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skydvr18

MEET THE TANNING GUY

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I think your trying to compare apples and oranges here.



OK, then how about this one - how would you feel about an inexperienced wingsuit pilot teaching an inexperienced skydiver to fly a wingsuit? Bad idea?



hehe! just said the same thing myself!

how ya doing will! hope all is cool and you enjoyed the "walk in the park"

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I'm really shocked by what the tanning guy is doing and the uneducated responses to this thread. All the technological advancements in gear and training over the last 25 years are thrown out when you have yahoo's like the tanning guy tossing people off a bridge under inadequate military rounds. I actually own a few military rounds and you'd have to pay me a lot to jump one off a bridge.

This guy is a liability, just like our wonderful surfboard and waterski jumpers.

My question to several of you is this. If you don't BASE jump, or if you haven't ever been to the Perrine, how can you adequately post a response to this thread? You don't see me posting over at the CRW forum......simply because I don't know crap about CRW.
(c)2010 Vertical Visions. No unauthorized duplication permitted. <==For the media only

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i think you are wrong, last time i checked it was almost impossible for someone to get hold of BASE gear as opposed to buying skydiving gear -



I dunno, I personally know two BASE jumpers who bought their gear over the net and soloed their first jumps (both now have over 100 BASE jumps). PM me if you'd like to know just how easy it was. :S

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I have recently had a discussion with a skydiver friend who said he thought BASE jumpers were more clique mentality than skydivers



When you BASE jump with people they see how you behave when you are sleep deprived, physically exhausted and scared of possible injury and/or arrest (often all at the same time). It is not 'cliquiness' - it is just an understanding that comes from seeing people at their best/worst.

Will

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My opinion is that he is not part of the BASE community. He has been throwing high school students off for several years, as far as we know. A static line off of that bridge is as close as you can get to a "safe" jump, and even with a nasty mal (I know, they are impossible), you would probably still survive.

I don't think there is really anything that can be done. He's not one of us and is using the bridge like ant other user. So long as he is not having the jump from the rail or having them hold onto surfboards or sommething, it's really no different than the other dozen base courses that go on there (OK, its not a course, its an amusment park ride).

If you really don't like it, go out when he runs the course and explain to his students that the gear they are jumping is older than they are. I do think its a bit silly, and a mighty sketchy way to earn a very few dollars.

Cya.

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Regarding the comparison to tandems:

There are tons of privately DZ's all over the country. The whuffos making tandem jumps are informed fully of the risk. If a whuffo went in at a DZ, even if his family went nuts with lawsuits, etc, not much would happen to the privately owned DZ, let alone skydiving as a whole, since there are so many DZ's.

There is a jumpable bridge, publicly owned (OK, I'm assuming here, correct me if I'm wrong), that is a singularity of sorts. The whuffos making BASE jumps off of it are NOT well informed of the risk. If a whuffo went in @ the bridge, it IS possible that the family would go nuts with lawsuits, and they would not only be directed at the tanning salon guy, but also at the state, since the bridge is public (see assumption clause above :$). It IS likely this could have a negative effect not only on the jumpability of the bridge, but also on legal bridge jumping in USA as a whole (since there are not a lot of places like this).

Just my uninformed plane-jumper opinion... :$
www.WingsuitPhotos.com

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i think you are wrong, last time i checked it was almost impossible for someone to get hold of BASE gear as opposed to buying skydiving gear - I myself have refused to sell gear to someone I felt should not have it.



When I called the company that made my base rig and placed the order, all I told them is that I was going to Bridge Day and wanted buy a rig, no questions asked....

I'm not faulting anyone, I'm simply want to point out that there is no way for them not to sell gear to "just anyone". It wouldn't take much for a whuffo to skim through a few pages on the intenet and learn enough to talk semi-intelligently about base jumping. I've never been asked for any credentials when buying skydiving or base gear. Skydiving gear stores, could at least ask for USPA information or somehting along those lines if they wanted to really tighten up, but what are base gear manufacturers going to do? I can see it now, you'll need give them refferences and mentor information until you've made a name for yourself in the sport...

Ganja "There's no way to police some things..." Rodriguez

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how ya doing will! hope all is cool and you enjoyed the "walk in the park"



Walk in the park? The White Rabbit is now known as Biff the Bunny! B| Made 2 there (one FF, one SL), went to the cheese E the next morning. I checked out the landing area, looked up and down that valley of death and elected not to jump. Got some cool footage of NeilQ jumping it though. I still want to do it, but not just yet - that place is a fucking full-on experience.

Will

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Think about these two scenarios:

(1) An experienced BASE jumper over-delays and hits the water just as his canopy is coming out of the container. He dies upon impact.

(2) An inexperienced local tanning guy static lines an 18 year-old female from the same bridge. She is unstable on her launch, going head down and through the lines as the canopy is extracted. Since she is wearing shoes with eyelets, her foot is caught on a steering line. With the 14 mph winds that day, she is blown into the boulders on the North side of the river. She dies upon impact with the rocks.

Which scenario do you think will cause the local community to cry out for regulation or an outright ban on BASE jumping? Scenario #2 is far worse than #1.
(c)2010 Vertical Visions. No unauthorized duplication permitted. <==For the media only

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#47 Fred,
Age: 28
Cliff Jump
Verdon, France
Reports describe Fred, from Nice, France, as having no previous BASE jumps, no training, no experienced jumper with him, etc. He purchased BASE gear, picked an under-hung location to launch from (not one of Verdon's regular launch points), pivoted off the launch, went on his back, and struck the cliff in freefall. This fatality caused BASE gear manufacturers to start better screening their customers prior to the sale of BASE equipment.

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My question to several of you is this. If you don't BASE jump, or if you haven't ever been to the Perrine, how can you adequately post a response to this thread? You don't see me posting over at the CRW forum......simply because I don't know crap about CRW.



if you missed this post, then please read it........


aint that the truth!

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For the skydivers that aren't familiar with this object, it is the only bridge in the U.S. that is legal to jump 365 days a year. Some of the local non-jumpers have wanted to close the bridge to BASE jumping for a while. It's already being criticized, thanks to a few select individuals jumping from the rail, jumping with skis, and jumping with a surfboard. We're trying to remedy that situation for the same reason we're discussing the amusement park jumps...we want to keep the bridge.

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As others have already pointed out. If someone wants to get BASE gear they will. But we are starting to get sidetracked here and not focus on the original question which is "what is this guy doing wrong?"

I don't really buy the mal scenarios, not saying it "can't" happen, but a static line deployed bagged system is not going to allow someone to get tangled up in the lines unstable or not for that 14 +/- feet of static line. The biggest risk is a static line injury if the static line is not controled prior to the person leaving the platform which constitutes a few feet of unstowed static line. But again, I digress.

I still think what this guy is doing is pretty stupid on his part. As far as his being "qualified" I have to kind of laugh at the thought of people in the BASE community requiring someone to be properly qualified. Who "qualifies" people in BASE? Besides the few that actually run a course I find it hard to believe that everyone who BASES wasn't out there on the thin edge at one point in their BASE career.


Do unexperienced or poorly experienced people teach others to Birdman? Without a question in my mind, it happens. Do I get bent out of shape or think those people need to be stopped? If I did, I'd be perpetually pissed off. But again, this isn't about me or trying to compare it to something else. It is a simple question, feel free to answer it and only it, as I am not trying to debating with anyone. I simply want to know what you think this guy is doing that is wrong and why?
"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

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a static line deployed bagged system is not going to allow someone to get tangled up in the lines unstable or not for that 14 +/- feet of static line.



Something to consider: it's a lot more than 14 feet.

I just measured a 36ft round used by the U.S. Air Force. From the apex to the risers was 34 feet and 4 inches. Now, add a "15ft shroud line" as he calls it, and you are looking at nearly 50 feet until the entire system is tensioned. It is at this point that the jumper will be "righted" from whatever body position they are in.

A drop of 50ft is close to a 2-second delay and I've seen plenty of people get seriously unstable on a 2 second delay...

Bryan

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how would you feel about an inexperienced wingsuit pilot teaching an inexperienced skydiver to fly a wingsuit? Bad idea?



Yes.

Ilegal? No.

The point is, you can think the guy is a nut, wacko, idiot, jerk, bastard, whatever. But fucking with his income, and disturbing the way he chooses to run his perfectly legal business is wrong. Heck it's probably ilegal too. Intent to defraud maybe?
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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

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My concern is what's at stake...the bridge. If it got shut down, it'd be similar to shutting down half of the drop zones in the U.S.



Then form a regulatory body, get it approved by the powers that control activities at the bridge, and THEN you can control what activities happen there.

Till then this guy has broken no laws I can see, and doesn't warrent your tampering of his business. To guard against activities like some you have suggested I suggest he take non refundable deposits.

Don't get me wrong. I think the guy is a fool, and a fatality could hamper activities at TF. But it's not YOUR bridge. If you wish to get him to stop, try the route listed above, or maybe write a detailed letter to him about your feelings. Check out his operation, he may suprise you. Or not.

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Even if you don't know much about BASE, as a skydiver, I'm sure you see at least SOME lack of knowledge. He's telling wannabes that "BASE is completely safe, a parachute won't malfunction, all you need to freefall the bridge is a SKYDIVING rig."



And we don't do the same in skydiving? Dumbing things down for the tandem students? I know his text sound pretty dumb to us, maybe it's writen that way to appease the wuffos. Maybe he's that dumb and just gotten lucky so far.

Hey, maybe you could look over his operation, help him clean it up a bit, and open a school with him, cutting yourself into the profits?

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I personally don't think it's a good idea, period. But risking the bridge is a VERY BAD IDEA.



I agree that it's an added level of exposure, but barring a fatality I would say this guy is going to have less of a negative impact as viewed by the powers that control the bridge that some disrespectful, rule breaking, experienced BASE jumper. We don't know of any of those do we?

Regulation of sites is what has the US in this mess of illegal jumping anyway. Who burnt Yosemity? Wuffos trying to make a buck? Rock climbers who pack all their shit out with them?

Saving people from themselves is an almost noble, yet totaly usless task. Better to spend energy both teaching those that wish to learn, and focusing on doing it better yourself (applies to more than BASE of course.)

I am now going to try and remove myself from this discusion, as I am starting to believer the saying about "Arguing on the internet is like running in the Special Olympics........"
;)
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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

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If teaching someone to fly a wingsuit isn't illegal, can I come do it at your dz? I don't own a wingsuit, I've never jumped one, but I HAVE made a few skydives, so that means it's OK for me to do it, right?

But I want to come to YOUR DROP ZONE to do it. It might not be illegal, but what would you say if I showed up at your drop zone with an old ripped up canopy sewn to my jumpsuit, with 12 other jumpsuits, 10 people who have never made a skydive, and said I was charging them $110 a jump...what would you say?

Is it sinking in yet? Don't forget...I'm coming to YOUR DROP ZONE to do it. Not only that, but I'm going to 50% of the drop zones in the country to do the same thing. So...what do you say?

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My question to several of you is this. If you don't BASE jump, or if you haven't ever been to the Perrine, how can you adequately post a response to this thread? You don't see me posting over at the CRW forum......simply because I don't know crap about CRW.



You may not know about CRW, but some people might know a little about BASE, and a lot about the larger issues surounding this, EVEN if they don't jump.

Does the manufacturer of a high performance parachute need to fly one to build it? Does the designer of an Indy car have to be a race driver to design it?

I have yet to make a BASE jump, I have been to TF. I have ground crewed more than a few BASE jumps. I have worked in a rigging loft, I have sold gear for 5 years, I have seen more types of equipment (BASE, Skydiving, Military) than I can recall. I have bent the ear of some of the worlds best BASE jumpers (I do intend to flick something one of these days).

Does the fact I haven't made a fick make me unwelcome here? Does it automaticaly mean I don't know what I'm talking about? I doubt it.

(So much for taking my toys and going home....:P)
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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

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Guess what, JP...WE ARE THE GOVERNING BODY. If you don't like the fact that BASE jumpers regulate ourselves, stick to swooping and wingsuit jumping.

And re-read the thread...IT IS NOT A BUSINESS. In fact, read my original post. You're a non-BASE jumper, so why don't you let us handle this? And while you're re-reading the first post, notice that he does require non-refundable deposits.

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I am not arguing the lengths of the whole system. I am saying that a standard military static line is 14' with the snap link. It could be longer if the static line extender was added or it could be shorter if he routes it around and object and back on itself, etc. Agreed, 50 feet is way plenty of time to get unstable but the nature of the system he is using will initiate deployment as soon as the person leaves the platform and the lengths you spoke of have to come out in sequential order. At approx 16 feet( 14 feet static line plus the canvas D bag) the chute is being extracted and the Apex of the canopy is already being elongated.The force of this process is going to right the jumper into a head high position no matter what position they are in when they leave the platform. Having worked with the Airborne test board on static line deployed systems and body position, I have tried every ridiculous position one might get into, some you have to work at, like forward flips and all end up with the jumper head high by the time lines begin to stretch. I know this because I have done it and I watched plenty of high speed video of it afterwards.

But again, I am not here to discuss the system this guy is using or anything else. I just asked a question, that so far, no one has answered. What is this guy doing that is wrong?

From what I can see, he is legally jumping from this B, it's not a "secret" location, others have/do it with other contraptions strapped to themselves and he does give them some training prior. So he isn't breaking any laws or burning the site. Aside from the inherent safety concern, which shouldn't even be a factor IMO, we are after all talking about jumping off of a bridge. Unless this guy is using unservicable equipment, doesn't have a chase boat or doesn't put a life jacket on the people, how can you say he is either dangerous or unqualified more than anyone else who chooses to jump off? Do I agree with this practice? Hell no. Do I understand your concern for the perception of the sport? Yes I do. The way I see it, you have 2 choices here.

1. You(the BASE community) can distance yourselves from this guy and hope he doesn't have any accidents that will shed an unwelcome light on the sport and or close this B for everyone.

2. Someone could go and check his operation out, make sure his gear and support is up to snuff. Maybe give him some advice on how to better do a thing or two so that your protecting the site for everyone in the long run.
"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

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Then form a regulatory body, get it approved by the powers that control activities at the bridge, and THEN you can control what activities happen there.



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Regulation of sites is what has the US in this mess of illegal jumping anyway.



These two statements seem to be at odds. Do you think it's a good idea to seek regulation from the authorities?



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Who burnt Yosemity? Wuffos trying to make a buck? Rock climbers who pack all their shit out with them?



Many BASE jumpers would argue that it was folks with "skydiver mentality". There's a largish cultural divide between the two sports.
-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

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And I haven't pissed on this guy's parade...YET. When I call him Sep. 3 and say "Uh, sorry, we chickened out," THEN I will be pissing on his parade. He'll be down $550, with one lonely wannabe he has to turn away.

I can't get behind that. I say "chicken out" now and save the poor guy some grief. Life dealt him a tanning salon in Idaho. At least give him some pity. ;)

Edited to add: This post in no way condones this guy's practice.
"¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯"

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I have tried every ridiculous position one might get into, some you have to work at, like forward flips and all end up with the jumper head high by the time lines begin to stretch. I know this because I have done it and I watched plenty of high speed video of it afterwards.



I've seen a student BASE jumper launch so head low (on a PCA deployment) that they flipped through the risers and gave themself a step through. The system exerted virtually zero force on the jumper prior to reaching line stretch.
-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

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If teaching someone to fly a wingsuit isn't illegal, can I come do it at your dz? I don't own a wingsuit, I've never jumped one, but I HAVE made a few skydives, so that means it's OK for me to do it, right?



Sure, knock your self out. Oh you might want to find out if the PRIVATELY OWNED dz I jump at has any rules concerning that. (They do.)

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But I want to come to YOUR DROP ZONE to do it. It might not be illegal, but what would you say if I showed up at your drop zone with an old ripped up canopy sewn to my jumpsuit, with 12 other jumpsuits, 10 people who have never made a skydive, and said I was charging them $110 a jump...what would you say?



Again, knock your self out. But you might want to check and see if the PRIVATELY OWNED dz I jump at has any rules about that. (They do.)

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Is it sinking in yet? Don't forget...I'm coming to YOUR DROP ZONE to do it. Not only that, but I'm going to 50% of the drop zones in the country to do the same thing. So...what do you say?



No. It's not. I don't think you've grasped the fact that the bidge is a PUBLIC resource, one which you'd like to be selective about letting people use. Maybe you'd like to tell 96 year old grandmas who drive reall slow in the fast lane with their blinker on that they are not allowed to use the roads.

Is it sinking in yet?
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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

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I'm not a Perrine local, but I have been there enough in the last eight weeks to know that I've yet to see this guy with his clients (at least I haven't seen him on weekends when you'd think he'd be doing most of his jumps) and I tend to agree with DiabloPilot here. Unless this guy is seen doing unsafe things at the exit points and endangering the lives of his clients, then who are we to judge what he is doing? What makes person A who is hucking themselves off of the bridge have any more rights than person B? If his clients start asking us questions about BASE, then rest assured we will be telling them our opinions of what is right and what is wrong between what they do and what we do. But unless this guy is engaging in unsafe jumping practices, we shouldn't be trying to destroy his business.

I still think BASE as a tourism activity is pretty fucked up. But it's not my bridge, it's not your bridge. Shit it's not even Tom's, Don's, Meghans (or any other locals) bridge. As long as the good people of Twin Falls and the state of Idaho tells us that it is still legal to jump from their bridge, we must all learn to co-exist and obey the rules which have been setup. Of course I don't want to mention anything about the rules against attaching things to the bridge (like a static line) as I hope someday I too can do some static line jumps as long as I have some ground crew who will remove the left over breakaway cord once I have jumped. :)


Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

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But again, I am not here to discuss the system this guy is using or anything else. I just asked a question, that so far, no one has answered. What is this guy doing that is wrong?



It seems to me that several posters have tried to answer that question.

The reasons given included:

1) Antiquated gear
2) Inadequate preparation for both students and instructor
3) Possible impact on US BASE if there is an accident
4) Potential injury to participants who are not fully apprised of the risks

It seems somewhat disingenuous to merely repeat the question, and disregard the answers that have already been given in the thread. Just because you disagree with the answer someone gives does not mean they didn't give an answer.
-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

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