TomAiello 25 #26 February 25, 2005 QuoteFlapping bridle is more apt to pluck the pin(s) loose than it is to shear off an entire velcro shrivel flap..... Yup. As a trivia question (or answer?) I was once told (by someone who was involved in the development) that this was one of the original driving factors behind the development of velcro BASE rigs (back when pretty much all jumps were hand held).-- Tom Aiello [email protected] SnakeRiverBASE.com Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
leroydb 0 #27 February 25, 2005 So at what point did 1 and 2 pin rigs catch on? When were they first used?Leroy ..I knew I was an unwanted baby when I saw my bath toys were a toaster and a radio... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 25 #28 February 25, 2005 QuoteSo at what point did 1 and 2 pin rigs catch on? When were they first used? Pin rigs were first used when BASE jumps were first made--because that was all that was around. Then came velcro rigs, then pin rigs came back sometime in the mid 90's. Honestly, I think that way too many people overlook the velcro rig. It definitely has it's place in every jumpers arsenal.-- Tom Aiello [email protected] SnakeRiverBASE.com Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
leroydb 0 #29 February 25, 2005 Can you go into depth? I personally have only jumped a velcro rig once, and it was on my first jump on someone elses rig. I know the standard answers, but why do YOU think it has its "place in every jumpers arsenal?" Now one thing that I like is, that when watching those with velcro jump, they usually open +/- the same altitude. I havent had a problem as of late with PC hessi, but can see the implication if you have additional pin tension, especially on a low alti jump. But on the flip, I have done pull tests with my mentor and have had as low as 4lbs on one pin and 6lbs on the bottom pin. One reason I ask Is that I might have a velcro rig that I might be jumping... Maybe for a water jump... dont want to get my pin rigs wet... lolLeroy ..I knew I was an unwanted baby when I saw my bath toys were a toaster and a radio... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 25 #30 February 25, 2005 QuoteI have done pull tests with my mentor and have had as low as 4lbs on one pin and 6lbs on the bottom pin. How did you do the pull tests? I've tested the tension on several rigs. In my opinion, the average tension is higher on a velcro rig, but the variability in the tension is much greater on a pin rig. If you test a pin rig on the ground, then take the same rig and put it on, curl up in a tight ball, and test the tension again, you're likely to get _very_ different results. On a velcro rig, on the other hand, the pull tension is actually quite consistent in various positions. I've seen pin opening force as low as 2 pounds--but as high as 22 pounds. Velcro, on the other hand, pretty much ranges 12-16 regardless of positioning. Which is really more important--having a chance that you will have lower tension, or having a consistent tension that you can count on?-- Tom Aiello [email protected] SnakeRiverBASE.com Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
leroydb 0 #31 February 25, 2005 Dont laugh, we used a fish scale That's We found> We could get super low pull pin pressure (4-6 lbs) but on the other hand, we had some pull tests, when curled up and de arched, as high as 12-16lbs. Now that particualr rig packed a tad loose. When I get a chance, I would like to do some more pull tests, this time on my gargoyle with a BJ260. I am sure it could be higher than 16lbs If I try.Leroy ..I knew I was an unwanted baby when I saw my bath toys were a toaster and a radio... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 25 #32 February 25, 2005 QuoteI am sure it could be higher than 16lbs If I try. Murphy's Law would imply that the highest possible pin tension you can create in tests is the one to worry about--not the lowest.-- Tom Aiello [email protected] SnakeRiverBASE.com Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
leroydb 0 #33 February 25, 2005 agreed, Knock on wood, My packjobs are usually pretty clean and the pin tension is usually low. I do see what you are saying though. So when you are doing somthing so-so low and you are not comfy with your twinpin packjob, a velcro rig might be a better choice? Also note that if I remember correctly, the velcro was opening at 12lbs?Leroy ..I knew I was an unwanted baby when I saw my bath toys were a toaster and a radio... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 25 #34 February 25, 2005 Quote...when you are doing somthing so-so low and you are not comfy with your twinpin packjob, a velcro rig might be a better choice? Not really. If you are very low, I'd go with pins (and spectra) and be absolutely sure you have the body position dialed to minimize pin tension. That's one of the learned skills involved in ultra low freefalls.-- Tom Aiello [email protected] SnakeRiverBASE.com Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
leroydb 0 #35 February 25, 2005 QuoteThat's one of the learned skills involved in ultra low freefalls. and i suspect one that only come with time and jumps so what are you saying then.... when would you use a velcro rig over a single or twin pin?Leroy ..I knew I was an unwanted baby when I saw my bath toys were a toaster and a radio... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 25 #36 February 25, 2005 Quoteand i suspect one that only come with time and jumps Yes. If you make those jumps at higher altitude (so if you screw it up it's no big deal), and use a camera to review them, you'll have more chance of getting the time to repeat the practice jumps.-- Tom Aiello [email protected] SnakeRiverBASE.com Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
leroydb 0 #37 February 25, 2005 thats one thing thats helped me with PC Hessi's, Well better said It has helped me in learning how to get my PC inflated ASAP after It is deployed.Leroy ..I knew I was an unwanted baby when I saw my bath toys were a toaster and a radio... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fab777 0 #38 February 25, 2005 That's it... I used a reactor 4, with wide and stiffened velcros. I don't think there's much risk of premature deployment. One needs to be very careful with the way the PC is held. A PC held with fabric out of the hand may turn you around or flip you over when airspeed is increasing. FYI, that jump took place in the famous swiss valley, at the yellow ocean: underhung, vertical way down to the bottom, no track required. That is a really good place for a first slider up jump. CyA Fabien BASE#944 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bennii 0 #39 February 25, 2005 what is your opinion in making the pin loop a bit longer on ultra low jumps to decrease tension? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DexterBase 0 #40 February 25, 2005 That is fine. You can lengthen the loop a bit to get lower tension or you can use a closing loop made of spectra. If you use a spectra closing loop, it's quite hard to get a high pin tension. I've tried all kinds of silly stuff and shortened the closing loop so that the rig would barely close. With the spectra loop, the pin would still pop before the rig would move. If you're interested in experimenting, I'll mail out some spectra closing loops to interested BASE jumpers in exchange for taking me to one of your local objects when I'm in your neck of the woods. Any BASE jumpers desiring their free set of "DexterBASE Rigging" spectra closing loops PM me with your address. (BASE jumpers outside the US will obviously be on a case by case basis.) First 30 inquiries will get them- that means I have to build sixty closing loops. No worries, they only take a minute to make. Edit: Oh yeah, Tom, I'll mail your out tomorrow I promise. They've been sitting by my sewing machine since the day we talked about them. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TVPB 0 #41 February 25, 2005 Lots of variables. Lots of NEW variables. Definitely a recipe for success. That is how they teach all outdoor sports. I remember when i did my first skydive: CRW rig, skysurf board, tandem passenger, tight demo landing area, no reserve, competition jump, prize money, etc. And when I did my first SCUBA dive I had: 120m deep dive, photography, solo, it was a cave dive, fresh muddy water, icy cold, etc. But hey, I lived..... No piisfish, you are not the only one questioning the logic. Is it a troll though??? But hey, he survived so it must be OK. Each to their own. When you start, think very clearly about risk management and sequential learning. Unless you only have 12 months to live, it is always better to learn a step at a time. This is true of high school mathematics, business management, investing, sport, etc. You can opt for the multiple step process but you ARE increasing the risk. TO maintain the level of safety, if you increase the risk you should increase the level of risk management. my $0.02 Stay Safe - Have Fun - Good Luck The above could be crap, thought provoking, useful, or . . But not personal. You decide. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JFK 0 #42 February 25, 2005 QuoteUnless you only have 12 months to live, it is always better to learn a step at a time. With 12 months to live I would definitely try to enjoy each bite of livfe even more than now and wouldn't want to spoil so short amount left. Quite scary first jump... Was it a first BASE or a first night BASE?JFK #1013 PM Me No Adrenalin.... No Fun! "Minds are like parachutes the Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hegs 0 #43 February 25, 2005 phil6086 you are looking to go in doing a 4 sec hand held 2 way on your first jump. how about you try a few double gainers into a pool then just snap one off your local E for your second one. i'd lose that 'mentor' of yours too. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BASE813 0 #44 February 25, 2005 can someone more able to write and transfer thoughts to paper post something that lists everything wrong with this first jump................ I have PM'd the original poster and had many PM's with others about this thread......... My whole "who thinks this is fucked up" is obviously confirmed - can someone write something sensible and comprehensive on why we think this........... IF you have a mentor that allowed you to have this firstt experience as a first jump - THEN FIND ANOTHER MENTOR! I decided to never post to DZ again - but this post scares me........ is this how US BASE is now? anyone and everyone? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phil6086 0 #45 February 25, 2005 I need to clear up a few of my the terms I used when I first posted the other night. This jump was a bandit jump, it was from 900' so it was decided to not be visible under canopy from 700'. It was a 2 way I pitched at 4 sec mentor pitched at 5.We didn't due crew we were just in close proximity to each other when we landed. Sorry if I caused any misunderstanding by my using wrong terminology. I sometimes due that even when skydiving. Now as far as my canopy skills 2 years ago took Rob Laidlaws course started being able to hit the Ps at xkeys pretty much every time and I've had too numerous to lists coach tips from the best canopy pilot at that drop zone. So I may not do 720 hook turns I have been known to swoop in at shut down dead center of the Ps at my home DZ. Remember this you all started this knowing less than I do and I'm not saying this with any disrespect but this is 2005 alot has changed on what is safe now and what was safe 10 years ago. And as far as caning my mentor don't think so he's a good skydiver with 2000+ jumps and he knows he dosen't know it all and he's willing to learn as am I. So if this post does offend anyone thats your bag not mine. Mind you there are alot of basers in my area and I dont just rely just one I rely on all that I can to stay safe and not be a statistic Maybe it wasn't safe what was done but only time will tell Mind you most wuffos think even going out of a plane at 13500 is stupid and they will never know the freedom we take for granted every time we jump. And one last partin experience I will share with you is 3 years ago I landed in a tree after getting down and feeling like an idiot one of the local jumping gods really gave me a hard time about it and made me feel like shit. I was new and took it as it came from god. Looking degected sitting on the bench this older guy came up and asked what happened and I told him what that other guy said. After going over my jump with me we discussed ways to avoid it in the future, never have done another tree landing, and his parting comment to me was the next time someone gives me a wrath of shit for a mistake I've made simply reply "what you've never made a mistake " and he left. That guy I found out now has some where in the vincinity of 20000 jumps so thats that. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skreamer 1 #46 February 25, 2005 Quoteis this how US BASE is now? anyone and everyone? Definitely not strictly a US thing. I know someone who went to Switzerland to learn to BASE jump in the valley. The guy teaching him had 50 BASE jumps. This is not an isolated incident. How many BASE jumpers in the UK do you know who didn't either A) suck it up and pay the money to do a 'slider-down' FJC in the states or B) find themselves an experienced local jumper to teach/mentor them? Everyone else tries to do it on the cheap via an unqualified inexperienced 'friend' or a big wall FJC that does not prepare for local conditions/objects. Will Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gus 1 #47 February 25, 2005 Hi David, Congrats on your first jump, it sounds like you did a good job, had fun and survived it. I don't think the negative responses have been directed at you so don't take them personally but do you understand where they're coming from? Your profile says you come from Florida and you said the jump was from 900 ft so I'm assuming this was an antenna. A short slider up delay like you did is probably the worst combination of delay and gear config in terms of heading performance - ie a 4 second slider up jump is more like to open off heading than pretty much any other jump. Had you thought about that? Have you discussed stuff like that with anyone? Add to that very little clearance from the object, the presence of guy wires, the strong likelyhood that you'd under delay and the fact that you don't really know how you're going to react on the exit point and that's why people are saying it was a bad idea. And that's ignoring the whole 2-way thing. It's great that you've got plenty of experienced jumpers around to get advice from. Get their thoughts on whether that was an appropriate first jump. Get your mentor's thoughts as well, he might have changed his mind after the fact. GusOutpatientsOnline.com Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Donfreeflyer1 0 #48 February 25, 2005 In project mayhem you choose your own level of involvement Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Donfreeflyer1 0 #49 February 25, 2005 Hey phil how did you like your jump? Did you live ? Did you get hurt? No ? Then screw all those sissys, they sound like old ladies. Did you feel like you were ready for that jump? Sounds like you did well for your first jump.Don't let anyone talk you into doing anything stupid or out of anything your ready for. I'm familliar with the "S" you jumped not an "A". I wish I knew everything like those old ladies maybe someday. Good luck with your double gainer off the local E !!! I just did my first McConkey off my roof in a straight jacket into my neighbors pool Its been hard to type this with a pencil in my mouth while in this damn wheel chair. In conclusion be safe learn about your gear and know "YOUR LIMITS" Time for my diaper change and sponge bath lucky me blue skys Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phil6086 0 #50 February 25, 2005 thanx for the reply don sounds like your truly nuts don't think I'll be jumping with you though. PS your right about the S Howd you know? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
