skydiverek 54 #26 December 1, 2004 QuoteYears ago, there was an article in Paramag (french skydive magazine) of a Frenchman doing several bag launched jumps of a 29 meters bridge over a grassy field. (no soft sand). Looked OK to me from the pictures taken from above. No flare, toggles set in half brakes, he just ran on landing. This was better than releasing the Here it is: http://www.para-net.org/paramag/archives/n155/article1GB.html Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jonathan_k 0 #27 December 1, 2004 Are you sure that's a PCA? If you look at the pictures you can see lines running from the jumper to the basket and the pilot chute hanging from there also so unless it's some kind of m.c. escher photo, that puts the canopy at the basket too . I guess johnny utah is the man with all the answers. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites LouYoung 0 #28 December 1, 2004 It wasn't really a PCA. More like a shrivel flap assist. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites hookitt 0 #29 December 1, 2004 QuoteIt wasn't really a PCA. More like a shrivel flap assist. I'm surprised this hasn't been linked too yet. Here's the ladder truck post =--> Ladder TruckMy grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GaryP 0 #30 December 2, 2004 Jonny says in that post (in many more words than I use here) that the anchor point (either a stronger break-cord or stronger hand-grip) on a PCA results in the canopy's bottom skin spreading further after reaching line-stretch resulting in more canopy spread at the point of breakaway and hence - faster inflation. The stronger grip holds the canopy for just that little bit longer allowing the spread to develop further before breakaway. Way long ago we were using d-bags (with anchored saftey bridle) and for the low shit we attached a break-cord inside the d-bag from the canopy attachment point to the bag itself. With this break-cord in place the top of the canopy was held up with the bag-holder's hands until the jumper reached line stretch. The results we got was pretty much full inflation of the canopy after about 30'-40' after it left the bag. When I despatched my mates I was always seeing inflated top-skin at about 30' down - really impressive. The canopy would be held high in my outstretched hands right through the deploymnt sequence. NOTE that this is the distance the canopy travels from the mouth of the d-bag and not the jumper's fall which incorporates the line length and jumper's height. In other words, inflation about 30' after line stretch. This was on non-BASE specific gear with shallow brake settings and no tailgate. The results were pretty consistent - sometimes even better so I expect today's gear to perform at least the same. g."Altitude is birthright to any individual who seeks it" . Share this post Link to post Share on other sites base515 0 #31 December 2, 2004 Watching the jump of the TARd, the canopy may have some air in as he jumps off, but it doesn't inflate until he hits line stretch. The canopy is actually falling with him a little ways. Had someone been holding a d-bag above him, i would think he would have gotten almost the same opening distance if not less. He would hit line stretch sooner, there by starting the opening a hair quicker. I've done about a dozen d-bags from around a 130ft and have held the bag on many others. From the bagmans view, the canopy seems to open about 20ft away. If you simply toss a canopy off something will it inflate and fly? I don't think so, it has to have the weight on the lines to open. So the faster you can transfer that weight to the canopy the faster it will open. so it seems (to me anyway) that having the canopy stay at the exit, instead of falling with you, would give a faster opening. so at this particular location, has anyone tried to d-bag it? I don't think you would have a prob. landing with brakes stowed and a good plf It was sick jump though very nice May we live long and die out Share this post Link to post Share on other sites RayLosli 11 #32 December 2, 2004 Sabre: Ya..Spence has done quit a lot of low, Tards, McConkey, PCA's, Low Free-Falls, etc. He has a pretty good working Knowledge of, "Where to Draw the Line." I have seen him do some scary shit but he mentally works out the details in advance, before stepping off. He walk's the Walk much better than Me. Personally I will not, PCA or D-bag nothing lower than 150 ft. You have to draw your own lines and follow your own game plan in BASE. ................................................................... Maybe My brain is weird, but I think Tard Qualifies More for a, BASE jump A, McConkey/roll-over. does not. Doing a TARD, You are doing a pack-job held in your hands. There is order to it. Canopy is flaked, there are settings done to it. Held in hand The Lines are gathered in order. Held in the other hand. **(this defines it as a BASE jump): You Launch and deploy canopy and Lines in a specific order,... In Free-Fall. **Free-Fall**-- The jumper can vary his delay of Free-fall./ by his deployment. It is attached to a Single Parachute, Harness Container system. just not packed in it. Its packed and held & deployed in both Hands. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites TomAiello 25 #33 December 2, 2004 QuoteQuoteI once tried to build a really big, flat d-bag, and hold air channels open with separators. That's interesting. Why did you stop work on that? It was for a very specific jump which had very unusual (to say the least) parameters. I ended up doing it with the canopy pre-spread, and attached with break cord, but totally unbagged. edit to add: In my opinion, the method I used doesn't really qualify as a BASE jump, strictly speaking.-- Tom Aiello [email protected] SnakeRiverBASE.com Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DexterBase 0 #34 December 2, 2004 QuoteIt was for a very specific jump which had very unusual (to say the least) parameters. I ended up doing it with the canopy pre-spread, and attached with break cord, but totally unbagged. Wow. We need to jump together more often. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites base587 0 #35 December 2, 2004 TARDS open faster than d-bagging when done under optimal conditions. I posted some equipment details over at BLINC http://blincmagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=22438 The advantage of TARDS over other deployment methods aren't so apparent in this jump. Big issue here was the variable 2-5 mph headwind (You can see the nose of the canopy rippling after landing) To maintain integrity of the 'pack' at launch in these conditions I also held onto the tailpocket with my thumb and had a portion of the tail protecting the rest of the pack from the wind...this interfered slightly with the deployment. I also could have held onto the pack a fraction of a second longer during freefall to allow better pressurisation. Generally you have concurrent canopy inflation with line deployment. Looking at the video, the canopy deployment looks like I'm using a tailgate (which i'm not). This wasn't an optimal TARD, but it worked well for those conditions. We'll get some video on a no wind day and I'll put my money where my mouth is Share this post Link to post Share on other sites bps 0 #36 December 2, 2004 For those who don't know BASE 587, I consider him to be one of the most experienced jumpers in the world for ultra-low deployments. He has dozens of jumps in the sub-150ft and at least a another dozen jumps in the 111 to 120ft range. I find this thread interesting and useful for taking at look at what deploys faster: a TARD or a Direct Bag. Of course, it will probably never matter to me as I'm way to soft to jump anything sub 150... Bryan Share this post Link to post Share on other sites RayLosli 11 #37 December 2, 2004 Bryan... You should have seen Spence, some months ago when he found this shitty little cell Tower down the street from his house with a asphalt parking lot for a landing area. The thing was only like 115/120 ft. tall. He was happy as a pig in shit. He drug me over there to show it to me and asked me to go with him the next time he jumped it. I thought he was making a joke. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites bps 0 #38 December 2, 2004 QuoteBryan... You should have seen Spence....the thing was only like 115/120 ft. tall. He was happy as a pig in shit. Ha ha ha. That sounds just like Spence! I shook my head once when Spence said to me "It's possible for me to release toggles and flare for landing down to 130ft. Anything below that and I have to use risers for landing". Spence really is that dialed in on the low stuff. I still plan on coming out this winter to jump with you guys -- I'll be in touch soon. Bryan DISCLAIMER: For those unexperienced and uninitiated in the ultra-low realm, jumping objects this low often requires many specialized techiniques and there is often zero-margin for error. Don't take the above numbers in this thread as factual (like it's ok to release your brakes from a 130ft jump). Your mileage can and will vary. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ronald 0 #39 December 8, 2004 OK, I got the article from Paramag. No clue about when. At least after 1999 because the article refers to jumps in that year. but here it is: Julien Caquineau, bridge 36 meters (sorry, not 29). He used direct bag. I have seen the pictures and yes, landing was OK. Again, like I said above, he did not release the brakes as this generated too much forward speed he could not brake. He just ran. He also had done test jumps with a dummy. For the interested, the article is below in french: Ronald Overdijk www.liveskyproductions.nl Séquence folie 36 mètres : plus bas, tu meurs… Comme les sites de BASE jump sont rares dans sa région, Julien Caquineau a voulu essayer ce viaduc situé près de chez lui, en Vendée. Il a ainsi réussi un saut à 36 mètres. Ça ne dure pas très longtemps, c'est très bref, mais ça marche ! Déroulement en images et en quelques mots... Même si l’action peut être considérée comme complètement dingue, Julien ne s’est pas jeté dans le vide n'importe comment. Il a d'abord effectué des lancers de mannequin afin d'observer les séquences d'ouvertures de différentes voiles de BASE jump. Selon lui, toutes ne sont d'ailleurs pas compatibles avec cette faible hauteur... Le mannequin, du type utilisé par les maîtres nageurs en piscine, était lesté pour restituer les conditions exactes du saut. La méthode utilisée est le “direct-bag”, c’est-à-dire qu’un complice tient le P.O.D. en mains au moment du départ, une sorte de saut en automatique amélioré. Ce n’est qu’après avoir trouvé la bonne configuration, que Julien a suté ! Et voilà le résultat. Quelques semaines plus tard, dans les mêmes conditions, Julien profitait d’un échafaudage de 60 mètres installé sur le clocher d’une église en réparation… Et le 6 mars dernier, il faisait partie d’un groupe de 4 personnes à sauter de la Tour Effeil. Julien est peut-être le premier à y avoir sauté 2 fois, la première étant de nuit le 23 décembre 1999 (voir ParaMag n 141). Petite anecdote : avant de sauter de la Tour Effeil, les 4 compères avaient sauté d’une tour de la Défense et ils ont été arrêtés par la police. Leur saut de la Défense a été annoncé aux infos (Europe 1, Libération…), mais celui de la tour Effeil est passé complètement inaperçu. Photos Doriant Pichaud Share this post Link to post Share on other sites FIREFLYR 0 #40 December 8, 2004 >For the interested... Thanks a pants full. Anyone care to translate? ~J"One flew East,and one flew West..............one flew over the cuckoo's nest" "There's absolutely no excuse for the way I'm about to act" Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Hajo 0 #41 December 8, 2004 hi folks, I was the guy who held the D-bag at this jump for my buddy, mahle from fehrbellin, germany. it is not really a cliff, more a cave, washed out from the sea. it was a height of 26.8 meters, we measured it out before he jumped. the video was made by achmed sharma, a german freeflyer, and is a part of his movie "fantasy flyer". the episode is named "a day at the seaside". mahle also did an indoor jump (D-bag, solid ground in a former factory) with an exit height 23 meters. at this jump he was not able to flare with toggles (of course not) or risers, he just did a plf, without injuries at all. this jump was made afak with a V-tec FOX. see the picture from that cave jump on www.base-jump.de, pictures (bilder). bye folks-------------------------------------------------- With sufficient thrust, pigs just fly well Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 2 of 2 0
jonathan_k 0 #27 December 1, 2004 Are you sure that's a PCA? If you look at the pictures you can see lines running from the jumper to the basket and the pilot chute hanging from there also so unless it's some kind of m.c. escher photo, that puts the canopy at the basket too . I guess johnny utah is the man with all the answers. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LouYoung 0 #28 December 1, 2004 It wasn't really a PCA. More like a shrivel flap assist. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hookitt 0 #29 December 1, 2004 QuoteIt wasn't really a PCA. More like a shrivel flap assist. I'm surprised this hasn't been linked too yet. Here's the ladder truck post =--> Ladder TruckMy grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GaryP 0 #30 December 2, 2004 Jonny says in that post (in many more words than I use here) that the anchor point (either a stronger break-cord or stronger hand-grip) on a PCA results in the canopy's bottom skin spreading further after reaching line-stretch resulting in more canopy spread at the point of breakaway and hence - faster inflation. The stronger grip holds the canopy for just that little bit longer allowing the spread to develop further before breakaway. Way long ago we were using d-bags (with anchored saftey bridle) and for the low shit we attached a break-cord inside the d-bag from the canopy attachment point to the bag itself. With this break-cord in place the top of the canopy was held up with the bag-holder's hands until the jumper reached line stretch. The results we got was pretty much full inflation of the canopy after about 30'-40' after it left the bag. When I despatched my mates I was always seeing inflated top-skin at about 30' down - really impressive. The canopy would be held high in my outstretched hands right through the deploymnt sequence. NOTE that this is the distance the canopy travels from the mouth of the d-bag and not the jumper's fall which incorporates the line length and jumper's height. In other words, inflation about 30' after line stretch. This was on non-BASE specific gear with shallow brake settings and no tailgate. The results were pretty consistent - sometimes even better so I expect today's gear to perform at least the same. g."Altitude is birthright to any individual who seeks it" . Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
base515 0 #31 December 2, 2004 Watching the jump of the TARd, the canopy may have some air in as he jumps off, but it doesn't inflate until he hits line stretch. The canopy is actually falling with him a little ways. Had someone been holding a d-bag above him, i would think he would have gotten almost the same opening distance if not less. He would hit line stretch sooner, there by starting the opening a hair quicker. I've done about a dozen d-bags from around a 130ft and have held the bag on many others. From the bagmans view, the canopy seems to open about 20ft away. If you simply toss a canopy off something will it inflate and fly? I don't think so, it has to have the weight on the lines to open. So the faster you can transfer that weight to the canopy the faster it will open. so it seems (to me anyway) that having the canopy stay at the exit, instead of falling with you, would give a faster opening. so at this particular location, has anyone tried to d-bag it? I don't think you would have a prob. landing with brakes stowed and a good plf It was sick jump though very nice May we live long and die out Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RayLosli 11 #32 December 2, 2004 Sabre: Ya..Spence has done quit a lot of low, Tards, McConkey, PCA's, Low Free-Falls, etc. He has a pretty good working Knowledge of, "Where to Draw the Line." I have seen him do some scary shit but he mentally works out the details in advance, before stepping off. He walk's the Walk much better than Me. Personally I will not, PCA or D-bag nothing lower than 150 ft. You have to draw your own lines and follow your own game plan in BASE. ................................................................... Maybe My brain is weird, but I think Tard Qualifies More for a, BASE jump A, McConkey/roll-over. does not. Doing a TARD, You are doing a pack-job held in your hands. There is order to it. Canopy is flaked, there are settings done to it. Held in hand The Lines are gathered in order. Held in the other hand. **(this defines it as a BASE jump): You Launch and deploy canopy and Lines in a specific order,... In Free-Fall. **Free-Fall**-- The jumper can vary his delay of Free-fall./ by his deployment. It is attached to a Single Parachute, Harness Container system. just not packed in it. Its packed and held & deployed in both Hands. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 25 #33 December 2, 2004 QuoteQuoteI once tried to build a really big, flat d-bag, and hold air channels open with separators. That's interesting. Why did you stop work on that? It was for a very specific jump which had very unusual (to say the least) parameters. I ended up doing it with the canopy pre-spread, and attached with break cord, but totally unbagged. edit to add: In my opinion, the method I used doesn't really qualify as a BASE jump, strictly speaking.-- Tom Aiello [email protected] SnakeRiverBASE.com Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DexterBase 0 #34 December 2, 2004 QuoteIt was for a very specific jump which had very unusual (to say the least) parameters. I ended up doing it with the canopy pre-spread, and attached with break cord, but totally unbagged. Wow. We need to jump together more often. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
base587 0 #35 December 2, 2004 TARDS open faster than d-bagging when done under optimal conditions. I posted some equipment details over at BLINC http://blincmagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=22438 The advantage of TARDS over other deployment methods aren't so apparent in this jump. Big issue here was the variable 2-5 mph headwind (You can see the nose of the canopy rippling after landing) To maintain integrity of the 'pack' at launch in these conditions I also held onto the tailpocket with my thumb and had a portion of the tail protecting the rest of the pack from the wind...this interfered slightly with the deployment. I also could have held onto the pack a fraction of a second longer during freefall to allow better pressurisation. Generally you have concurrent canopy inflation with line deployment. Looking at the video, the canopy deployment looks like I'm using a tailgate (which i'm not). This wasn't an optimal TARD, but it worked well for those conditions. We'll get some video on a no wind day and I'll put my money where my mouth is Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bps 0 #36 December 2, 2004 For those who don't know BASE 587, I consider him to be one of the most experienced jumpers in the world for ultra-low deployments. He has dozens of jumps in the sub-150ft and at least a another dozen jumps in the 111 to 120ft range. I find this thread interesting and useful for taking at look at what deploys faster: a TARD or a Direct Bag. Of course, it will probably never matter to me as I'm way to soft to jump anything sub 150... Bryan Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RayLosli 11 #37 December 2, 2004 Bryan... You should have seen Spence, some months ago when he found this shitty little cell Tower down the street from his house with a asphalt parking lot for a landing area. The thing was only like 115/120 ft. tall. He was happy as a pig in shit. He drug me over there to show it to me and asked me to go with him the next time he jumped it. I thought he was making a joke. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bps 0 #38 December 2, 2004 QuoteBryan... You should have seen Spence....the thing was only like 115/120 ft. tall. He was happy as a pig in shit. Ha ha ha. That sounds just like Spence! I shook my head once when Spence said to me "It's possible for me to release toggles and flare for landing down to 130ft. Anything below that and I have to use risers for landing". Spence really is that dialed in on the low stuff. I still plan on coming out this winter to jump with you guys -- I'll be in touch soon. Bryan DISCLAIMER: For those unexperienced and uninitiated in the ultra-low realm, jumping objects this low often requires many specialized techiniques and there is often zero-margin for error. Don't take the above numbers in this thread as factual (like it's ok to release your brakes from a 130ft jump). Your mileage can and will vary. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ronald 0 #39 December 8, 2004 OK, I got the article from Paramag. No clue about when. At least after 1999 because the article refers to jumps in that year. but here it is: Julien Caquineau, bridge 36 meters (sorry, not 29). He used direct bag. I have seen the pictures and yes, landing was OK. Again, like I said above, he did not release the brakes as this generated too much forward speed he could not brake. He just ran. He also had done test jumps with a dummy. For the interested, the article is below in french: Ronald Overdijk www.liveskyproductions.nl Séquence folie 36 mètres : plus bas, tu meurs… Comme les sites de BASE jump sont rares dans sa région, Julien Caquineau a voulu essayer ce viaduc situé près de chez lui, en Vendée. Il a ainsi réussi un saut à 36 mètres. Ça ne dure pas très longtemps, c'est très bref, mais ça marche ! Déroulement en images et en quelques mots... Même si l’action peut être considérée comme complètement dingue, Julien ne s’est pas jeté dans le vide n'importe comment. Il a d'abord effectué des lancers de mannequin afin d'observer les séquences d'ouvertures de différentes voiles de BASE jump. Selon lui, toutes ne sont d'ailleurs pas compatibles avec cette faible hauteur... Le mannequin, du type utilisé par les maîtres nageurs en piscine, était lesté pour restituer les conditions exactes du saut. La méthode utilisée est le “direct-bag”, c’est-à-dire qu’un complice tient le P.O.D. en mains au moment du départ, une sorte de saut en automatique amélioré. Ce n’est qu’après avoir trouvé la bonne configuration, que Julien a suté ! Et voilà le résultat. Quelques semaines plus tard, dans les mêmes conditions, Julien profitait d’un échafaudage de 60 mètres installé sur le clocher d’une église en réparation… Et le 6 mars dernier, il faisait partie d’un groupe de 4 personnes à sauter de la Tour Effeil. Julien est peut-être le premier à y avoir sauté 2 fois, la première étant de nuit le 23 décembre 1999 (voir ParaMag n 141). Petite anecdote : avant de sauter de la Tour Effeil, les 4 compères avaient sauté d’une tour de la Défense et ils ont été arrêtés par la police. Leur saut de la Défense a été annoncé aux infos (Europe 1, Libération…), mais celui de la tour Effeil est passé complètement inaperçu. Photos Doriant Pichaud Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FIREFLYR 0 #40 December 8, 2004 >For the interested... Thanks a pants full. Anyone care to translate? ~J"One flew East,and one flew West..............one flew over the cuckoo's nest" "There's absolutely no excuse for the way I'm about to act" Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hajo 0 #41 December 8, 2004 hi folks, I was the guy who held the D-bag at this jump for my buddy, mahle from fehrbellin, germany. it is not really a cliff, more a cave, washed out from the sea. it was a height of 26.8 meters, we measured it out before he jumped. the video was made by achmed sharma, a german freeflyer, and is a part of his movie "fantasy flyer". the episode is named "a day at the seaside". mahle also did an indoor jump (D-bag, solid ground in a former factory) with an exit height 23 meters. at this jump he was not able to flare with toggles (of course not) or risers, he just did a plf, without injuries at all. this jump was made afak with a V-tec FOX. see the picture from that cave jump on www.base-jump.de, pictures (bilder). bye folks-------------------------------------------------- With sufficient thrust, pigs just fly well Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
