BLACK BANDS PRESS RELEASE

[K763 0]

I don't get it.
Certainly there are people out there with far more jumps than me that use Black rubberbands on their tailgate without problems, but the potential problem is indisputable, and so very easily avoided.

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I strongly disagree that a black band, used appropriately on a tailgate, creates an "indisputable problem." There is no evidence to support this statement, in my opinion.

Why would you endorse using something that might hang up and kill when an alternative is readily available?

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Again, I see the black band getting demonized because a few people didn't know how to use them, didn't know what they were jumping, and didn't ask questions about their use. That is the point of my continuing discussion.

TAKE RESPONSIBILITY! I see people using the black band as a convenient salve for the fact that they made a very poor decision and almost died from it. And even if you stop using black bands but still remain unteachable, you will find other ways to get yourself into trouble.

Is the inconvenience of replacing a rubber band that great?

Of course not! I'm surrounded by pounds and pounds of every type of band imaginable. It is the easiest thing in the world for me to pick a handful of something else. I'M BESIDE MYSELF BECAUSE YOU SEEM TO BE MISSING THE POINT!

BOGGLED INDEED!!!!!!!

[Faber 0]

Sorry Karen it WASNT my intention to start a wich hunt at all sorry if it looks like that

What i wanted to point out were that there were an incedent more whith black rubberbands.
Yes i do agree that it were a packing erro(larkshead and 3 wraps if i rember correct) but im sure that the fact that it were a black rubberband it also were too strong.

Again sorry didnt wanted to "hunt you down" I do like most of your oppinions and i truly respect you for the person you is.

I still warn against ANY use of the black rubberbands in the BASE envioment.

Stay safe
Stefan Faber

[KidWicked 0]

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P.S. On the Keener Material Safety Data Sheet for natural rubber, I got tickled by the "Cleanup Procedures"

To wit:

CLEANUP PROCEDURES:
Sweep, shovel, vacuum into container for disposal. Incinerate or landfill in accordance with all applicable environmental control regulations; not a hazardous material.

Bring out the shovels and rakes!

Coreece: "You sound like some skinheads I know, but your prejudice is with Christians, not niggers..."

[NickDG 23]

Re: Black Bands . . .

Hi Karen,

Don't let the "Johnny Jump Latelys" get on your nerves. They don't realize the time it takes to figure things out in this sport. You and I are the only ones that know what your job is like. You are the bumper that takes all the hits. After watching you the last few years, I'm very very proud of you.

Tell Todd I said you deserve a raise . . .

NickD BASE 194

[KidWicked 0]

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Don't let the "Johnny Jump Latelys" get on your nerves. They don't realize the time it takes to figure things out in this sport.

That's rather presumptuous of you, Nick. You're hardly unbiased in this situation, and all the "johnny jump latelys" should be made aware of your past relationship with BR.

Coreece: "You sound like some skinheads I know, but your prejudice is with Christians, not niggers..."

[Faber 0]

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They don't realize the time it takes to figure things out in this sport

sure people does,but as facts are out (specialy in the dangerarea)then people should notice.
The fact of Black rubbbands has been out for at least 1,5 year now as i rember(thinking at treads at Blinc).

I do belive that Todd,Karen and other manufactors does a great job.But getting feedback is important for them,no matter if its good or bad,if a compagny dont takes it then theyre soon off peoples mind(not saying this cause people not to buy BR,atleast i will continue to buy by them.).

Stay safe
Stefan Faber

[TomAiello 25]

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I have not heard of one single instance of this, so I'm confused as to why everyone is so adamant that the black bands on the tailgate is a bad idea. Please enlighten me; I need this information. Thank you.

I know of four instances in which black banded tailgates have hung up. One in Belgium, one in Australia, one in Twin Falls, and one in the PNW. In each of these cases the rubber band was girth hitched (larksheaded) to the tailgate, and the wraps of the rubber band were inboard of the knot, so the rubber band hung up on the knot holding it to the tailgate. In three of these cases, the jumper landed on land with minimum incident under a bow tied or still inflating (after clearing the hangup) canopy. In one the hangup cleared with sufficient altitude for a normal landing.

I don't know that a brown rubber band would have broken easier and not hung up in these situations, but I bet it would have.

Does anyone have the link to the photos that CRWper (I think?) posted on BLiNC? I don't remember if that was a black band or not. That report was quite detailed, though, as I recall.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[TomAiello 25]

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I will be changing the Multi Sheath stow bands in my containers for the beige "barely there" bands, however.

I've been using large rubber bands (the "other" standard skydiving size), cut in half lengthwise, to hold my multi for several years without incident. Do you have any thoughts on that?

Thanks!

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[TomAiello 25]

Hey, ease down there. BR is doing their best to notify people, and we all know the risks when we jump. Let's not let this thread turn into either a witch hunt or a flame fest.

Every BASE jumper is some part rigger, some part test jumper and some part madman. That's just the way the game is played.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[DexterBase 0]

KidWicked... Who are you? Feel free to PM me... or feel free to remain anonymous.

[DexterBase 0]

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Every BASE jumper is some part rigger, some part test jumper and some part madman. That's just the way the game is played.

I like that.

[BASE813 0]

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Every BASE jumper is some part rigger, some part test jumper and some part madman. That's just the way the game is played.

I like that.

another nugget..............

[DaveO 0]

Hi KT,
I see you have been busy at work!

Give'm HELL KT
D.O.

"When it comes to BASE, I'll never give advice, only my opinion"

[JohnnyUtah 0]

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I strongly disagree that a black band, used appropriately on a tailgate, creates an "indisputable problem." There is no evidence to support this statement, in my opinion.
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I have not heard of one single instance of this, so I'm confused as to why everyone is so adamant that the black bands on the tailgate is a bad idea. Please enlighten me; I need this information. Thank you.

Karen,
I come in piece.
Here is why I think everyone is so adamant that the black bands on the tailgate is a bad idea.

It seems to me that the indisputable problem is that if a very slight human error does occur (such as putting a wrap behind the larkshead or 1 too many wraps), then the black bands are unforgiving (in the sense that they wont break as quickly in the case of a hang-up).

Im sure you are very careful about how you wrap the black band and chances are you will never have a problem with using them on your tailgate. But wouldnt you rather have everyone else out there in BASE land using a more forgiving rubber band in case they wrap the band in error?

I think we have learned as a community that hang-ups do happen and its much better to have a beige band for such occurrences because they break much easier. The band breaking (in time) could be the reason someone walks away.

Have Fun, Don't Die!
Johnny Utah
My Website
email:[email protected]

[JohnnyUtah 0]

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I dont birther to find the treads but guess people should search under "larkshead" on Blinc im sure youll find some about this.

Here is a Blinc thread relating to this topic====>>===>>
=======>>>>Its right here<<<++++==========

Have Fun, Don't Die!
Johnny Utah
My Website
email:[email protected]

[dride 0]

You know what is strange to me.....this whole thread about using black rubber bands started with a multi stow hang up in Moab at the Turkey Boogie. Not one person has mentioned that this situation was complete user error.

Now, I was born and raised on the black bands with my multi and tailgate. I've used them CORRECTLY on both, for the last 130 jumps on anything from a 270' crane in the middle of a busy urban area to the big walls of Norway. I know of several jumpers with hundreds of jumps that have used them CORRECTLY on every jump and have walked away safe.

I'm not saying these little pieces of rubber are, or should be the industry standard for the next few years. My point is that we need to (and I'm not ripping on the guy that packed the rig in question) recognize that human error takes place all the time. Like Karen said, we need to take responsibility for our actions.

Someone dying because of a f**king rubber band is not cool, but it's time this new generation of BASE jumpers steps up to the plate and takes some f**kin' responsibility. Learn every aspect of the jump from the pack job to the landing. If you don't know ASK!!!!

[basehoundsam 0]

I agree that people and especially myself(as I'd like to live till tomorrow), need to pay attention, I think the point some people are trying to make is that every "controllable" part of a jump needs to be made as "safe" and "forgiving" as possible in case of user-error, or just plain bad luck or probability.
I spent many years cave-diving,which is another unforgiving sport in a harsh environment. Every part of tech-diving is filled with redundancy and simplicity. The weirdest things can happen when you try it over and over and over again. All it takes in a pack-job is perhaps a fold at the wrong place to roll over a larks-headed. Eventually given enough time...... everyone will have an issue with any piece of gear that is not "Fool-Proof"......... unfortunately it's not fool proof, until enough people die being a fool. In the big picture........ sounds pretty foolish.....

Jay Epstein Ramirez
www.adrenalineexploits.com

[Rauk 0]

"Someone dying because of a f**king rubber band is not cool"

You're telling me... bottom line for me is, why even use a rubber band that can possibly hang up? Done right, yes, it will work fine, hundreds of times even. I have been using masking tape for a lot of things lately, and that is pretty hard to f*%k up.

They used to use rounds...

oh, and it was pleasure at the 2005 boogi... ehr 2004
until next time

[K763 0]

Hi Johnny, I also come in Peace (not piece, not now that my bones are all knitted together again...)

I totally agree with Johnny's thought process here. We do need to have EVERY detail of every jump on our side, including the bands we use on our tailgates. I have agreed with this school of thought since day 1 of BASE jumping.

The reason I put up such a fight over it was clearly expressed by dride (who ever you are, thanks!) that WE NEED TO TAKE RESPONSIBILITY for ourselves when jumping. My major issue was that the people that had problems (the three that I know of) were using the black bands incorrectly, therefore causing their own problems. Pointing the finger and blaming the black band, or the Multi, for that matter, is NOT the way to save your life. The way to save your life is to accept responsibility, remain teachable, know your gear, know how to pack appropriately, inspect your gear, and no when to say NO to a jump that you REALLY want to do. And even when all of those factors are correct, you can still die, BECAUSE YOU CHOSE TO JUMP OFF A CLIFF. What are you anyway, completely stoopid???? (Whuffo reaction).

I love you Nick DG, and DO, (where ya been, DO? I miss hearing from you!!!) thank you for your support on this freakfest. It is hard to be the one that comes under fire when the fit hits the shan.

I would have LOVED to have seen that rig before it was jumped. I would have been all over that like flies on cowpatties! I know the owner of the rig, by the way, and when I see him he's gonna get a large piece of my mind and the sharp edge of my tongue. Ditto for the guy that borrowed the rig from the owner. (Which wasn't the guy that jumped it.)

But just to make a point to Johnny, if a guy is habitually making "slight human errors" on his business in BASE, I do believe his days are quite numbered. Also, it usually is NOT just one slight error that causes a serious incident; it's usually a string of things that go wrong to add up to the total. I think it's important for us to not be complacent and allow slight human errors to creep into our systems. If we do, we're setting ourselves up.

All in all, I believe this was a very valuable thread. I would like to thank Tom for his excellent moderation on this thread...(Tom, this must be your full-time job!) That being said, I would just like to remind everyone that we manufacturers/employees do NOT have the time to spend on these forums to address every issue. Please contact your manufacturer directly when you have concerns.

I look forward to seeing most of you on the edge someday soon.

As always, be safe, have fun, and soft landings.

K

[lifewithoutanet 0]

Apologies to all for the late entry onto this thread, but my defense of Karen and BR is overdue. I am responsible for the PC tow that my friend had. I've caught up on the thread and there may still be some who disagree with me (however unlikely), but I believe myself to be responsible. As luck doesn't run out all at once and it's typically a sequence of mistakes that results in a greater one, this one starts with my departure for Moab on Friday morning.

On Friday night, I was packing my rig in the hallway of the hotel. Prior to closing, I realized I had the wrong bridle for my two-pin rig, I moved the packjob over to the loaner Prizm and closed it. I'd brought my gear (my container, a loaner container and canopy) not to jump, but to pack and have friends watch and comment on the packjob; I was there to learn, not jump. I did not have the requisite jump numbers and though I wanted to jump badly I had promised myself and J&M that I was there to observe.
I'd had the gear stashed at home to return to the owner and in my haste, grabbed it and ran out the door for Moab, assuming all was there (*my* bridle and pilot chute were not, they were sitting on the shelf right above the rest of the gear). Subtle mistake number 1 and the catalyst that set everything in motion, nearly resulting in the death of my friend.
My rig is setup quite different from the Prizm. I have four large, beige rubber bands to stow the multi (which are now four, cut in half, "nearly there", beige rubber bands). This one had two, and they were black, as you know. I did not question the setup of the rig, given the experience of the owner. Not so subtle mistake number 2 (in that I didn't question the unknown, not faulting the owner). My initial fears of the multi stows when first learning to pack and jump were long gone. When stowing the multi, I took to stowing it as I had on my own rig; an inch and a quarter or so. In hindsight, I learned that I had stowed the multi sheath too deeply in the rubber bands. I based this on the principle in stowing lines in skydiving that if you stow your lines too shallow, you could get a lock on the stow. I have done this on my own rig with no problems. Not so subtle mistake number 3. The rest of the multi I simply s-folded on top of the stows, but not through. We all know what followed.

"Every BASE jumper is some part rigger, some part test jumper and some part madman." I didn't take enough of that first responsibility upon myself. I was complacent in not questioning a setup that was different from what I'd used in the past. It didn't even dawn on me. The tension on the band did not seem significant enough to me as to present a problem, an assumption ultimately proven incorrect and thankfully not as costly as it could have been.


Regarding the debate on the multi, I'll tell you that my initial reaction was alarmist: "It's one more thing to keep the canopy in the container," I remember thinking. I reversed my earlier position in favor, and was now hell-bent against it. I then spoke with many people both for and against it and I no longer believe it's that clear cut. I believe there is a time and place for a multi. Forgive me in my inexperience (part of the reason I've never posted in the BASE forum thus far) for thinking out loud, but maybe it will spur on some thought. It takes into account both sides I've heard concerning a multi: for and against.
From BR's manual:
"The Multi is short for multiple bridle attachment. The Multi increases the number of bridle lifting points from the typical 1 point to a total of 4 points. The single attachment on the center cell is used as well as two more at the identical location, on each cell adjacent to the center cell. For a subtotal of 3. The fourth point is near the rear of the center cell. The 3 forward points are responsible for lifting the canopy in a normal fashion, similar to the single point. The rear point is to support the Tail Pocket which, during deployment, is heavy with suspension lines."
Proponents of the multi point out that it aids in deployment by helping to provide for a more symmetrical opening. In the case of this canopy, which has a ZP topskin, it also aids in keeping the packjob in better order, as ZP material is more apt to shift due to its texture.
Lower jumps...shorter delays...maybe it does introduce another variable, but I believe Karen and BR have evidence showing that when configured properly, it does help and is a great design.
A conclusion I've come to, personally, is that I'll continue using a multi on terminal and near-terminal jumps, as well as with a canopy with a ZP topskin. I might not use one from lower exit points, however, but I'm still mulling this over. That's just my personal decision, though, after deciding for myself that it's not clear-cut enough as to be a bad thing. That's my opinion and others are sure to differ.


Back to the main issue...

Karen--first--my greatest apologies for not coming to your (and BR's) defense earlier. You've weathered a lot here and I think that's undue. This was user error, my error. I'm sorry.

Peter, bud...I'm sorry I almost killed you. I can't express the feeling I had when I didn't hear the canopy open when it should have. We've talked about this a bunch, thanks for being so damn cool about it all. Can't wait to share an exit point with you.

Apologies go out to J&M, as well. I'd hoped I'd have had no impact on the event at all and just taken a great deal away with me. The latter I did, as a result of my failure on the former.

To everyone else in the BASE community... I'd held back on ever posting on the BASE board for personal reasons. I figured when I'd talk about BASE it would be with whom I wanted, at a time I wanted. I choose to participate in the community, but by communicating directly with other jumpers, not for all and anyone to see. I guess this is too small of a community in which to do that and my silence up until now may have been perceived as not having taken responsibility for my own actions. Nothing could be further from the truth. I've felt responsible from the second that canopy didn't open when the multi locked, even after speculation about delay times. Regardless of your position, I had a hand in it and that's enough for me to feel responsible. Just because I didn't post it publicly doesn't mean I didn't feel that way all along. Again, this is perhaps too small a community for me have to not stepped up to all of you. Apologies here, as well.

Mea culpa,
-C.ya

Edits for grammar and clarity.

[Rauk 0]

I think the point to remember is the fact that this wasn't started to lay blame or point fingers. It was only meant to save lives. See you soon C?
Adam

[K763 0]

Hey C...

Nice job on this post, thank you! You have hit the nail on the head exactly with this,

You are the man...

Peace,
K

[TomAiello 25]

I'm going to unstick this. I think it's in the process of finding a permanent home somewhere with the skydiving manufacturer safety bulletins. Once it's there, I'll post a link to this thread.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com