Packing Question

[aidclimber 0]

what i'm i doing wrong with my packing for this to happen? it did open onheading

[tymkoder 0]

possible tension knot or Tailgate wrapped too tight.

I happen to see on opening look much like that at BD this year on my friends canopy. he had put an extra wrap on his tailgate band.

CHICKEN MAN
BASE 954

[pringles 0]

Did It open rather hard? How is the velco on your tail pocket? If you think it is good compare it to the velcro on a new tail pocket. You might change your mind. I would almost guess line dump. There is quite a bit of slack in the lines just above your left shoulder in the pic.

Matt Davies

[TomAiello 25]

Quote

How is the velco on your tail pocket? If you think it is good compare it to the velcro on a new tail pocket. You might change your mind. I would almost guess line dump. There is quite a bit of slack in the lines just above your left shoulder in the pic.

That's pretty much what it looks like to me, too.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[aidclimber 0]

opening was pretty standard.. the tail pocket was replaced 30 jumps ago by asylum...maybe i didn't mate the velcro on the tail pocket very well..the tailgate was snug 3 wraps

[captainjavelin 0]

For any packing questions or guidlines please refer to the opening sequence of C2 where Chris Pope demonstrates a 2 minute pack job.

Kenyon

www.triaxproductions.com

[RayLosli 11]

Man it looks like a Step-Through on one side of Risers.
If not that is one of the most F##ked up opening that I have seen.

What was the outcome of a line check and inspection after landing ???
Was it clean ?

Did you see any line burns on fabric to suggest any lines
were knotted around fabric ?
Or line burns from line to line ?
There must have been some friction marks left after that kind of opening.

You are walking and talking.
Did it open and Clear any further than the Pic. ?
If not did you take it to the water ?

You might need more practice on your packing skills ?

[aidclimber 0]

Hi Ray...didn't have a step-through..the canopy looks fine no burns or holes

here are the right before and after pics

dry stand up landing ...i thought i knew how to pack

[Faber 0]

Quote

the tailgate was snug 3 wraps

Large rubberband or just for the fun of it?

Stay safe
Stefan Faber

[hookitt 0]

Did you use the primary stow? How many wraps?

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[aidclimber 0]

i did use the primary stow on the tail pocket 2 wraps with about inch and a half bite of line...on the tail gate small rubberband cut in half lenth wise 3 wraps

[SabreDave 0]

Here is a thought......

I am not a super experienced jumper but spent 3 years + ground crewing before I started. I am a photographer by trade and for fun.
I can't count how many pics I have that look like that and worse. Most folks don't change their vid cam settings from standard so are usually recording at around 1/60 of a second thus ever being able to catch it. I was always shooting stills and on the daylight jumps using shutter speeds between 1/4000 of a second and 1/16,000 of a second.
At those speeds you freeze all of the crazy shit quite well. Could it be that this happens more regularly than people think?? I have pics from several different people that look like that. People with hundreds of jumps, rggers rating etc...... Very knowledgeable people.
One of the things I had to get over when I started jumping was the way canopies sometime look coming out!
Anyway, just a thought, would like to know more if their is a way to prevent this.

SabreDave

[base311 0]

Quote

Here is a thought......

(stuff deleted)
I can't count how many pics I have that look like that and worse.

(more deleted)

Could it be that this happens more regularly than people think??

(more deleted)

Anyway, just a thought, would like to know more if their is a way to prevent this.

I completely agree with you on your first statement. I think it happens all of the time most of us just aren't viewing it in a frozen state.

What I'd like to talk about is along similar lines... and I'm also wondering if we might need new nomenclature: eversion and inversion. We talk about tail inversion all of the time. In fact when people first started talking about it I was a bit confused because they seemed to be using a term that didn't really describe what they were talking about (at least for me). After reading several posts about it years ago, someone finally posted a photo describing the phenomenon. A basic way of describing it would be this: If you're observing an opening canopy from above, you'd basically be able to see the bottom skin of the tail in a "tail inversion". This makes sense, but this instance of inversion is much different from what one knows to be an inversion in a round canopy... well... sorta. Anyway, I'm wondering if that wording should be renamed "Tail Eversion" and if we should reassign the words "Tail Inversion" to denote what we see in aidclimber's original photo above.

Let me see if I can explain. I've seen this several times now (and experienced it once myself), and more noticeably since the advent of the tailgate (in fact perhaps only after the common utilization of the tailgate): look at aidclimber's photo (all references to the canopy are from jumper's perspective). Notice how the right side trailing edge tail fabric (gray in this instance) is caught, or being held up by wind forces, up in the region of the a/b line attachments? That, to me, is a true inversion. But I believe this inversion may be _caused_ by the use of the tailgate. In other words, I don't think that fabric would normally go there if it weren't for the tailgate. I experienced one of these after a short delay from the pizza rock with a 3-wrap tailgate (different time, diff. discussion). Initially I thought it was a TG hang-up because I was concerned about the numb. of wraps prior to exit (when, at the exit pt., it was decided I'd be high guy on a 2-way). The mess cleared virtually before I could figure out what was going on. But after an on-the-ground-jack-daniels-drinking-self-debrief, I realized that it was not a TG hangup because I saw lines on the left side of my canopy distributed in a completely normal configuration, but that the whole right-rear corner of the tail had managed to work its way up into the fore and aft space between the lines of cells 5/6, and was momentarily trapped beneath the bottom skin of the canopy until the forces of bottom skin inflation were weak enough to be overcome by the internal pressure whereby it quickly corrected itself and popped out with a "thump" (you know how fabric thumps). I fully believe that had this been a round canopy (obviously without anti-inversion netting, etc.) it would have been at least a partial inversion. I recall seeing the whole right rear corner being trapped there... then the whole corner flipping itself back out nearly instantaneously. Notably, it was also a dead on-heading opening as was aidclimber's. Has anyone else experienced this or witnessed someone else's canopy do this? And I'm not talking about the crappy looking wad of canopy just before the TG releases... I'm talking about a tailgate that has obviously released, but with the T.E. fabric still trapped underneath the bottom skin.

ANyway... call me crazy. Nomenclature? I call what I had a tail inversion (I know that's contrary to popular conventions). I call what is normally referred to as "Tail Inversion", a "Tail Eversion".

In any event, I believe what you experienced (and some of what we can see happening in your photo) is exactly what I experienced, but your photo is like mine but taken just before the TG released.

later,
Gardner

[RayLosli 11]

Hell.... I thought this was Something Bad.
So one camera frame latter it's looks and Flies like a normal canopy.
So that death looking canopy was only what ? A Half of a second ?

Tail inversion ? Fabric trapped with lines ?
All that thing is. Is a bunch of Nylon sewed to Dacron Lines.
Getting Dragged through the Air.
What more do you Expect ???
Maybe it is just the mathematical Law of Averages.
Body positioning, Packing, Or outside influences.......Or
Maybe it's the smallest,Micro combination of everything all put together ?
There is always that one unpredictable opening.
There is most likely a frame or two on everybody's videos that makes
the Canopy look like a F##k-ed up Mess.
There is lots of video were the canopy looks like Primo all the way
from extraction to starting of opening, then BANG it's a 180.

Was the opening in a Hard tail wind to promote this, would be my
first question. Plus consider what delay of free-fall you had in
conjunction with outside wind influence. Was it a weak delay ?
with maybe to much restriction with Tail-Gate + 2 raps on Primary Stow

If you feel that a over restrictive tail-gate could be the culprit of this Pic.
There is no need to over kill on the raps on the Tail Gate.
Raise your Hand.
Who uses 3 raps on Tail-Gate plus using Primary Stow anymore ???
To many raps on Tail-Gate + Primary Stow = BAD.
Don't do that. You don't need to do that.

I am sure many other jumpers out there do the same as me.
I have jumped every no slider jump from a, P.C.A., go-and-throw, 1, 2, 3,
and 4.8 sec. delay. hundreds of times.
Some under the most severe of tail wind head wind, Blab.. Blab..
I only use One & Half Raps / black rubber band cut in half on the Tail Gate.
With no Primary Stow any more.
SO far ,So good.

[Rauk 0]

I don't know a whole lot, but the tailgate was one thing I always thought people put too much into. What I mean by that is I would see people often wrapping 3 or more wraps with a rubber band. I have (until about a month ago) used a larks-headed rubber band and used one and a half wraps(I think it would be one and a half with the larks head) and I have had great performance. This is in the last 190 jumps, and I have never had any problems that could have been caused by too little tension on the tailgate. I started using masking tape (2 full wraps) instead of a rubber band (on the tailgate, directly on the lines for slider up), and it seems to work fine, but I also wanted to know if anyone else has been using masking tape (slider down mostly)? I was also thinking of using duct tape, but that idea went out the window when I got my new sewing machine, now I will never have to close my tailgate again. Serious about peoples experiences with masking tape though.

[TomAiello 25]

I've used masking tape quite a bit this fall, because I've been moving brake settings and don't want to bother moving the tailgate until I know where they'll finally end up. So far I haven't been able to tell a difference between the tailgate and the masking tape.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[Skydawg 0]

Quote

I've used masking tape quite a bit this fall, because I've been moving brake settings and don't want to bother moving the tailgate until I know where they'll finally end up. So far I haven't been able to tell a difference between the tailgate and the masking tape.

How many raps Tom?

[TomAiello 25]

Quote

How many raps Tom?

Just one wrap of tape. I've also been playing with putting it inside out, so it sticks to the canopy and holds the lines centered.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[RayLosli 11]

The one thing that I find superior over using. Masking Tape -Vs - Tail Gate on
a no-slider jump is that.....
The Tail Gate has a, -Centered Anchor Point- on the in-board, C line.
I think it holds it, In a more centered, Pivotal Point on pre-bottom skin inflation before and
during. The Canopy entering a firm line stretch. With the nose giving you a good heading.
- Very Important -. I like that the Break lines are tied to in-board,C line, While all energy
of line stretch is getting played out. Before it breaks away and does it's own thing.
Feels like it's the right thing to me. Plus it has a track record that is undisputed.

**It just works to good.** Holding back the energy of the tail in the Center / While all other
violent energy and Fabric expansion happens on the out side.

the Question of :
How much Tape do I use ?

That is a very personal piece of information that is solely base on that pilots experience of Trial & Error.
Do you use 1/2-inch 3/4 or 1-inch, paper masking Tape ?

Also it's kind of spooky when you start using it.
**I can tell you one thing 1 wrap of paper masking tape is nothing.on no slider jump.**

Example :
I would use a minimum or 3 wraps on slider down on Brake lines.

Slider- Up, Idaho / 460 ft. high. give or take.
With a delay of,- example: a one rotation Arial (maybe just getting into a big 2 or a 3 sec delay)
I am looking for a fast positive opening -BUT- some control on brake lines.
I put 3 raps of 1/2 inch, on brake cascades, plus one small rubber band rap on direct slider control.

Big delay/ terminal, fast speed tracking.
Vented canopy / No rolling the nose.
5 to 6 raps on break lines w/ 3/4 inch, paper masking tape .
2 raps primary stow. 2 tight raps with a big bit on Direct slider control.

[bps 0]

When I first started jumping, the Tail Gate was just gaining popularity. Rather than use a tailgate, I used masking tape on my first 75 slider-down BASE jumps. I used 1 1/2 wraps of 3/4 inch masking tape, sticky side out. Video analysis showed decent results. After my first 75 slider-down jumps, I converted to the Tail Gate, which I believe is superior to masking tape for the exact same reason that Ray has already mentioned -- it keeps everything anchored to the center of the canopy during the deployment process. (by including the 2 center C lines and the 2 Center D lines in your tailgate)

I still continue to use the tailgate today. I do not lark-head the rubberband to the tailgate and I do not use black rubber bands. I use 3 wraps of a tan rubber band for all slider-down freefalls and just 2 wraps of a rubber band for planned static-line/PCAs.

Would I use masking tape if my tailgate was not available? Absolutely. But if available, a tailgate is my first choice.

Bryan