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shah269

Slider, pull down and stow.

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If it is of a huge concern, push it above your head before you cut away.



Dave, you know better than that. Don't advise people to f*ck around doing stuff during a mal other than chopping it.

I can see the fatality report now...."witnesses said the jumper appeared to be fumbling with his slider until impact".:o

Followed of course by the obligatory AAD disclaimer.[:/]
Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

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If you have a stuck toggle or one that is misrouted, you can still safely go through your EPs and you're not burning altitude as fast as you would have been in full flight during all of this. ...


I'm not sure I follow your reasoning. Wouldn't an immediate control check allow you to uncover the stuck toogle (or other steering line issue) sooner? (And, if one has to chop, wouldn't it be better to do so with the slider up, rather than pulled down behind your head?)



Sure it would allow you to find a minor malfunction like a stuck toggle sooner. However, there are a couple of things that make cleaning up your wing before going to full flight a benefit.

First of all, you're not moving through the sky at around twice the speed, in traffic, with your hands off the risers/toggles while you're stowing your slider. Secondly, chopping a canopy for a minor malfunction with a slider pulled down the risers is not a big deal. In fact it is basically a non-issue. If it is of a huge concern, push it above your head before you cut away.

Remember, this isn't a high speed malfunction, you have a little bit of time to trouble shoot. That and as someone goes higher and higher performance, doing all of this in full flight becomes a serious problem. If I cleaned up my canopy in full flight, after getting in the saddle around 4,000ft, I would be between 1000 and 2000ft by the time I got back to hands in the toggles.




Dave, sometimes you come up with good stuff. This is not one of those times. Youngsters across the board should disregard your post.

ALL you young jumpers...
-Your first priority on opening is to handle any immediate mal.
-Second is to clear your air space and avoid a potential collision.
-Your next priority is to ensure a good canopy.
-Housekeeping by screwing around with a slider is very low on the priority list. You can collapse it without letting go of the toggles. If you have been lead to believe that pulling the slider down behind your head increases performance significantly and if you insist on mimicking HP pilots by pulling your slider down behind your head even though it is completely unnecessary, then do it after you are sure you have a good canopy and you are absolutely positive that there is nobody near you.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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If it is of a huge concern, push it above your head before you cut away.



Dave, you know better than that. Don't advise people to f*ck around doing stuff during a mal other than chopping it.

I can see the fatality report now...."witnesses said the jumper appeared to be fumbling with his slider until impact".:o

Followed of course by the obligatory AAD disclaimer.[:/]


I didn't say put it back on top of the risers, just push it above your head. Even then it was only if it really bothered you, not a requirement. A stuck or misrouted toggle is a low speed mal. It is even a landable mal. It is a non-issue that you're making into a big issue.

I'm not talking about tying your shoe laces with a PC in tow, I'm talking about having a stuck toggle under an otherwise stable and good flying canopy. You typically have time to make good decisions if you're deploying at a reasonable altitude.
--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

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If it is of a huge concern, push it above your head before you cut away.



Dave, you know better than that. Don't advise people to f*ck around doing stuff during a mal other than chopping it.

I can see the fatality report now...."witnesses said the jumper appeared to be fumbling with his slider until impact".:o

Followed of course by the obligatory AAD disclaimer.[:/]


I didn't say put it back on top of the risers, just push it above your head. Even then it was only if it really bothered you, not a requirement. A stuck or misrouted toggle is a low speed mal. It is even a landable mal. It is a non-issue that you're making into a big issue.

I'm not talking about tying your shoe laces with a PC in tow, I'm talking about having a stuck toggle under an otherwise stable and good flying canopy. You typically have time to make good decisions if you're deploying at a reasonable altitude.


Doesn't matter. If a jumper - especially a young jumper - is faced with a malfunction (low speed or high speed) that requires a cutaway, the LAST thing they should do is include unnecessary steps that add extra time to the EP process.

There have been countless fatals and near fatals because the jumper got distracted by unimportant shit and let time get away from them.

Besides, if - as you suggested - a jumper is concerned about a stowed slider releasing, why the hell would they use that type of stowing devise to begin with???

On that note, I have never heard of a single stowed slider that has caused a problem during a cutaway anyway.
Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

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If you have been lead to believe that pulling the slider down behind your head increases performance significantly and if you insist on mimicking HP pilots by pulling your slider down behind your head even though it is completely unnecessary, then do it after you are sure you have a good canopy and you are absolutely positive that there is nobody near you.



I would strongly urge against pulling your slider to the bottom of your risers after you have released your brakes. It takes even longer than doing it with the brakes stowed, you run a greater risk of inducing a control system malfunction, and now you're doing it with more airspeed. This is not to say newbies should be collapsing their sliders and pulling them down behind their heads before they do a control check, but rather that they shouldn't bother pulling them down at all.

I would also strongly urge people who choose to simply collapse their slider and leave it at the top of their risers to use link bumpers or slink hats or something to keep the grommets at the top of the risers so they don't creep down and interfere with your control lines or access to your risers.

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Invest the very few dollars it costs to have slider bumpers installed, and forget about pulling your slider down behind your head. You're not getting that much out of the manuver, and it's a big time and attention waster, as well as several potential problems all rolled up into one.

There are several things I do in skydiving that I wish I could do without, but live with them because I 'need' them to do what I want, and stowing my slider behind my head is one of them.

Pulling the slider down introduces all sorts of problems, and with no real benefit to you, these are needless risks you're taking.

-Failure of your slocks or slider hold-down device. This will casue your slider to come up your risers, and potentially interfere with your unstoed toggles, or restrict your rearward vision.

- On a hard opening your slider can shoot past the links and lodge itself partway down the risers. It can unstow a brake in the process, or get tangled in loose extra steering line.

-You can unstow a toggle while attempting to pull your slider past them. Now you have one side above a stowed toggle and one side below an unstowed toggle and your canopy will be spinning. Have you thought through your actions in a such a situation, because time is not your friend when your canopy is spinning.

- If you have a brake fire, your slider is able to come past the links and get involved with the fun. One toggle is unstowed, and the slider may stop over top of the stowed toggle, preventing you from unstowing it to stop the turn. You'll have to pull the unstowed toggle to counter with one hand, and sort out the slider problem with the other (single) hand.

Consider the above, and consider that it's not a complete list. You say you'll never downsize from your 210, and I assume it's for safety reasons. That being the case, what is the benefit for pulling your slider down in a risk/benefit analysis of the situation, and is it greater than the (multiple) risks?

Forget about pulling your slider past the links until your canopy gets much, much faster. Do collpase it after checking for traffic, and leave it above the links for the remainder of the ride. Bumpers or PD 'hats' are very inexpensive, and the 'hats' come with excellent instructions so you can install them yourself. Have a rigger double check your work, or just have a rigger do it for you. Total time for a rigger to install on an unpacked rig should be about 12 mintues.

Doing so will remove the need to even consider any of the above scenarios, or the issue of when to deal with your slider. If it remains above the links, it will have no effect on a controlability check collapsed or not. Leaving your slider up will simplify your canopy ride considerably over pulling it down.

(By the way, not installing bumpers and just not pulling it down is not a solution. The bumpers are what makes sure it never comes down. Just because you don't intend to pull it down doesn't mean it can't get there itself if there are no bumpers. It can and will)

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At what canopy size, loading or other factors do you consider it is worthwhile to bring the slider down behind the head?



There's no exact line in the sand where one side is slider up and the other side is slider down.

In general, I would suggest that unless you're swooping, you probably don't need to pull your slider down in any case. Even on a faster canopy, unless you need the flexability of being able to better manipulate the risers, pulling the slider down isn't needed.

In fact, the faster your canopy the greater the risk. A bunch of things can go wrong with a slider that can get to your toggles, and higher WL just mean fatser spinning when shit does go wrong.

Even on a faster canopy, a collapsed slider will create little drag up at the links, and whatever drag is does create you can just deal with. If it's always there, you'll never notice it. Again, if you're not swooping, what difference does an extra 1/2 mph of airspeed make anyway?

Even if you disagree with the above, a Triathalon 210 loaded at less than 1 to 1 is certainly on the 'slider up' side of the line. Let's remember that drag increases with the square of speed, so the inverse is also true. The slower the canopy, the less drag the slider will produce anyway.

I've had to mess with slider/toggle weirdness too many times to reccomend it to anyone who doesn't really need it for one reason or another. I fly 99% of my landings on rear risers, so I need to be able to manipulate them independantly from each other, and the slider limits that ability.

Having a slider above the links doesn't prevent you from using or landing with the rear risers if you need to. You can still pull them down symetricaly to rear riser flare if you have to (or want to). I rarely pull my rears straight down or symetricaly, so the slider needs to be down for me.

Like I said upthread, I'd leave the slider up if I could. I also miss the floaty nature of my Stiletto, but deal with the ground hungry Velo because I like to swoop beyond what the Stiletto can offer. I also dislike jumping camera wings, but need them for some of the work jumps I do. My life would be easier without all of the above, but I also wouldn't be able to do the things I do without them. I just want people to be clear that some things are a comprimise done out of nessecity, and not something you should do when there's no real reason for you to do them.

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One factor to make it worthwhile to bring your slider down below your head is VISION. With it brought down your field of vision is enhanced by a XX%

Also if you are shooting photo's helps keep it out of the way
For info regarding lift ticket prices all around the world check out
http://www.jumpticketprices.com/dropzones.asp

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One factor to make it worthwhile to bring your slider down below your head is VISION. With it brought down your field of vision is enhanced by a XX%

Also if you are shooting photo's helps keep it out of the way



This isn't true in all dimensions. It will enhance your field of vision in the dimension above, in front (and to the side) and will restrict your field of vision in the dimension below, behind (and to the side).

If you want a larger field of vision in all dimensions (except straight above) you'll need a removable slider. This will also have a nice effect on filming side-mount under your canopy. No more slider covering the footage.
Blue skies!

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One factor to make it worthwhile to bring your slider down below your head is VISION. With it brought down your field of vision is enhanced by a XX%

Also if you are shooting photo's helps keep it out of the way



This is a myth. If you leave your slider above your links, it only restricts your view up and to the rear, and guess what, so does your canopy and there's no way to eliminate that.

What is true is that if you pull your slider down past the links and do not secure it, the slider will limit your vision directly back, and is more likely to interfere with your head. That's the reason that if you pull it down it also needs to be secured.

However, leaving it above the links remains the safest way to handle a slider. Pulling it down has the risks I outlined above (along with the time and effort it takes) and jumping a removable slider has it's own risks with mis-rigging and failure of the release mechanism.

This is another one of those areas where everyone thinks you 'need' to pull your slider down, but that's based on all of the 'cool' swoopers doing it, and everyone wanting to be cool. I have 1000's of jumps leaving my slider above my links, and they all involve swooping and shooting video, with a good number of them with a full size, full face, top moutned 8mm video camera.

You know what the slider does up there? Nothing. Nada. Zip. It just sits there, like it's suppsed to. It doesn't move, or go anywhere, or touch anything it's not supposed to. It's the least work, and the least invasive way to handle it, and the one that most people should use. Of course, common sense never plays much of a role in skydiving anyway, so people will keep doing what they do.

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I would strongly urge against pulling your slider to the bottom of your risers after you have released your brakes. It takes even longer than doing it with the brakes stowed, you run a greater risk of inducing a control system malfunction, and now you're doing it with more airspeed.


Let's discuss...
Those two statements seem to conflict.
I believe that it's much more likely to induce a control system mal if the brakes are set when pulling the slider past them. Pulling the slider past set brakes can, and has, released one toggle during the process whereas that can't happen if the brakes have already been released. Relative ease shouldn't fit into the equation, IMO.

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This is not to say newbies should be collapsing their sliders and pulling them down behind their heads before they do a control check, but rather that they shouldn't bother pulling them down at all.


So, to re-phrase....(if the newbie collapses the slider) do a control check and then pull the slider down. That conflicts with your previous statement also. FWIW, I totally agree with the "they shouldn't bother pulling them down at all" part.

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I would also strongly urge people who choose to simply collapse their slider and leave it at the top of their risers to use link bumpers or slink hats or something to keep the grommets at the top of the risers so they don't creep down and interfere with your control lines or access to your risers.


Now THAT, I totally agree. But it's worth noting that we are talking to young pilots or "normal" pilots and not HP pilots with this.


I like the way I worked "normal" into the conversation.
:D:D:D
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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Forget about pulling your slider past the links until your canopy gets much, much faster.



At what canopy size, loading or other factors do you consider it is worthwhile to bring the slider down behind the head?



The size, loading and other factors that would be leading you towards swoop competition.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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Let's discuss...
Those two statements seem to conflict.
I believe that it's much more likely to induce a control system mal if the brakes are set when pulling the slider past them. Pulling the slider past set brakes can, and has, released one toggle during the process whereas that can't happen if the brakes have already been released. Relative ease shouldn't fit into the equation, IMO.




It's a lot harder and takes a lot more time to pull down your slider past your toggles if they are not stowed. I have tried it before and decided that if I unstow my toggles first then I simply won't be pulling my slider past them and will just collapse it only. I have accidentally released a toggle while pulling the slider past it, but I was paying attention and realized what was happening and simply finished pulling the slider past the other toggle and and unstowed it right away to stop the spin. As stated by others this is not something for low time jumpers.

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I would strongly urge against pulling your slider to the bottom of your risers after you have released your brakes. It takes even longer than doing it with the brakes stowed, you run a greater risk of inducing a control system malfunction, and now you're doing it with more airspeed.


Let's discuss...
Those two statements seem to conflict.
I believe that it's much more likely to induce a control system mal if the brakes are set when pulling the slider past them. Pulling the slider past set brakes can, and has, released one toggle during the process whereas that can't happen if the brakes have already been released. Relative ease shouldn't fit into the equation, IMO.



If your excess brake lines are well stowed and your risers are in good shape (I know, big "if") there's really nothing for the grommet to get caught on as you pull the slider down. I put my index and middle finger on either side of the lines above the grommets and gently rock them them back and forth as I pull down. The toggles don't even flinch and I can easily feel what's going on which allows me to keep my eyes moving around the sky. If I pop my brakes, now I have two tabs on the toggles (or a tab and a pin, or one tab that partially unfolds, depending on what make of risers we're talking about) that I have to re-stow or risk getting caught on the grommet as I try to get them through the slider, all the while I'm cruising around in full flight, unable to pay as much attention as I'd like to where I'm going.

Which leads into another great point that I can't repeat enough... stow your damn excess brake lines people. If your risers don't have a dedicated place to stow your excess brake lines, add something with the help of a rigger or get new risers because yours are broken. Slink tabs, hats, bumpers, loops, your thumbs, etc. may all seem like they have their own purpose, but in reality they're all just doing one thing and that's waiting to get your unstowed excess brake line hitched around them.

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This is not to say newbies should be collapsing their sliders and pulling them down behind their heads before they do a control check, but rather that they shouldn't bother pulling them down at all.


So, to re-phrase....(if the newbie collapses the slider) do a control check and then pull the slider down. That conflicts with your previous statement also. FWIW, I totally agree with the "they shouldn't bother pulling them down at all" part.



All I was trying to say with this is, "don't read my post about not pulling the slider down after a control check and conclude that you should always pull it down before the control check, conclude that you should just leave the damn thing up there."

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I believe that it's much more likely to induce a control system mal if the brakes are set when pulling the slider past them



That's a negative ghostrider. I have several thousand jumps pulling the slider past stowed toggles with no problems. I have maybe a dozen jumps where I had a brake fire (not related to the slider) where I countered by unstowing the other brake. Pulling the slider down on those jumps was a chore, and took easily twice a long as when the brakes are stowed.

The problem with unstowed brakes is that the toggle is free to hang as it sees fit, and if that's not inline with the riser, you need two hands to thread the loose toggle through the grommet as you pull the slider down. Repeat for the other side.

When the barkes are stowed, everything is secure and inline with the riser. The trick I use to to put my first and middle fingers on top of the grommet, and use my thumb to hold the top of the toggle in place. I pull the grommet down until my thumb is partway through the grommet, then remove my thumb and finish the job.

There are some caveats, not to the stowed/unstowed argument, but to the pull the slider down at all argument. One of them is that the jumper is experienced enough and has the judgement and presence of mind to do the job correctly, and not just blindly yank down on the slider. The other caveat is that the risers/toggles need to be properly maintained and properly packed. Any lacking in either area will add additional risk to pulling the slider down.

Again, these are all reasons that unless the slider will limit the movement of your risers while swooping, there is no reason to pull it past the links. All of the concerns voiced in this thread disappear 100% if you install bumers and leave it up there. Those same concerns return in full force if you jump without bumpers or intended to pull the slider down, there is no middle ground or halfway solution, it's either all or nothing.

If you choose 'all', make sure you have a good reason for adding a dozen (or more) potential problems to your canopy ride and landing. Looking cool is not a good reason.

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Pull, look around quick, look up to assure all is well with the parachute, collapse slider and pull down and then do a control check?



my procedure goes like this.
Deploy, check for other canopies, check for other canopies, check that my canopy looks good, locate Landing area. decide what I need to do to get to landing area, either turn canopy back towards landing area, or face into the wind using rear risers. Then I collapse and stow my slider, release toggles.

You want to make sure your not flying away from the DZ while you are messing around with your slider.
Yesterday I watched a novice jumper fly way down wind while he was busy stowing his slider. He ended up landing off. All he had to do was turn his canopy into the wind before stowing his slider.
But hey, we were all happy to drink the beer he had to buy for landing off.



You missed "check for other canopies" a few dozen more times. A canopy collision is far more likely to kill you than landing off or an uncollapsed/unstowed slider.
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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Quick question and sadly I forgot to ask my rigger or those at my home DZ.

Yesterday was the first time I jumped my own parachute, a 210 Triathlon, it is equipped with a collapsable slider that can be pulled down.

Just want to make sure I'm flying safely.

Pull, look around quick, look up to assure all is well with the parachute, collapse slider and pull down and then do a control check?

Also how does one sow the slider behind ones head? Am I missing a trick?

Thanks!

ps
yeah she's fun! and oh my god so much better more fun and easier to land than the Navigators I was use to....but...oh wow does she "sink"



http://www.icaruscanopies.aero/maintenance

"Dropping the Slider"
"If you are using a class 3 or below (below 1.25 PSF) this gain will be minimal and possibly not worth the complication ."

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=466420;search_string=slider%20steering;#466420

"The official report from Bryan Burke will be posted tomorrow.
I can tell you that Holly never stowed her slider. Hol had slinks. The slider interfered with her steering lines causing a finger trap."

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1049120;search_string=slider%20face;#1049120

"I was at the dropzone the 4/16 - 4/18. A witness to it said that he was coming in for a landing and his slider which he had under his chin came up into his face while he was about to land and he reached up with his hand and pulled it out but he had toggles in his hands controlling his canopy, so he had a low turn. My condolences to the family."


Ask yourself is it really worth it to drop your slider?

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Everyone,
Thank you for keeping this thread professional. I greatly appreciate it.
I for one have learned much from this discussion and will discuss it with my mentor and instructor.
Again.
Thank you.
Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay.

The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools!

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