Why do gear manufactures promise a date that they can't deliver on

[Unstable 8]

Okay, As I follow this thread - It would be really usefull for me to know How Long it really takes to make a rig start to finish - In terms on man-hours spent working on that Rig. The manufacturer I ordered from said it takes around 40 hours to build a rig - Is this about right?? Could somebody offer some info here??
I've looked at the previous forums where this has been brought up - I'm suprised to say that none of them have ever really offered a clear answer...

=========Shaun ==========

[Amazon 7]

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Kelly at Velocity Sports shipped my Infinity in 4.5 weeks after order (back in May '01).

He estimated 5 weeks.

I understand his lead time has become a bit longer now.
---

Right now they are at 6 weeks ( as of sunday when I was there). I got my Infinity in April of last year and I ordered it in mid MArch (2 weeks). Its a very seasonal thing winters they get caught up.. summers when people are jumping alot and wanting a new rig that number goes way up. Lots of people ordering so the orders back up to longer delivery times.

Now I wonder how long it will be till my Samurai is done....

[GravityGirl 0]

Lesson:

Order your custom gear NOW to have it ready for Spring/Summer!

Operators are standing by, ready willing and able to serve. DiabloPilot, SkyBytch.... do you agree?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Peace and Blue Skies!
Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear!

[hookitt 0]

To go over what is involved in building a complete rig from start to finish is way outside the scope of this thread.

Parts include:

Reserve Pilot chute
Reserve Free-bag and Bridle
Reserve Handle
Cutaway Handle
Main Deployment bag
Main Pilot chute.
Main Risers
Main Toggles
Reserve Toggles
The container itself including leg pads
Harness
what else?

Just the container by itself with out any of the components or the harness has many peices to it.

Cutting out all these pieces is quite a process as well.

A pattern exists for each individual piece. The patterns are layed out on the cordura and/or parapac and traced. Then it's cut out by hand with a hot knife.

Then there's the foam padding, plastic, balistic cloth, many pieces of webbing and elastic. grommets, clear vinyl, cypres channel and pocket ... what did I miss?

There are a lot of pieces to a rig. Pick a rig apart one day. See what it's made of. Think about that puzzle that's been sewn together.

Once it's all together, someone has to look over every inch of it, every grommet every seam... etc.

Once it's gone through a QA process, the cable housings need to be installed and tacked down. The handles put in place, elastic keepers put in place. Closing loops, package up all the pieces and close up the rig ready to ship.

There is a lot of work involved when it comes to completing a harness and container system.

There it is in a nutshell. The readers digest condensed version of building a rig.

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[GroundZero 0]

Order sooner than later...

This industry had a major slowdown... the economy rolled back hard!
our 4 weeks are now 5-6 weeks... next week may be 8-10 weeks...

Order everything sooner than later... our industry is blossoming again!

Chris

Precision

[Tonto 1]

Bummer. My Mirage G4 was delivered a day or 2 earlier than promised. Those fellow JSC Instructors who ordered from Aerodyne have been told another 5 weeks, which is 8 weeks longer than mine took.

Bottom line is regardless of manufacturer, when you get it, you'll love it, and that's what counts.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[riggerrob 558]

Good point about ordering now - in the middle of winter - when business is slow.
If you wait until summer to order, then you will probably wait until end of summer for delivery.

Another consideration is ordering through a major dealer. Most major dealers already have production slots reserved. They may have a reserved production slot next week that they are desperately trying to convert to a custom order. If dealers do not specify, the factory will just sew up a medium-sized, medium-coloured, medium-harnessed version of the most popular model and the dealer is obliged to pay for it.
Also, when Kate Cooper (Square One owner) - or any other major dealer - calls, factories listen.
Sorry to hurt your feelings, but individual owners calling every day are a nuisance that just slows production.
Hee! Hee!
Reminds me of when I was working at Rigging Innovations. When the same customer called for the fourth time in the same week, I asked him to decide whether my time was better spent talking on the phone or sewing on his rig?

[riddler 0]

Maybe a better way to do business?

Container manufacturers take a 50% deposit at time of order. If they want the remaining money on time, they build the rig on time. Contract spells out they get paid less and less the later they are. If they are one week late, they only get 40% for second payment. Two weeks late, 30%, etc. If it's really late, buyer gets container for the original 50%. Contract also spells that when the container is done, buyer must present final payment within one week, or lose both deposit and container, at which time, manufacturer can sell container to someone else.

I sometimes structure contracts like this for IT work. Seems that money is the best incentive to get the work done on time.

Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD

[diablopilot 2]

I'd say 35-45 man hours is close to what it takes to build a rig and all the parts that go with it.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[diablopilot 2]

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Who?

There are plenty of manufacturers that ended up closing up shop for one reason or another. In recent history:

Flightline (Reflex)
Stunts Adventure Equipment (Eclipse)
GlidePath
Quantum Parachutes
GQ Parachutes

Some have been sucessful outside the sport market, others, well haven't.

A look in either of the Parachut Manuals will reveal many.....

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[diablopilot 2]

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Maybe a better way to do business?

Interesting idea.

I think most manufacturers would get a chuckle out of it, and sugest you ask their competitor if they'd be willing to do it that way. Sometimes the reasons for the delays are completely out of the manufacturers control. What is a manufacturer suposed to do when the hardware they have had on back order for the last 6 months shows up, and half of it fails to meet saftey inspections standards? They can yell and scream at the hardware manufacturer all they want but the point is theres not a huge number of companies building this stuff.

How many companies do you think build hardware like we use? How many manufacture the fabric we use in our canopies?

Other times delays are the fault of the sport equipment manufacturers. Puting one order ahead of another. Staffing problems. Holidays.

It's not a big deal. Unlike years before there are MANY options when it comes to manufactures. It's all about research. If you want brand X container then research what their REAL WORLD delivery times are, don't just take on faith what they say they are. If the production time is unsutible to you ask a dealer if any other brands have a better time frame.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[sducoach 0]

Jim,

Assuming,
1. It was "promised".
2. It was stated 10 weeks.

I'd agree.

However,

Do you know or is this an opinion and please, define reasonable. Reasonable from who's perspective, yours, mine, the manufacturer, or the purchaser who wants it?

Blues,

J.E.

James 4:8

[rigging65 0]

It takes us about 24 man hours to actually build a rig, then another 8 or so to build parts (we're now at about 32 hours here), and into that processing time, inspection time, etc. and I'd say 40-50 is a reasonable answer, at least for our little enterprise...

Of course, if you build a bunch of parts at once (bags, pilot chutes, risers, etc.) not only does it take less time per unit to build them, but you have them on hand when the order comes in. This doesn't detract the man hours necessary to build them though, so they do need to be added into the over all equation.

I'd say this: If you paid enough money and all the parts were done ahead of time, I'm guess you could get an order into the shop and a rig out the door in 3 days without too much trouble, with only one person working on it.

"...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward.
For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

[Jimbo 0]

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Do you know or is this an opinion and please, define reasonable. Reasonable from who's perspective, yours, mine, the manufacturer, or the purchaser who wants it?

I believe that if a manufacturer tells me that gear will be delivered in X weeks that it ought to be delivered in X weeks, give or take 20%. If we assume a 10 week delivery time, that gives them 12. If a 10 week delivery suddenly turns into 15 or 20, that's 50% or 100% longer than the original estimate, that is unreasonable.

People have said that manufacturers might have run out of material X, or part Y. In the manufacturing business it's important to place materials orders far enough in advance that you'll never run out.

My gripe isn't that Sunpath has a 26 week delivery time, people know that going in. My gripe is about that delivery time turning into 36 or 46 weeks when the estimate was 26.

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[mfrese 0]

Haven't been back there in a while, but I remember visiting Deland and touring both the Racer and Mirage lofts, and being very impressed with the way both assembly lines worked. I'm guessing they may limit the number of full-time employees to keep costs down, and hire additional riggers when they have a lot of orders...maybe Bill H. or one of the other riggers can comment.

As for my own two rigs...ordered a RI Talon when I started, took 8 weeks, but it was delivered right on time. Second rig, I walked into PD Source, said "Hey, those Mirage containers look nice", worked with them to figure out the container for the main and reserve I wanted, picked a color I liked, pulled it off the wall and tried it on, and got out my credit card.

Doctor I ain't gonna die,
Just write me an alibi! ---- Lemmy/Slash

[rigging65 0]

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In the manufacturing business it's important to place materials orders far enough in advance that you'll never run out.

I agree with everything you said, except this quote. It would be impossible for most manufacturers to keep "on hand" what they need for any given order. The costs would simply be prohibitive. Over time, a given mfg. will get a feel for what they need to stock more of, but often you have to order specific materials or parts for a specific order.

Now, with the usual lead time for most anything in the market place today (suits, rigs, canopies, whatever), there is usually plenty of time to order what you're going to need, long before you actually start building that customer's specific product. Sometimes not though.

With the costs of some of the items you guys want on rigs, suits, etc., mfgs. can't order them until they have a need...and if the vendor has a problem or flails, the mfg. tends to take heat for it. "Why don't you have that in stock??!!??" answer: "Cashflow and overhead. We'll get it to you as soon as the Vendor gets it to us."

Good quality, fast delivery, cheap pricing...pick any two.

"...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward.
For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

[riggermick 6]

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Okay, As I follow this thread - It would be really usefull for me to know How Long it really takes to make a rig start to finish - In terms on man-hours spent working on that Rig. The manufacturer I ordered from said it takes around 40 hours to build a rig - Is this about right?? Could somebody offer some info here??
I've looked at the previous forums where this has been brought up - I'm suprised to say that none of them have ever really offered a clear answer...

Assuming that the infrastructure is all set up, the correct materials are present, the technician (s) are highly experienced and the rig is a non exotic (plain) design, it would take about 10 hours with two people. Add a third person to build the peripherials (bag's, risers, pilotchutes etc) and you would be able to ship the rig at the end of the next day. That's two full business days assuming nothing goes wrong, like accedently setting the almost finished rig down on a hot knife ( yes, I've done it. But only once). The fastest I've ever been able to build a rig (no peripherials)on my own (with no breaks) is 9 hours start to finish. Now bear in mind I've made a lot of rigs and knew exactly what I was doing, but it still is a lot of work, so maybe we all should cut the manufacturers a little slack. Hope this helps.

Mick.

[Biscuit 0]

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Let's not get too upset. If you know what it like to work in this industry, you would realize these are not mass produced items. These are hand made by a crew of as small as four people. working for next to nothing with no benefits.

Now now, Mr Crackers.

I happen to know that most of the people on your crew are pulling down 100K + annually, living la vida loca, and dating some mighty fine ladies.

M

******************************************

The last mosquito that bit me had to book into the Betty Ford Clinic. -Patsy

[diablopilot 2]

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I happen to know that most of the people on your crew are pulling down 100K + annually, living la vida loca,

That's a good one! I'm still ROTFLMAO!

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[KrisFlyZ 0]

As I was walking into the lobby of my apartment complex, it hit me, 5 weeks ago I had ordered my Mirage G4!! Has it arrived?

I was'nt expecting it to be there, and since I am injured was not really bothered about it being hypothetically late. I asked the security guy at the reception. "If it is there it is a big package" I said.

Sure enough, there it was!!! 5 weeks to the day with Christmas and the New Year holidays, I was expecting a delay.

It's Gorgeous!!! Will post pics later.

Thanks JP!!

[diablopilot 2]

Right on! I wanna see!

4 weeks and shipping minus the holidays, and
they're still hitting the mark. The guys are GOOD!

Now you just gotta get better so you can get out and play, although i'd lay even odds that you're trying the thing on repeatedly tonight!

Yeah, we know you're checking yourself out in the bathroom mirror while wearing it!

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[Kris 0]

I had the same good experience. Mirage had my rig to me within 10 working days, no rush fee. And it was an off the wall color pattern with all options, too.

Sky, Muff Bro, Rodriguez Bro, and
Bastion of Purity and Innocence!™

[slug 1]

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Remember almost all of the dates given by manufacturers are ESTIMATED dates.

A good point that bears repeating.

Every manufacturer has at one point or another delivered both before and after the date they estimated they would. Always remember that quoted delivery times or estimated completion dates are just that - estimates.

Five weeks "late" isn't bad at all compared to the 10+ weeks "late" some other folks have had to wait lately.

Also, things can happen between the time you are given a completion date and when that date comes - many of them things that are out of the manufacturer's control and that could not have been predicted (delayed hardware and fabric shipments are not uncommon).

The estimated delivery date is a scam! In this case estimated means "we don't know" or worse we know and aren't telling because you won't order our product.

What have the dealers done to inform their customers of this problem? by using the term "estimated". They have ordered a bunch of rigs and have the data based on past orders.

A auto repair shop has to give a "estimate" on the cost of repairs if the cost of repairs is going to exceed their estimate by $X than the customer has to be notified prior to proceeding this is the law in some states because auto estimates were a scam!

Mail order companies are required by law to notify customers when their order can't be filled by a certain date and offer a refund.

Befor the internet this was a local secrete. Want to solve the problem someone do a poll listing manufatures and differences between estimated delivery time and actual. Then your a informed consumer

What would happen if a manufactor told you the actual delivery time and then subtracted $100 per every week they were late. Prices would rise to pay the late fee, manufactor's with long delivery time's would lose business.Manufactors who delivered on time would be rewarded by a increase in their business

Some manufactor's had a agreement where some of the larger dealers could place orders in advance so when a customer wanted a rig they could jump to the front of the line shortening the wait time.

There is a easy solution to this problem find out who's doing what (poll) and then make a informed choice based on actual delivery dates rather than a "estimated" (open ended) delivery date.
Gotta love the possiabilites offered by the proper use of the english language.

Maybe the PIA wants to set some standards. But I doubt it they are a maufures trade group. USPA could do a poll and publish the results but they represent the DZO's.

Who represents the skydivers consumer. Power to the consumer. Information is power!

[Tonto 1]

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Good point about ordering now - in the middle of winter - when business is slow.

Except that now - It's the middle of summer - and we're cooking. It's only winter in half the world - and that's the half you live in.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[dinog3 0]

***Wings offers the same service. I think it kind of sucks. Let's say I order a rig with a est. delivery time of 8 weeks over another company who is 12 weeks. Delivery time between these two manufacturers is the deciding factor in this case. I have no use for it before 8 weeks because my DZ is down for the winter. Now just when they get ready to start cutting my rig(mabey the container is built but not the harness), they get a bunch of orders for RUSH delivery. Next thing it is 14 weeks because I get knocked out of line. I should not have to pay for rush service just to keep my place in the line. Rush service should be on the manufacturers time(strictly overtime), not on my time(waiting) Should I be penalized just because someone is willing to pay more to cut in line?

I totally agree with your statement. I now have the job that Bill had here at Mirage. If you read the part it being very expensive, it generally deters people because we also have short delivery time. I heard that Wings will do a rush for 150.00 which is cheap and more people take advantage of it but it pushes everyone elses order back. By having quick delivery times and an expensive rush price, it keeps evryone happy. JT