out right away and showed me the other toggle was installed wrong as well. It popped off easy.

Who installed those toggles?

Funny enough I saw the previous owner at the boogie. He asked how I was liking the rig. He was shocked when I told him the toggle popped off. He said he jumped it that way for years.

[T_C 0]

PeteW

Found that I levelled out but couldn't flare enough to slow down.

Rear riser input will cause a canopy to plane out, but not lose much forward speed - you're altering the trim with input to C & D lines. Excessive input will lead to an abrupt stall.

Take a canopy course, understanding the effects (& limitations) of inputs is pretty important in situations like this.

Good job on walking away.

[jumpsalot-2 2]

Toggles don't just "Fall Off" after "Years of Use". Sounds like they were not attached correctly ... rescently .......

Life is short ... jump often.

[Pobrause 6]

Could you replicate the method of attachement and perhabs make a photo of it? I'd really like to see what the previous owner came up with and add it to my collection

-------------------------------------------------------

To absent friends

[DvK 2]

riggerrob

You made a decision and you walked away from the landing, ergo you made the correct decision.

Next time you jump a new canopy, practice rear riser flares (up high) during your first few jumps. That experience will help you decide well before you break a steering line/lose a toggle, etc.

Can people please stop using this way of logic? In this case he made a decision, and got away with it. Probably he made a good decision for his situation, but people also make very, very bad decisions and walk away from it. As I'm sure you know, luck is a factor in this sport, people can do really dumb shit and walk away because they were lucky

I also wonder if PeteW knows how easily it is to stall your canopy on your rears, I hope he does :)

[pchapman 261]

PeteW

He asked how I was liking the rig. He was shocked when I told him the toggle popped off. He said he jumped it that way for years.

If you bought the whole rig, the canopy never changed risers I guess. And as you said, you had jumped it that way a number of times.

Were the toggles perhaps larks headed on in a conventional manner, but with the loop being able to be slipped off the tip of the toggle, rather than having to go the other way over the whole bulk of the rest of the toggle (as is proper)?

That's one case where it may be possible to have the line loosen up and come off the toggle when tension is off it. Although it is still surprising for it to happen.

[riggerrob 558]

DvK

***You made a decision and you walked away from the landing, ergo you made the correct decision.

Next time you jump a new canopy, practice rear riser flares (up high) during your first few jumps. That experience will help you decide well before you break a steering line/lose a toggle, etc.

Can people please stop using this way of logic? In this case he made a decision, and got away with it. Probably he made a good decision for his situation, but people also make very, very bad decisions and walk away from it. As I'm sure you know, luck is a factor in this sport, people can do really dumb shit and walk away because they were lucky

I also wonder if PeteW knows how easily it is to stall your canopy on your rears, I hope he does :)

.........................................................................................

DVK
I stand by my original logic.
I have seen far too many young jumpers questioning their decision ..... as they walk away from their first reserve landing. So I listen to their version of the story, and congratulate them on making a good decision.

Far worse is the two students how impacted at reserve line-stretch, because they hesitated on an important decision.
I would much rather repack a reserve that have a student hesitate on a decision.

From a personal point of view, I have broken a dozen-ish lines on first generation tandems and suffered more tension knots than I care to remember. I quit counting after a couple dozen tandem reserve rides. I also quit jumping first-generation tandems.
I learned new techniques from other TIs and developed a couple of my own new techniques for partial malfunctions. I have only landed one damaged canopy that I regretted (both center A-lines broken). Fortunately we walked away with bruises. So when (last week) a TI asked me to repack a reserve after he cutaway from a (single) broken center A line, I cheerfully repacked the reserve, inspected the main, spliced the broken line and gave him a sales pitch on a new line set.

At this age, I no longer get excited about broken lines. I ask myself "Is it steerable? Is it flare able? Will I walk away from the landing?"

These days I mostly jump tandems and whenever I get bored, I practice rear riser turns and rear riser flares - shortly after opening. Luckily, I have never been forced to land a tandem on rear risers, but know which types of tandem canopies I could comfortably flare on rear risers.

[PeteW 0]

I totally own the decision to land on my rears. I did a controllability check as soon as it happened. Did three or four flares, and decided I could land safely. I had also practised using rears on all my previous flights. I also made no attempt to be a hero and stand it up. I totally ate shit/plf'd. I flared on landing just like I did up high. So no worries of a stall. I considered it a good flying canopy, steerable and able to land safely. I thought long and hard about cutting away but didn't find it necessary. I also don't think I lucked out and walked away. Although I'm happy I did walk away completely uninjured. It makes me want to practise canopy manoeuvres more.

[bgrozev 2]

riggerrob

You made a decision and you walked away from the landing, ergo you made the correct decision.

This is very clear and unambiguous. As stated, it also applies to someone who just survived a round of Russian roulette, but I find it hard to believe you would actually suggest they made a good decision.

riggerrob

I stand by my original logic.
I have seen far too many young jumpers questioning their decision ..... as they walk away from their first reserve landing. So I listen to their version of the story, and congratulate them on making a good decision.

This is very different from the original formulation above. If the student made a good decision, why not explain to them the actual reasons for why it was a good decision?


The truth is, sometimes people walk away from bad decisions, and sometime they make all the good decisions and end up in the hospital anyway. I personally very much appreciate it when someone gives be feedback, whether it is positive or negative, and I try to incorporate it and improve my chances in the future. When someone just says "you survived, so it's all good", that doesn't help me at all.

[PeteW 0]

Still curious what would you guys have done? Cutaway or landed on rears?

[gowlerk 1,912]

PeteW

Still curious what would you guys have done? Cutaway or landed on rears?

The only thing I would have done differently than you is that I would have saved my arms for landing by using the still good left toggle to set up a left hand pattern, or at least avoiding turning right if the pattern was set.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[PeteW 0]

gowlerk

***Still curious what would you guys have done? Cutaway or landed on rears?

The only thing I would have done differently than you is that I would have saved my arms for landing by using the still good left toggle to set up a left hand pattern, or at least avoiding turning right if the pattern was set.

Lol I thought about that later. Sadly it was a right hand pattern.

[Deimian 43]

PeteW

Still curious what would you guys have done? Cutaway or landed on rears?

Now I'd have landed in rears and slide it (I can't really slow down horizontal speed on rears). With 50 jumps I didn't have the skills for it, so I think the right decision for me would be to chop it.

bgrozev

***You made a decision and you walked away from the landing, ergo you made the correct decision.

This is very clear and unambiguous. As stated, it also applies to someone who just survived a round of Russian roulette, but I find it hard to believe you would actually suggest they made a good decision.

Completely agree on that. Surviving a bad decision doesn't make it a good decision. That leads many times to complacency, which in turn leads some times to accidents. Being said that, I think that this line of thinking comes from not second guessing the decision to chop, and to encourage people to don't hesitate and follow their training. Which generally speaking, is a good thing to do.

[riggerrob 558]

I stand by my original advice.
I read all of the OP's account and understand his decision-making process.
He identified a problem and practiced rear riser flares well above reserve decision altitude. Above reserve decision altitude he concluded that he could survive a rear riser flared landing. The jump ended with him walking away from the landing.
I applaud his decision-making process.

[bgrozev 2]

riggerrob

I stand by my original advice.
I read all of the OP's account and understand his decision-making process.
He identified a problem and practiced rear riser flares well above reserve decision altitude. Above reserve decision altitude he concluded that he could survive a rear riser flared landing. The jump ended with him walking away from the landing.
I applaud his decision-making process.

I do not disagree with your conclusion. I disagree with the flawed logic which lead to that conclusion. This logic ("you walked away, ergo you made a good decision") is generalizable to other situations, in which it clearly leads to a wrong conclusion.

[Di0 1]

PeteW

Still curious what would you guys have done? Cutaway or landed on rears?

As with many things in skydiving: it depends.
It depends on winds, altitude, mood of the moment. :D
While I know I am perfectly capable on a landing on rears into the winds under ideal conditions, if I have a feeling that I am also landing off and totally hosed (so, I might have to downwind or use a flat turn to avoid obstacles), I'd much rather be under a fully functioning safe reserve. But then again. if I am already too low, then I know I'd rather take a rear riser down/cross wind landing in a tight spot than a low cutaway.

There is no "one size fit all" answer to some of this "partial" mals. It all depends.

Be altitude (and position) aware, know your hard deck, know your EPs.
Great job landing on rears. ;)

I'm standing on the edge
With a vision in my head
My body screams release me
My dreams they must be fed... You're in flight.

[timrf79 0]

IMO,
if you have a good canopy it is good to land it.
Chopping has the risk of a very rare, but possible, reserve malfunction

[PeteW 0]

It's great to know I can. Although I would rather not try it again lol. Everything was good at the time. I had altitude, clear mind, lots of traffic but it was manageable. The pattern was also luckily into the wind. Later that day an entire load landed downwind. And the spot was good. I agree thou if anything didn't feel good I would have chopped it for a flare able reserve.

[PeteW 0]

That was my thought too. It was flying normal except for the trailing brake line and toggle in my hand.

[Di0 1]

timrf79

IMO,
if you have a good canopy it is good to land it.
Chopping has the risk of a very rare, but possible, reserve malfunction

Yeah, but Pete didn't have a "good" canopy. He had a damaged canopy.
He decided to land it, all in all, I think it was one of the possibly "right" decisions.
Great job!
Had he cutaway, he'd be here telling the story if his first cutaway, in all reality, he'd still have walked away. That's another "right" decision. It's up to the person who's ass is under canopy, this would have seen another "cheer, buddy" sort of reaction though.
Freaking out and chopping at 500 ft: wrong decision, might have been an incident report.
Setting your pattern wrong and going long, downind and without the possibility of a flat turn? Who knows.
Again, he knew he was doing an "emergency" landing at that point so he was taking extra care in setting everything up correct, kudos.
But what I'm saying there might be more to it than just the canopy, your decision making process depends on your altitude and your position (in this order).
So answering the question "what would you have done in this condition", I can say "it depends". I was just trying to elaborate why.

I'm standing on the edge
With a vision in my head
My body screams release me
My dreams they must be fed... You're in flight.