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Dd0g

BASE without skydives

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I'm pretty sure that there is also a good thread on here about who is and is not a qualified BASE instructor. The pushing of the idea of "straight to BASE" should have any perspective student wondering.



Yikes! Does this mean my pool of eager proto-BASE jumping students is suddenly going to dry up because I am no longer a "qualified" instructor? That sucks, as I am charging people big $$ to teach them BASE. Wait. . . I'm not. It was our dear, dopey friend JJ who pulled that idiotic scam last year.

I'm one of these strange people who puts lots of weight in this thing called "logic." The argument that "everyone should skydive lots before BASE because, um, everyone knows that's the only way to do it and it's best and besides I did it that way so it must be right". . . that argument, it just doesn't cut it with me.

A few folks have put forth substantive points in favor of pre-BASE skydiving. Many other folks have simply echoed the mantra of the herd animal: it's right because everyone else says it's right.

It's funny to see BASE jumpers, who often style themselves as free-thinking and self-reliant, falling back on the herd mentality when the questions get tough.

Ciao,

D-d0g
+~+~+~+~
But this, surely, was the glory that no spirits, canine or human, had ever clearly seen, the light that never was on land or sea, and yet is glimpsed by the quickened mind everywhere.

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I'm one of these strange people who puts lots of weight in this thing called "logic."

Many other folks have simply echoed the mantra of the herd animal: it's right because everyone else says it's right.

It's funny to see BASE jumpers, who often style themselves as free-thinking and self-reliant, falling back on the herd mentality when the questions get tough.



Dude whats the tough question? If its asking what people think about BASE w/o skydives then thats an easy question. I'm going to echo what everyone else is saying is right, ummm, because it IS right. That BASEing w/o prior parachuting experience is much higher of a risk than with parachuting experience. Wow, that was amazingly simple. Does YOUR logic not tell you that?

I've refrained from posting here because you're right, it IS the same stuff over and over... but damn you're a nut and I just had to tell you that.

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aerialkinetics.com

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Its because it is right, period. I'm not sure where this is coming from with you Dog. This isn't even a difficult question. You want something to be different from what it is but no matter how hard your try or for whatever reason you've chose this, you will always be wrong on this.

I'll try an anology, although I know you will have an "answer". Lets say that there is "extreme" bouldering, and that it all occurs 1000' above the ground and any mistake will kill you. Why would anyone attempt to learn the finesse moves, gain the strength, get acclimated to the gear, and otherwise become cofortable with placing their very life on the line for something they have no practical experience with when they can otherwise learn 3' from the ground with a soft mat under them if they don't quite get it right the first few times? This is exactly what you suggest, and although some may make it clearly many would fare much worse.

Why, logically, would one not persue skydiving first other than your (preceived) social issure at the DZ?

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I'll try an anology, although I know you will have an "answer". Lets say that there is "extreme" bouldering, and that it all occurs 1000' above the ground and any mistake will kill you. Why would anyone attempt to learn the finesse moves, gain the strength, get acclimated to the gear, and otherwise become cofortable with placing their very life on the line for something they have no practical experience with when they can otherwise learn 3' from the ground with a soft mat under them if they don't quite get it right the first few times? This is exactly what you suggest, and although some may make it clearly many would fare much worse.



But assuming that someone else packed for you, you could jump a round from a span over water as your first ever parachute jump, and you'd probably be okay. The risk would be minimal. The analogy of "extreme bouldering" therefore doesn't hold, because the situation isn't as black and white as your example suggests.

If you read BASE 311's post, he seems to be saying that it can be done (BASE without skydives), since he's walking talking example.

I applaud D-dog for challenging conventional wisdoms. Ultimately however, each person will make their own decision as to how to prepare for the sport: either by skydiving or not. The discussion is therefore somewhat moot...

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The discussion is therefore somewhat moot...



I disagree. The discussion is far from moot.

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Ultimately however, each person will make their own decision as to how to prepare for the sport: either by skydiving or not.



True. But the majority of those persons will seek advice, or do some kind of research, before making their own decision. What we say here may effect one, or more, of them.

Further, those persons will possibly receive instruction from a more experienced BASE jumper. What that more experienced jumper thinks, and does, may be effected by our discussion here.
-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

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If you read BASE 311's post, he seems to be saying that it can be done (BASE without skydives), since he's walking talking example.



Well of course it can be done, we all know that. Is it the wisest, safest route? Come on now, I think we all know better than that... ignorance is beyond me in this situation.

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aerialkinetics.com

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Come on now, I think we all know better than that..



In my life, I've noticed that most of the time that "everybody knows" something, it turns out not to be the case.

In all seriousness. I don't think that massively greater canopy flight time is going to make as much difference as everyone automatically assumes.

For example, I have learned more, per jump, about wingsuit flight, on BASE jumps than on skydives. I think this is because the frame of reference is better for seeing what is going on in terms of absolute flight (as opposed to relative flight).

For the record, I believe that someone who makes 50 directed "BASE training" skydives (like say, DdOg, who had the advantage of coaching toward BASE from the beginning) is 85% of the time going to be better prepared than someone who just runs out and makes any 200 skydives (like me) to prepare for BASE.

I think that Clint's BASE oriented skydiving training program is a major step forward for BASE education. I wonder if there oughtn't be a skydiving "training" segment to every FJC?
-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

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And we know what happend on that wingsuit jump. (sound of rock dropping stright down) :P

Everyone does agree that it can be done and 311 is living proof. He also says that its not the smartest way to do it and does not reccomend it. Of all the people to support this idea I am surprised at you Tom. You've advocated the minimum jumps and proficiencies and FJC for years. This wouldn't have anyhting to do with a move to the potato state and a certain new BASE school, would it? (just kidding, but it sounded good). :o

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>Well of course it can be done, we all know that. Is it the wisest, safest route? Come on now, I think we all know better than that... ignorance is beyond me in this situation
Here are my toughts about the argument "BASE training without skydives".
Yes, it can be done "safely" but with the following "if's" ALL fullfilled.
1) If you have a very experienced BASE instructor/mentor very, very capable of teaching
2) If you do a lot of training on a "fixed" harness (it is not so natural to go for your toggles and flying the canopy)
3) If a lot of theoretical classes are held with lots of videos watched and commented
4) If all the BASE pack jobs in the training process are done by mentor with student carefully looking
5) If a lot (=hundereds and hundreds) of dead air exits are performed, in a pool, onto a mattress, but much better with other suitable means (=pendulator or very similar tool)
6) If you have easily available (NOT to travel hours each time) an EASY and HIGH (from BASE point of view) object, I mean, a single span BRIDGE so that you cannot hit anything while flying, with at least a very large meadows underneath where to land on, from which object with PCA jumps the student can fly 30"-45"-60" and learn how to fly a BASE canopy "safely"; it is obvious that in this process the student must wear helmet, knee pads, elbow pads/whatever else protection is possible
7) If the above point 6) has got also a river/lake underneath as possible getaway/alternate landing area (better than only the meadow); in which case (=presence of water) a boat must be available at any time
8) If the instructor/mentor AND student has got lot of spare time to teach and to be taught
9) If you can do all the training from the above EASY single span BRIDGE for at least 40-50-60 jumps (first 10-20-30 of which are done by PCA)
So, if ALL the previous points are fulfilled, yes, I think that "BASE training without skydives" can be carried out "safely".
But, for sure, the above "BASE training without skydives" would be very, very time consuming, in terms of BASE pack jobs, time spent by both people involved, journeys to and from the BRIDGE.
Finally, if the above easy OBJECT (=single span BRIDGE) is not available within less one hour drive, the "BASE training without skydives" remains only theoretical and NOT feasible, mainly because of the enormous quantity of time needed to carry on the whole program.
Forget any "BASE training without skydives" if you haven't got ANY easy (see above) object available... B| : in this case, let's stick to the 150-200-250 skydives first and then BASE training
Just my 0.02€
P.S.: the above holds true only for training in BASE jumping where no long freefall (BASE jumps with slider up where terminal walls are jumped) is involved. If in case this "BASE training without skydives" has success, I think there is no other way other than skydiving to gain a good stability in freefall in box position, plus gaining good ability in tracking... B| , skills that are obviously MANDATORY for jumping terminal walls/objects
Stay safe out there
Blue Skies and Soft Walls
BASE #689 - base_689AT_NO_123_SPAMyahoo.com

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Not a direct reply to Treejumps, but thought it was worth throwing in here...

Again, I'm just a baby, maybe even still a fetus in BASE, but It surprises me that no one has even mentioned the fact that unless your jumping a 2 parachute system, that all that emergency training from skydiving, it goes right out the window with BASE. I'd hate to think that one day all my gut reatcion from skydiving would cause me to look up at a lineover and cut away rather than just popping my WLO toggles and landing with my rear risers...

There is a whole new set of emergency procedure within the world of BASE jumping, that has nothing to do with skydiving, and vice versa.

I'm neutral on the idea of "Do you have to skydive first". I don't have enough experience to make that call yet, but I thought this was worth some discussion.

Ganja

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>>I'm surprised as well. What about delay's? I'd hate to over delay and blow a colon :P



Remember that in this hypothetical example, we are talking about PCA's. Overdelaying a PCA will be very challenging for even the most gifted primate.

But, what exactly does skydiving teach you about delay timing? On a skydive, you look at an altimeter. This has nothing to do with delay or pull altitude determination in the BASE environment. Everyone, regardless of their skydiving experience (absent some old school skydivers who really did pull at BASE like altitudes back in the day) is going to have to learn BASE delays from the same starting point (i.e. no relevant experience at all). The only people I can think of who _might_ have an advantage are hard core bungee jumeprs, who have experience judging things like sandbag releases.
-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

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Of all the people to support this idea I am surprised at you Tom.



Mostly, I started this discussion because of an email that I've seen passed around the internet. In it, a relatively low experienced BASE jumper, who learned without ever making a skydive, declares his intention to start a "BASE School" for non-skydivers (specifically, college students). I've inquired about whether this is a joke (surely, I thought, it must be), but received no response at all to my repeated inquries. That makes me think that we're going to see this kind of thing sooner, rather than later. It also makes me think we're going to see it from "instructors" with no skydives, and relatively little BASE experience.

So, I'm interested in this discussion for two reasons:

1) To get as many people as possible to provide illustrations of why they think this is a bad idea (so that hopefully some prospective students will read and think about at least some of these arguments), and;

2) To talk about what the safest way to conduct such a course would be, so that any potential "instructors" will at least try to do so in the safest possible manner (for example, PCAing a round over water, rather than putting their students off for a hand held 2 second delay).

So, another question for you: If you saw someone actually giving a first jump course like that described above, what would you do?
-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

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And we know what happened on that wingsuit jump. (sound of rock dropping stright down) :P



Sure. But that had happened on dozens of skydives before that. And on the skydives I had no idea what was happening, and couldn't tell what worked and what didn't, so I couldn't work on it. On the BASE jump. I could see, and correct, and get instant feedback to my changes in body position.
-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

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For example, I have learned more, per jump, about wingsuit flight, on BASE jumps than on skydives. I think this is because the frame of reference is better for seeing what is going on in terms of absolute flight (as opposed to relative flight).


I am really enjoying this discussion but I'd just like some clarification on this if you could. Does this mean after you've figured out how to fly the suit in a stable manner? I would agree that your statement is true once you know how to fly the suit, but it took me a few skydives on a wingsuit (GTi) figuring out a body position for the ability to fly solidly (without potato-chipping a bit) and mess around with turns. I would think that that would have taken who knows how many (especially since I don't have any) BASE jumps to figure out just because of the time in the air flying the suit. Maybe I'm just thinking of actual freefall time in the suit correlating with better flying skills in the beginning of learning to fly one. Could you expand? Thanks...

I think when Jesus said "love your enemy" he probably meant don't kill them.

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I'm definitely not advocating learning to fly a wingsuit off a cliff. It's a freefall dependent skill that _really_ needs to be learned out of a plane.

I made my first BASE wingsuit flight after about 150 wingsuit skydives.

The thing is, I _suck_ at wingsuit flight. Out of an airplane, it was really hard to tell how bad I sucked, or what was going on. And unfortunately, I was making those jumps at a DZ where every other wingsuit flyer was working all day, so I'd get maybe one jump with other people for every ten solo jumps. Without a frame of reference, I had no idea what was happening on the skydives. But on a BASE jump, I had an instant frame of reference, and that made a lot of difference.

This is one of the big reasons that CRW, for example is far more valuable canopy training than just doing solo canopy drill dives. The other canopies around you give you a frame of reference. Still, since they are moving, you will probably learn more with a stationary referent.
-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

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>For example, I have learned more, per jump, about wingsuit flight, on BASE jumps than on skydives. I think this is because the frame of reference is better for seeing what is going on in terms of absolute flight (as opposed to relative flight).

Question is: Did you do your first Birdman flight on a BASE jump or from an airplane? I would NEVER jump a Birdman for the first time in Norway. Would anyone else like to this? IF so, you got some balls!
And I do agree that you get a better frame of refrence.

>I'm definitely not advocating learning to fly a wingsuit off a cliff. It's a freefall dependent skill that _really_ needs to be learned out of a plane.
>I made my first BASE wingsuit flight after about 150 wingsuit skydives.

You can still do this off a cliff for the first time with no birdman experience. YOu don't HAVE TO jump out of the plane. It's just tracking! RIght?

IT is EXACTLY THE SAME THING. YOU CAN TAKE YOUR CHANCES BUT............. SAME THING, IT'S STUPID!!

If someone wants to start BASE jumping with No skydives, that is his desicion, Plain and simple.
Good luck! It's your life!! There is a much easier way and there is a stupid way. As people said before and like 311, it can be done but why would you take that risk? Go do 1 tandem or 1 aff or 1 static line.

Then you will be much better equiped to start BASE jumping. At least you will know what the feeling is like to be under canopy.

Doing your first BASE jump is wicked powerful and overwhelming and then you have to fly a canopy for the first time and land in maybe that open field or land on the beach and flare at the right height.
All that on your first jump! That is alot for people with a 1000 skydives.

I think that we are all taking it for granted, for us experienced jumpers. Remember when you made your first skydive, how scared you were, most people anyway! Remember how scared you were on your first BASE jump! Try combining them together.

Anyway, If Ddog want to take people out on their 1st BASE jump with NO skydiving experience, that is his and his students CHOICE/LIFE. He has to live with himself for the rest of his life and if something goes wrong.....
WOW, I couldn't do that and most people couldn't do that. THat is why no one is doing that. 98% wouldn't want that responsibility.

Like Tree said THAT IS WRONG!!!


I hope nothing happens to your students!
Clint MacBeth
Skydive Moab 435 259 JUMP
M.O.A.B. Mother Of All Boogies Sept 19 - 23, 2012

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