basehoundsam 0 #1 May 12, 2004 It saddens me deeply to inform everyone that the cave has been closed to BASE jumping indefinitely. There are a few wealthy eco-happy individuals in Mexico who have been spreading lies and putting pressure on the government to stop all forms of access into the cave. They are starting with us because we are an easy target and have no full time representation in Mexico. They are claiming that we are killing hundreds of birds a week when we are there. They are also saying we are a super un-ecologically friendly. These are all spiteful lies . I have been on the phone with other two groups and we are all working on giving support to the local indigenous indian council and government. The locals want us to continue returning to this site. The people who are making these claims are not from the immediate area, and have never been to the bottom of the cave. They are making false claims, and unfortunately the local state newspaper ran an article reinforcing these lies. There are also other political agendas working here, as a commercial "Caretaker" company from Mexico City is striving to take access control away from the local Huasteco indian council. They claim they can better manage the site.($$$$$$) I have been going down to the cave for several years, and know that the area has benefited from our efforts. I am from Mexico and have watched the country grow over the last 30 years. What I see in Aquismon is children with food, clothing, and hope. When tours go down there we hire porters, use local families to cook our meals, rent camping areas from the village, buy incredible amounts of beverages and food, gas, transportation,permit fees, and all around services. The incredible amount of financial benefit the community receives trickles down to every facet of life there. I donated a laptop computer to the school there this year, and I know one of the groups has been actively trying to get running water to the village. We lower down locals into the cave and have a cleaning day on every trip. (It's amazing how many people come visit the cave and throw trash into it!!) I hate to put things in black and white, but ............... which is worse?? 6 different groups going to the cave for a total of 7 weeks and about 60 peoples worth of impact , spending approx. 60,000 us dollars in one of the poorest parts of all of Mexico.... or the world for that part, Or in order to regain the economic impact the area receives from jumpers, at 10 pesos or 1 us dollar per visitor, 60 thousand more tourists to trash on the place. At this point the cave is closed until further notice. I am planning on going down in June to organize some support for access. I'm hoping to convince the government to at least do a study, to prove to them that we are zero impact to the birds. We have successfully worked with the local council who have always monitored all of our activities and kept us on point with protecting the birds. I hope the Federal and State government will reinstate the local council. I am asking all jumpers and even future jumpers to help with a letter writing campaign to the Department of Tourism in San Luis Potosi. A flood of letters would really help change the governments mind. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE take the time to write a quick letter saying at least the following: If you have been to the cave, 1. Thank you for allowing us to experience the culture and magical time in Aquismon. 2. While at the cave we as a group and as individuals have always been very ecology minded and protective of the birds and there natural environment. We have always waited till all birds have exited the cave, and stopped jumping/making noise as soon as it became apparent that the birds would return. 3. Inside of the cave I have never seen any signs of dead or injured birds. 4. We feel that the benefits to the area we bring are important to the local indigenous people who live near the cave. We feel that the assistance we provide to the schools and community are important to the future of the area, as well as its youth. 5. We respectfully ask that you help us retain permission to legally come back and practice our sport in Aquismon. We also ask that a real study be done to disprove the lies that BASE jumpers kill or harm birds at the Cave. 6. Please don't forget to thank them repeatedly for helping us with this cause, and ask them to contact you personally if you can be of any assistance. If you have not, but want to potentially some day go there, 1. Thank you for in the past allowing BASE jumping in the cave. 2. We feel that if we come to Mexico we would very much like to go to and experience the Cave. 3. We consider the experience to be a lifetime achievement , and would very much like the government to allow BASE jumping to continue there. 4. That you would like to support the local economy and community by spending your limited vacation time in Aquismon. 5. We respectfully ask that you help us retain permission to legally come back and practice our sport in Aquismon. We also ask that a real study be done to disprove the lies that BASE jumpers kill or harm birds at the Cave. 6. Please don't forget to thank them repeatedly for helping us with this cause, and ask them to contact you personally if you can be of any assistance. Please send to : [email protected] Sorry to be the bearer of BAD NEWS!!!! Thank-you everyone in advance for your support, Jay Epstein Ramirez www.adrenalineexploits.com p.s. please feel free to email me directly if anyone can be of any assistance: [email protected] Jay Epstein Ramirez www.adrenalineexploits.com Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 25 #2 May 12, 2004 Jay, Two questions: 1) Do you have a snail mail address to send letters to? At least in the States, snail mail letters (especially non-form letters) usually get much more attention than email in political campaigns. 2) Is there any way you could write up a letter in Spanish that those of us without the language skills could attach to our own letters? That might help us look more interested and considerate. Thanks! Does anyone here have the web skills to set up a page that automatically generates an email with the sender's name and return email address?-- Tom Aiello [email protected] SnakeRiverBASE.com Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflygoddess 0 #3 May 13, 2004 wow, I can't beleive BASE jumpers kill hundreds of birds a week!? WTF? How? The noise of opening scares them to death? Good points Tom. We should do this via snail mail with a spanish translation attachment. maybe send in videos of people jumping into the cave to show what happens. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jonstark 8 #4 May 13, 2004 Quotewow, I can't beleive BASE jumpers kill hundreds of birds a week!? WTF? How? The noise of opening scares them to death? ----------------------------------------- If the party leaves a rope dangling into the cave the birds hit it on their way out in the morning. They have to climb out in a slowly ascending spiral. They swirl out of the cave in such a huge torrent in the very early morning and can't see the rope hanging there. I would imagine that a rope left hanging for the morning swarm might indeed kill 50-100 birds. Cavers and BASErs alike must be aware of this hazard and be sensative to the birds' need for clear airspace during the morning. jon In the evening the birds go back in in a different manner and seem to miss the rope. They just dive in and their flight path is steeper then when they have to circle climb in the AM. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites TomAiello 25 #5 May 13, 2004 QuoteIf the party leaves a rope dangling into the cave the birds hit it on their way out in the morning. I'm pretty sure that every jumping group knows this, though, and no jumpers leave a line hanging into the cave.-- Tom Aiello [email protected] SnakeRiverBASE.com Share this post Link to post Share on other sites basehoundsam 0 #6 May 13, 2004 Hey Tom, I'll get a snail mail address Monday from the tourism people in San Luis. As far as the translations thing. Everyone in upper management at tourism speaks and reads english. I believe that the emails in english will actually have more effect. Thanks for the support Tom..... Jay Epstein Ramirez Share this post Link to post Share on other sites basehoundsam 0 #7 May 13, 2004 If the party leaves a rope dangling into the cave the birds hit it on their way out in the morning. They have to climb out in a slowly ascending spiral. They swirl out of the cave in such a huge torrent in the very early morning and can't see the rope hanging there. I would imagine that a rope left hanging for the morning swarm might indeed kill 50-100 birds. Cavers and BASErs alike must be aware of this hazard and be sensitive to the birds' need for clear airspace during the morning. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jon, Unfortunately ....... what you are repeating is basic myth. I appreciate that you have obviously been to the cave, but there have been many caving group that have not just left a rope, but also spent the night in the cave. There have been multiple groups that have actually rappelled down super early morning to film the birds leaving. Never once has a bird/rope strike been reported or seen. The council members have even spent the night in the cave before, just to see if a rope poses a danger. If there was a major problem with bird/rope strikes , there would be a pile of dead swallows at the impact point right below the rope every morning. As there is no air current , you would expect them to all be within 100-200 feet of the rope. This just is not the case. Statements like "I would imagine that a rope left hanging for the morning swarm might indeed kill 50-100 birds." are just that ..... speculation. Unless you have seen with your own eyes these 50-100 birds dying, then you are doing just that..... "IMAGINING". Making unsupported statements like this is exactly what the few eco-people who want to see the cave closed use for ammunition. Setting up a time lapse camera in the morning, or doing a real study would put and end to such unfounded statements. I believe the french guys who aid climbed out had lines hanging for almost three weeks without a single strike. I know the Canadian/French group who tightroped the cave had a tightrope hanging for about 10 days, with no impact to the cave. I heard they even brought a bird research person with them . This entire ban is NOT about "rope-strikes" !!!!! They are claiming that we are hitting birds in freefall, and flying into them under canopy. They are not banning cavers or rope-use activities. Like I said in my original post, it's because there are people representing adventure/sports companies that sell rappelling trips to the cave that they are not losing access. Mexico has a very fragile political environment. Lies are easily spread and embellished..... even to the point of being printed in the newspaper as gospel. Once a movement starts there ....... it can be very difficult and costly to change peoples minds. Thanks, Jay Epstein Ramirez www.adrenalineexploits.com p.s. Don't forget to write a letter......it could be the straw that breaks the tourism camels back!!!!!!!!! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites willh 0 #8 May 13, 2004 I have information by a group who was trying to secure an expedition to the cave and was informed by the people in charge of the site that this all came about because there was a rule broken. Apparently the jumpers have to be out of the cave at a certain time so that when the birds return to the cave the birds aren't in any danger. An group who was jumping there was jumping well beyond a reasonable guideline put forward by the locals. This gave people opposed to the jumping in the first place a good argument against it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dropoutdave 0 #9 May 13, 2004 A pidgeon flew into my patio doors this morning in full flight, it was fine but flew away feeling a bit stupid. Im pretty sure a window would pose more of a threat than a rope. ------------------------------------------------------ May Contain Nut traces...... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites TomAiello 25 #10 May 13, 2004 Let's stick this to the top for a while. I've jumped many of the world's most popular sites, and the cave is my absolute favorite. I like it better than the walls in Norway, the cliffs in Southern Europe, the buildings in Malaysia, the bridge by my house--heck, better than any other site. It's definitely worth working to save.-- Tom Aiello [email protected] SnakeRiverBASE.com Share this post Link to post Share on other sites KevinMcGuire 0 #11 May 13, 2004 Hey Jay, Perhaps this thread could be cross posted over to the Spanish area where maybe someone one of influence might see it and help. Just as thought Share this post Link to post Share on other sites motherhucker 0 #12 May 13, 2004 Swallows are four to nine inches long. The swallow is small enough to fit into an adult's hand. They weigh about the same as four nickels. Most swallows have dark colors and a light brown spot on their rumps. They have long pointed wings that help them fly higher. Their wings are narrow and they have forked tails. Their feet are weak and curly. The ends of their feet meet together at the base of the feet. Cliff swallows have a white forehead.Ê Males have longer tails than females.Ê ÊÊÊ They have good eyesight that they use to catch bugs. They are very graceful in flight and they catch bugs in the air. They tend to soar high. They make great changes in speed and direction while still remaining graceful.Ê ÊÊÊ We recognize two types of swallows. These are the adult and juvenile cliff swallows. The juvenile's tail is notched more than the adults because each of their tail feathers is more pointed. The juveniles have hints of stripes on their backs and light yellow beaks. They also have short beaks and tails. Ropestrikes are completely ludicrous. Do you really think that a bird that can fly at speeds in excess of 70 mph and routinely identifies and catches flying bugs while in flight won't see [and avoid] a 10-12mm static line hanging 600 ft. into the cave? Swallows are far more agile and have far better eyesight than you can imagine. and BTW, comparing a pigeon to a swallow is like comparing a Mack truck to a Tricycle. mh Share this post Link to post Share on other sites basehoundsam 0 #13 May 19, 2004 I have an address for snail mail to be sent: Delegacion de Turismo Zona Huasteca Calle Juan Saravia # 6 Zona Centro , Ciudad Valles, SLP C.P. 7900 Mexico Attn.: Lic. Alfredo Ortega I also have a new E-mail address to Mr. Ortega. He was very pleasant to talk to today, and will be someone to direct emails to as well. Please take the time to send him a duplicate note, and please resend it to him if his E-mail box is to fill up. [email protected] Today they had a meeting and it sounds like for now...... we are not allowed back. He is informing me of the next meeting when they will finalize the Gov. stance and policy on BASE. I will probably try to rally some support and show up down there for a week or two. Thank-You for all the support, Jay Epstein Ramirez www.adrenalineexploits.com Share this post Link to post Share on other sites freeflygoddess 0 #14 May 20, 2004 email sent....thanks. I hope that when I am ready to jump the cave all of this will be cleared up. Thank you for all of your efforts! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites freakydiver 0 #15 May 20, 2004 Email sent - you probably don't remember me much Sam, but I have a high amount of respect for your professionalism and what you do in Mexico. I really hope these efforts pay off as I know the amount of respect you bring to the table when it comes to the cave and other expeditions. Good luck. -- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." -- Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Michele 1 #16 June 1, 2004 Sorry for poking my head in...but I wanted to ask if me, as a non-BASE jumper, and likely never will be, could write a letter? I've seen vids and think it's a most amazing place, and would be willing to support your efforts if you think it would help. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~ Share this post Link to post Share on other sites freakydiver 0 #17 June 1, 2004 I'm a non base jumper, but know many. -- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." -- Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JOY 0 #18 June 2, 2004 I agree with Tom. My brother and I were there the same trip with Tom a couple years ago and it's truly an awsome place. When I was there, I knew that if this phenomenon were in the US, it would be in a National Park and we'd have to sneak in. It is an environmental treasure as it is so unusual. In any attempt to approach the locals, we have to be willing to work with jump times and times of the year to accomodate the birds. The sound of canopies alone may mess with breeding season and the more sensitive we are to these concerns now, the more the locals may trust us with their cave. Rick Harrison USBA[email protected] Share this post Link to post Share on other sites TomAiello 25 #19 June 9, 2004 Just bumping this. Everyone, BASE jumper, skydiver, or just friend, please write a letter and help us out! Thanks!-- Tom Aiello [email protected] SnakeRiverBASE.com Share this post Link to post Share on other sites leroydb 0 #20 July 7, 2005 Anyone have any updates in what you are doing or response you have gotten? whats the likelyhood it will open again (I knwo it will be jumped agian, but I mean within my lifetime)Leroy ..I knew I was an unwanted baby when I saw my bath toys were a toaster and a radio... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites droquette 0 #21 October 11, 2006 any news on whats up with the cave?HISPA 72 ----- "Muff Brother" 3733 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites MB38 0 #22 October 11, 2006 What sort of postage should one attach to make sure the letter gets there?I really don't know what I'm talking about. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites d_goldsmith 1 #23 October 12, 2006 Good question. What postage do we need to put on it? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites 0
TomAiello 25 #5 May 13, 2004 QuoteIf the party leaves a rope dangling into the cave the birds hit it on their way out in the morning. I'm pretty sure that every jumping group knows this, though, and no jumpers leave a line hanging into the cave.-- Tom Aiello [email protected] SnakeRiverBASE.com Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
basehoundsam 0 #6 May 13, 2004 Hey Tom, I'll get a snail mail address Monday from the tourism people in San Luis. As far as the translations thing. Everyone in upper management at tourism speaks and reads english. I believe that the emails in english will actually have more effect. Thanks for the support Tom..... Jay Epstein Ramirez Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
basehoundsam 0 #7 May 13, 2004 If the party leaves a rope dangling into the cave the birds hit it on their way out in the morning. They have to climb out in a slowly ascending spiral. They swirl out of the cave in such a huge torrent in the very early morning and can't see the rope hanging there. I would imagine that a rope left hanging for the morning swarm might indeed kill 50-100 birds. Cavers and BASErs alike must be aware of this hazard and be sensitive to the birds' need for clear airspace during the morning. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jon, Unfortunately ....... what you are repeating is basic myth. I appreciate that you have obviously been to the cave, but there have been many caving group that have not just left a rope, but also spent the night in the cave. There have been multiple groups that have actually rappelled down super early morning to film the birds leaving. Never once has a bird/rope strike been reported or seen. The council members have even spent the night in the cave before, just to see if a rope poses a danger. If there was a major problem with bird/rope strikes , there would be a pile of dead swallows at the impact point right below the rope every morning. As there is no air current , you would expect them to all be within 100-200 feet of the rope. This just is not the case. Statements like "I would imagine that a rope left hanging for the morning swarm might indeed kill 50-100 birds." are just that ..... speculation. Unless you have seen with your own eyes these 50-100 birds dying, then you are doing just that..... "IMAGINING". Making unsupported statements like this is exactly what the few eco-people who want to see the cave closed use for ammunition. Setting up a time lapse camera in the morning, or doing a real study would put and end to such unfounded statements. I believe the french guys who aid climbed out had lines hanging for almost three weeks without a single strike. I know the Canadian/French group who tightroped the cave had a tightrope hanging for about 10 days, with no impact to the cave. I heard they even brought a bird research person with them . This entire ban is NOT about "rope-strikes" !!!!! They are claiming that we are hitting birds in freefall, and flying into them under canopy. They are not banning cavers or rope-use activities. Like I said in my original post, it's because there are people representing adventure/sports companies that sell rappelling trips to the cave that they are not losing access. Mexico has a very fragile political environment. Lies are easily spread and embellished..... even to the point of being printed in the newspaper as gospel. Once a movement starts there ....... it can be very difficult and costly to change peoples minds. Thanks, Jay Epstein Ramirez www.adrenalineexploits.com p.s. Don't forget to write a letter......it could be the straw that breaks the tourism camels back!!!!!!!!! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
willh 0 #8 May 13, 2004 I have information by a group who was trying to secure an expedition to the cave and was informed by the people in charge of the site that this all came about because there was a rule broken. Apparently the jumpers have to be out of the cave at a certain time so that when the birds return to the cave the birds aren't in any danger. An group who was jumping there was jumping well beyond a reasonable guideline put forward by the locals. This gave people opposed to the jumping in the first place a good argument against it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dropoutdave 0 #9 May 13, 2004 A pidgeon flew into my patio doors this morning in full flight, it was fine but flew away feeling a bit stupid. Im pretty sure a window would pose more of a threat than a rope. ------------------------------------------------------ May Contain Nut traces...... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 25 #10 May 13, 2004 Let's stick this to the top for a while. I've jumped many of the world's most popular sites, and the cave is my absolute favorite. I like it better than the walls in Norway, the cliffs in Southern Europe, the buildings in Malaysia, the bridge by my house--heck, better than any other site. It's definitely worth working to save.-- Tom Aiello [email protected] SnakeRiverBASE.com Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KevinMcGuire 0 #11 May 13, 2004 Hey Jay, Perhaps this thread could be cross posted over to the Spanish area where maybe someone one of influence might see it and help. Just as thought Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
motherhucker 0 #12 May 13, 2004 Swallows are four to nine inches long. The swallow is small enough to fit into an adult's hand. They weigh about the same as four nickels. Most swallows have dark colors and a light brown spot on their rumps. They have long pointed wings that help them fly higher. Their wings are narrow and they have forked tails. Their feet are weak and curly. The ends of their feet meet together at the base of the feet. Cliff swallows have a white forehead.Ê Males have longer tails than females.Ê ÊÊÊ They have good eyesight that they use to catch bugs. They are very graceful in flight and they catch bugs in the air. They tend to soar high. They make great changes in speed and direction while still remaining graceful.Ê ÊÊÊ We recognize two types of swallows. These are the adult and juvenile cliff swallows. The juvenile's tail is notched more than the adults because each of their tail feathers is more pointed. The juveniles have hints of stripes on their backs and light yellow beaks. They also have short beaks and tails. Ropestrikes are completely ludicrous. Do you really think that a bird that can fly at speeds in excess of 70 mph and routinely identifies and catches flying bugs while in flight won't see [and avoid] a 10-12mm static line hanging 600 ft. into the cave? Swallows are far more agile and have far better eyesight than you can imagine. and BTW, comparing a pigeon to a swallow is like comparing a Mack truck to a Tricycle. mh Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
basehoundsam 0 #13 May 19, 2004 I have an address for snail mail to be sent: Delegacion de Turismo Zona Huasteca Calle Juan Saravia # 6 Zona Centro , Ciudad Valles, SLP C.P. 7900 Mexico Attn.: Lic. Alfredo Ortega I also have a new E-mail address to Mr. Ortega. He was very pleasant to talk to today, and will be someone to direct emails to as well. Please take the time to send him a duplicate note, and please resend it to him if his E-mail box is to fill up. [email protected] Today they had a meeting and it sounds like for now...... we are not allowed back. He is informing me of the next meeting when they will finalize the Gov. stance and policy on BASE. I will probably try to rally some support and show up down there for a week or two. Thank-You for all the support, Jay Epstein Ramirez www.adrenalineexploits.com Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflygoddess 0 #14 May 20, 2004 email sent....thanks. I hope that when I am ready to jump the cave all of this will be cleared up. Thank you for all of your efforts! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freakydiver 0 #15 May 20, 2004 Email sent - you probably don't remember me much Sam, but I have a high amount of respect for your professionalism and what you do in Mexico. I really hope these efforts pay off as I know the amount of respect you bring to the table when it comes to the cave and other expeditions. Good luck. -- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." -- Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michele 1 #16 June 1, 2004 Sorry for poking my head in...but I wanted to ask if me, as a non-BASE jumper, and likely never will be, could write a letter? I've seen vids and think it's a most amazing place, and would be willing to support your efforts if you think it would help. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~ Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freakydiver 0 #17 June 1, 2004 I'm a non base jumper, but know many. -- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." -- Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JOY 0 #18 June 2, 2004 I agree with Tom. My brother and I were there the same trip with Tom a couple years ago and it's truly an awsome place. When I was there, I knew that if this phenomenon were in the US, it would be in a National Park and we'd have to sneak in. It is an environmental treasure as it is so unusual. In any attempt to approach the locals, we have to be willing to work with jump times and times of the year to accomodate the birds. The sound of canopies alone may mess with breeding season and the more sensitive we are to these concerns now, the more the locals may trust us with their cave. Rick Harrison USBA[email protected] Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 25 #19 June 9, 2004 Just bumping this. Everyone, BASE jumper, skydiver, or just friend, please write a letter and help us out! Thanks!-- Tom Aiello [email protected] SnakeRiverBASE.com Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
leroydb 0 #20 July 7, 2005 Anyone have any updates in what you are doing or response you have gotten? whats the likelyhood it will open again (I knwo it will be jumped agian, but I mean within my lifetime)Leroy ..I knew I was an unwanted baby when I saw my bath toys were a toaster and a radio... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
droquette 0 #21 October 11, 2006 any news on whats up with the cave?HISPA 72 ----- "Muff Brother" 3733 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MB38 0 #22 October 11, 2006 What sort of postage should one attach to make sure the letter gets there?I really don't know what I'm talking about. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
d_goldsmith 1 #23 October 12, 2006 Good question. What postage do we need to put on it? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
