mjosparky 3 #51 February 3, 2004 Quotethats classy lookin gear I must say. Looks better than that Dora the Exploer backpack of today LOL If someone could find one of old twill 24ft reserves made in the 1040s or 1950s, I would wear it by itself (no other chute) and take it into terminal any day of the week. Those were the chutes used in WW II..before ripstop was invented. I know where there is a white cotton harness of WW II vintage...maybe I'll bring it to Rantoul in August. Bill Cole D-41 Bill, Do you think it is wise to encourage people to jump the gear from 20 years ago. Most do not have the understanding and knowledge that you have amassed during your jumping career. Hell, I would bet most people do not know what you mean when you say "twill". With the availability of the better and safer designs, to jump old gear just seems foolish. jmo. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuteless 1 #52 February 3, 2004 Im just trying to make a point, that because it is"old" it might still be good if it was taken care of. SOME people think they have to have new everything. I'm told that at 71, I'm old...but I am still usable. Maybe if I hadnt had so many crash and burn landings, and had taken better care of myself, I would even be more useable. But maybe you are right...I dont wish to encourage anyone to just take any old rig and use it. Bill Cole D-41 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #53 February 3, 2004 QuoteIm just trying to make a point, that because it is"old" it might still be good if it was taken care of. SOME people think they have to have new everything. I'm told that at 71, I'm old...but I am still usable. Maybe if I hadnt had so many crash and burn landings, and had taken better care of myself, I would even be more useable. But maybe you are right...I dont wish to encourage anyone to just take any old rig and use it. Bill Cole D-41 Bill, At 71 you are just reaching you stride. At least you are not made of "Twill". The knowledge you have acquired in those 71 years is invaluable if people will just reach for it. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerquo 0 #54 February 3, 2004 A rigger may not repack the reserve unless the entire system, including the harness and container, is safe. Many riggers will not pack reserves over 20 years old. That is their choice. It becomes their liability. You also mention that the rigger said the pilot chute was weak, and the main risers were not airworthy. This being the case, the rigger should not pack the reserve unless the pilot chute and main risers were replaced, even if the reserve was airworthy. It sounds like the rigger may be exercising good judgement with your boyfriend's safety in mind. FWIW, I used to jump an X-210R up unti a few years ago. I unloaded it because of it's age and GQ's stated position that the canopy's service life was 15 years. I would recommend that your boyfriend do likewise. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skygirl1 1 #55 February 4, 2004 thank you for all the info...and WOW........I don't understand all the threads about diapers and so forth.........but I am a rookie so what do I expect....very intersting though...........I gave all the info I could to Bf.......I respect the rigger and his judgement.....and if it was me? I would take it in and get a second opinion or a new reserve.........but people do as they do........his choice....but I love learning and reading all of this..... thank you so much..... blue skies and safe landings skygirl1" Mean people SUCK!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
scottjaco 0 #56 February 4, 2004 QuoteIn Sweden you are NOT ALLOWED to jump with a reserve that is older than 20 years. Maybe there is a reason for us having this rule? People upgrade their gear when somthing better comes along that is an improvement over what they had before. Otherwise what is the point? We have already established that age doesn't effect a reseve canopy. A while back, having a 20 year limit on a reserve might have served a purpose. People were jumping round reserves, then the 5 cell reserves which lead to the 7 cell reserves. After the late 80's, the progression in reserve technology slowed down. Notice how nobody jumps with a 9-cell eliptical reserve made of ZeroP? If you buy a brand new reserve, It is still going to be 7-cell F1-11, just like the reserve you jumped 20 years ago. Sure, the manufactures use clever marketing but is it really that different? I'm no gear expert, this is just an observation, it sounds like rig manufactures want you to buy a new rig every 4 years! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiverek 54 #57 February 4, 2004 QuoteNotice how nobody jumps with a 9-cell eliptical reserve made of ZeroP? That woudl be counter productive... 9-cells fly faster (landing unconscious...), ZeroP is more difficult to pack, etc... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #58 February 4, 2004 >After the late 80's, the progression in reserve technology slowed down. There are more thoughts in the new Smart, Raven Max and PD-R's then the reserves of the 80's. Now construction is based more on creating canopies that will survive what the next generation of jumpers will throw at it. When the Raven was designed you only went head down to get to to the formation under you. No one really flew pointed that way the whole time. Wingsuits were unheard of and anyone who would design one was laughed off the DZ. How much have we changed in 20 years...Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #59 February 5, 2004 QuoteWe have already established that age doesn't effect a reseve canopy. Who is the we that established this "fact". In the history of the world, there has not been anything not affected by age in some way. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
scottjaco 0 #60 February 8, 2004 QuoteWho is the we that established this "fact". In the history of the world, there has not been anything not affected by age in some way. the USPA, the PIA and most importantly the FAA have no established limits on "age" for sport parachutes. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skipro101 0 #61 February 9, 2004 QuoteQuoteWho is the we that established this "fact". In the history of the world, there has not been anything not affected by age in some way. the USPA, the PIA and most importantly the FAA have no established limits on "age" for sport parachutes. Yea, and the Food and Drug Administration is still preaching outdated bullshit to kids in school. Just because some angecy does it or doesnt do it, doesnt mean its right. Not saying you dont have a point, just be carefull not to rely on other entites. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
alan 1 #62 February 9, 2004 QuoteIf you buy a brand new reserve, It is still going to be 7-cell F1-11, just like the reserve you jumped 20 years ago. Sure, the manufactures use clever marketing but is it really that different? Yes, they really are much different although it may not seem so. The airfoils are different from the typical Lissaman 7808, providing better performance. The canopies are trimmed differently and they are cut and sewn more accurately. Construction techniques have improved so that the canopies can withstand much higher load forces, yet have smaller pack volumes. The fabric is not just F-111 any longer as it has undergone many improvements over the years that have increased the strength and durability. The original F-111 fabric from the George Harris Co. has not been manufactured for over 10 years and even that had undergone at least seven improvements before the company was closed. The changes and improvements are there, they are just not as obvious as going from round to square or 5 cell to 7 cell. But I don't believe that it diminishes the importance. I agree with you, the progression slowed down during the 80's and 90's, but there are reserves available now that are much improved over what was available 20 years ago, you just have to look closer.alan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #63 February 9, 2004 QuoteA while back, having a 20 year limit on a reserve might have served a purpose. People were jumping round reserves, then the 5 cell reserves which lead to the 7 cell reserves. After the late 80's, the progression in reserve technology slowed down. Notice how nobody jumps with a 9-cell eliptical reserve made of ZeroP? If you buy a brand new reserve, It is still going to be 7-cell F1-11, just like the reserve you jumped 20 years ago. Sure, the manufactures use clever marketing but is it really that different? Scott, Where do you get your information from? 1. The progression of technology did not slow down. If anything it picked up. After going from round to square it was not as noticeable. 2. Do you know why no one jumps a 9 cell elliptical reserve made of ZP? 3. We discussed this before, there is a huge difference between a 7 cell reserve made 20 years ago and one produced today. And as "Alan" posted, F-111 has not been manufactured in years. What is used today is a LoPo type material about 0-3 cfm. Your Swift Plus 145 reserve, while loaded high for your experience, will probably save your life, but there are canopies out there today that will do the same thing with less chance of injury. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
slug 1 #64 February 9, 2004 >>We discussed this before, there is a huge difference between a 7 cell reserve made 20 years ago and one produced today. And as "Alan" posted, F-111 has not been manufactured in years. What is used today is a LoPo type material about 0-3 cfm. Your Swift Plus 145 reserve, while loaded high for your experience, will probably save your life, but there are canopies out there today that will do the same thing with less chance of injury.>> If I was just getting into the sport and buying "new gear" than that's what I would do. But since I 've been around for a while and I know that I can land my swift 5 cell I'm not concerned about using it again. I know it's not worn out due to being repacked If no one wants to buy a used swift regardless of their weight or jumping style or price that's their choice. If a super hot rigger doesn't want to pack a 20 year old reserve regardless of it's condition and history that's their choice, just like it's my choice not to do business with them. Yea I know they won't miss my business. But If I ever get newer gear or someone asks I'll tell them my opinion of that rigger and take my business somewhere else. Power to the pencil! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #65 February 10, 2004 Maybe we should only allow people to jump gear that was manufactured after they started jumping. Hee! Hee! For example, Strato-Stars were in production when I started jumping in 1977. Sure I put 300 jumps on my Strato-Star "back in the days," but do you think I would still jump it today? Hah! Hah! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #66 February 10, 2004 Quote>>We discussed this before, there is a huge difference between a 7 cell reserve made 20 years ago and one produced today. And as "Alan" posted, F-111 has not been manufactured in years. What is used today is a LoPo type material about 0-3 cfm. Your Swift Plus 145 reserve, while loaded high for your experience, will probably save your life, but there are canopies out there today that will do the same thing with less chance of injury.>> If I was just getting into the sport and buying "new gear" than that's what I would do. But since I 've been around for a while and I know that I can land my swift 5 cell I'm not concerned about using it again. I know it's not worn out due to being repacked If no one wants to buy a used swift regardless of their weight or jumping style or price that's their choice. If a super hot rigger doesn't want to pack a 20 year old reserve regardless of it's condition and history that's their choice, just like it's my choice not to do business with them. Yea I know they won't miss my business. But If I ever get newer gear or someone asks I'll tell them my opinion of that rigger and take my business somewhere else. Power to the pencil! Slug, The above post was not addressed to you but to a guy with around 150 jumps and very little time in the sport. I doubt if he has even jumped 7 cell much less one that is a 20 + year old design and only 145 sq. ft.(if I am wrong I apologize) When he posts information that had no basis in fact others might take it as the "straight dope" and make some bad choices. No where did I say that a canopy is worn out after twenty years or XX number repacks. The manufactures of some canopies are saying that and if they say it I have to go along with it. see FAA part 65.129.e If someone wants to buy a used Swift or any other reserve for that matter I could care less. All I am saying is there are far better options. Skydiving is an expensive sport and if a person is not able to afford to purchase current up today equipment maybe they should look elsewhere for the recreation. jmo SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pchapman 261 #67 February 10, 2004 QuoteMaybe we should only allow people to jump gear that was manufactured after they started jumping. Hee! Yeah, it's common for jumpers not to be enthusiastic about anything older than what was still seen on the DZ when they started. Jumpers are naturally wary of stuff they aren't familiar with or can't easily learn about from their colleagues. If one 'grew up' with a certain type of gear, one is likely comfortable with the level of risk associated with it. Same goes for riggers. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
scottjaco 0 #68 February 10, 2004 QuoteWhat is used today is a LoPo type material about 0-3 cfm. My Swift Plus was manufactured in 1993. Does anyone know if it is made of 0-3cfm or F111? Quote Skydiving is an expensive sport and if a person is not able to afford to purchase current up today equipment maybe they should look elsewhere for the recreation. Lets get back to reality for a minute. After I bought my rig which was used, I spent a few hundred bucks updating everything I and my rigger could think of to make it freefly friendly. 100 jumps later I bought a cypres2(when I could afford it). By your logic everyone should get rid of their Original Cypres because its older technology. Now, since I'm new to this sport, I bought used gear, with the idea that my next rig, presumably after a few hundred jumps, would be all brand spankin new gear with all the options! I didn't want to blow a ton of money on a beginner rig that I would grow out of in a year. Skydiving shouldn't be a yuppie sport. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
indyz 1 #69 February 10, 2004 QuoteBy your logic everyone should get rid of their Original Cypres because its older technology. An original Cypres is not substantially different from a Cypres 2. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
scottjaco 0 #70 February 10, 2004 QuoteAn original Cypres is not substantially different from a Cypres 2 my point Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #71 February 10, 2004 QuoteQuoteAn original Cypres is not substantially different from a Cypres 2 my point That was your point, not mine. You are the one that came to that conclusion. I would say that a FXC-12000 is old technology the Cypres, 1 and 2 being new. I would venture a guess that your reserve is F-lll. You are right, skydiving should not be a yuppie sport but that is what it is/has become. jmo As far as reality goes, if you survive in this sport as little as 10 years, you come talk to me about reality. The reality of this is, your reserve is your last chance to stay alive, why not make the best of it. Everything else is window dressing. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
scottjaco 0 #72 February 10, 2004 I've never flown my reserve, I don't want to. Even if it was a brand new PD 143R I would not look foward to landing it. I wish they would come up with a ZP 9 cell reserve that has a small packing volume and can be packed easily, ohh yah and no snivel please! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #73 February 10, 2004 QuoteI wish they would come up with a ZP 9 cell reserve that has a small packing volume and can be packed easily, ohh yah and no snivel please! You are a dreamer? What a hack are you expecting from a reserve? They yse low cfm material, because its the best for the pupose. If you would know that F111/low cfm material is behaving like ZP for a while, when its new. But in other sense low cfm is better in some aspects: easier to pack and more resistent against tears. The purpose of a reserve is save your ass even you are unconscious. Riding a reserve is not a fun jump.It shuld be safer than fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #74 February 10, 2004 QuoteI've never flown my reserve, I don't want to. Since you are jumping a Swift Plus loaded at 1.38, I don't blame you. If and when you do have to use it, you will for sure have a "No shit there I was" story.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyMan 7 #75 February 10, 2004 Quote've never flown my reserve, I don't want to. I have. QuoteEven if it was a brand new PD 143R I would not look foward to landing it. Every canopy manufacturer has a demo program where you can hookup a reserve as a main. Smart jumpers take advantage of these kinds of programs. _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
