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BASE without skydives

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Remember when you made your first skydive, how scared you were, most people anyway! Remember how scared you were on your first BASE jump! Try combining them together.



I don't think it would work that way. As someone earlier in this thread mentioned, doing your first BASE jump is often so dramatic _because_ you have the perspective of skydiving. Without that perspective (both in terms of altitude and in terms of culture) I tend to think that a first BASE jump would actually be a bit less scary, depending on the individual.
-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

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Question is: Did you do your first Birdman flight on a BASE jump or from an airplane? I would NEVER jump a Birdman for the first time in Norway. Would anyone else like to this? IF so, you got some balls!



Answer is: a few posts above this.

But I do know some folks who did that. I think they're nuts. But they probably think I'm nuts, too.
-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

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MAYBE and Maybe not. I agree with you though about the perspective.

I didn't make it that post I had to write a reply then.
But still it's the same things. It's nuts.
But it can be done.
Clint MacBeth
Skydive Moab 435 259 JUMP
M.O.A.B. Mother Of All Boogies Sept 19 - 23, 2012

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... I've inquired about whether this is a joke (surely, I thought, it must be), but received no response at all to my repeated inquries.



I have his phone number if you want it.
My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

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Thank you for expanding on what I was trying to say. Lol, just didn't have the time to write it all out in format as you did. Again all I was emphasizing was yes, it CAN be done, and in a relatively safe manner... however seemingly impractical and once again, still IMO not the wisEST choice.

And Tom, thanks for clarifying. You're right, I didn't mean to assume that everyone should know something. Thats why this discussion is here. I was assuming however, that experienced base jumpers should know smart decisions from rather dumb ones when it comes to first timers.

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aerialkinetics.com

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>>Glad to see you're doing this to raise awareness; no more jokes from me. When doing hop 'n pops to shoot accuracy, I was taught not to look at the alti and just count instead, starting off with 2 sec's and taking progressively longer delay's up to 5's, to get a "feel" for what each delay feels like. On terminal jumps, I agree there is no advantage gained.

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Interesting debate. Should people have previous skydiving experience or not. I think they should, I've seen too many skydiving students get hurt due to poor canopy control than due to anything else and they had radios and all day classes and everything under the sun to help them. Some people are good canopy pilots and take to it easily while others never seem to get the grasp of it. Like driving a car, some drivers are good and some suck. A large open grassy landing area is the place to find out if someone can handle a canopy or not. A river bank loaded with rocks or trees isn't the place. Some people you can throw into the river and they'll learn to swim, others will simply drown. I am not capable of accurately judging someone's mental capacities to handle high stress situations to the degree necessary to feel comfortable to toss them off a object with just a idea in their head of how to fly a canopy. Of course there are people that can do it, nothing is impossible, only inprobable. We all know people at the DZ that we think that they shouldn't be skydiving. Based on watching them jump and watching their canopy skills, we can make a decision to help them get into this sport or to stay away from them. We have the advantage of having them being observed in a somewhat controlled enviroment. To teach them without this prior foundation of skills and knowdledge, is to simply trust to our own worth as a teacher and their ability to understand and apply the information. This is a HUGE risk IMHO. It can be done, but offers no real advantage over the older more accepted style of learning the sport. The Skydiving/BASE structured course is the best way by far. Not learning RW,or freeflying, but simple tracking and stabilty skills combined with canopy skill dives on large 7 cells(no racing to downsize to small zp canopies) will produce someone ready for the challenges of BASE. At the same time, they wil be experiencing and learning to skydive. It alone is worth the money. Base can also be learmed without mentors. Me and a friend did it. We had previous skydiving experience though, combined with the manufactors packing video. Is is better to have a mentor? Yes if they are wise and excellent teachers. Not all of us make good teachers even though we may be well versed in the subject. It also stands then, that a excellent teacher may not be smart in their field. Would they be accceptable as mentors? Or can a individual gleam enough knowledge from out of the air to proceed and be successful? It has and can be done but that doesn't make it the "best method" The fact that someone who learned to BASE without skydives, says it is a inferior way should be takin to heart by all. The voice of experience has more weight than the voice of "Theory"

just my 2cents
Mike



May we live long and die out

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http://dropzone.com/columns/GettingIntoBASE.shtml

I don't know how to do the "clicky" thing.

I just went to "Getting into BASE" and I found this interesting.


This article was written entirely by Tom Aiello, BASE 579. Tom has made over 500 BASE jumps in the past 30 months, from more than 100 objects. He is not an authority or expert of any kind on BASE jumping or any other type of parachuting, so all his advice should be taken with a grain of salt.

As I understand Tom wrote this:

Make the Skydives

First, make at least 200 skydives. You need to make these skydives in order to practice accuracy, tracking and canopy control skills. You also need to establish a general comfort level with parachutes, free fall, and split second decisions. The skydivers who are best prepared for BASE generally jump large, 7 cell, F-111 canopies, have had a number of malfunctions and responded correctly, and are comfortable with multiple skydiving disciplines. If your only focus is BASE jumping, don't succumb to the temptation to become canopy swooping freeflyer. Instead, focus on CRW and Accuracy as your skydiving disciplines.

To practice tracking make entire skydives in max track. Don't count on the limited tracking on break off, or on the balanced tracking of a tracking jump. Make the whole dive tracking as hard as you can, with camera and coaching if possible, and work on getting the most lift, and the most drive out of your track.

For accuracy practice, it's best to use the canopy that you intend to BASE jump with. Try to set up low (under 500 feet), to simulate the BASE environment. Don't forget to make approaches cross- and down-wind as well, since you will often have to do this while BASE jumping.

For canopy practice, you should make some CRW jumps (on a CRW canopy) and then do some canopy drills on your intended BASE canopy. CRW is a great way to learn canopy flight characteristics in tight spaces before you get into the BASE environment (and CRW with your BASE canopy is an excellent drill-after you've learned some CRW skills).

Be sure you've made several night jumps during your skydiving career. In many places, BASE jumps are made almost exclusively at night (to avoid arrest, incarceration, and gear confiscation), and comfort with flying and landing your canopy at night is essential to survive these jumps.

Make some jumps on your BASE canopy to learn its performance envelope. Pay particular attention to riser input, practicing riser turns and riser flares. Make sure you practice your riser turns before popping your toggles-that's the way you'll have to do it to avoid smacking the side of a cliff one day. Obviously, you'll want to practice them after grabbing the toggles, as well.

I believe that all the info that he wrote down is correct. I think if everyone did this to get into BASE, they would have the knowledge to stay safe.

Long story short. He says, "First, make at least 200 skydives.

That pretty much says it all.

I hope you don't mind Tom that I quoted you but it makes sense.
Clint MacBeth
Skydive Moab 435 259 JUMP
M.O.A.B. Mother Of All Boogies Sept 19 - 23, 2012

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On a skydive, you look at an altimeter. This has nothing to do with delay or pull altitude determination in the BASE environment.



I disagree to an extent:
Skydiving doesn't necessarily involve much in the way of very short delays, but they are there to be had and experienced. Particularly if one goes through the old school static line training.

Hop and pops. Clear and pulls. Go and throws.
Whatever.
You have a ritualized exit count, whether it's "ready, set, go" or "3,2,1, C-ya", and a very brief delay, i.e: "arch one thousand, look one thousand, pull." or something similar.
Quality skydiving intruction includes emphasis on trusting your eyes, your inner time clock, and NOT relying on an altimeter.

A clear and pull from 2000' is still different from a go and throw from 250', but the mental rehearsal is similar.

Maybe AFF grads miss out on that?;)
-Josh
If you have time to panic, you have time to do something more productive. -Me*
*Ron has accused me of plagiarizing this quote. He attributes it to Douglas Adams.

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Spoken like someone who comes from a turbine dz... Here in Canada there are still an awful lot of dz's where people progress through IAD/SL to hop'n'pops, 5sec delays (counted) to 10 sec Delays (counted)... Not everyone is progressing through tandem and aff...
If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

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Doesn't a Protrac give you some sort of a frame of reference, ie rate of descent and time in freefall? Maybe a GPS to give horizontal movement?
If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

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I believe climbers could easily transition to BASE without skydiving because they are" pre-conditioned "so to speak to an irrational potentially hostile enviroment. In my opinion, skydiving before BASE is ideal because of this conditioning. My first skydive in 1985 was significantly more horrific than my first basejump, and it set the stage for being comfortable(relatively) for BASE when that day came...28 jumps later. It's all in the mindset and that is highly individual.
BASE386
Hey Jimmy in Cincy, call me... Weather's gettin better, hibernation is about over. Come on down for some "greener" pastures and ice cold ones.
[email protected]

D-Dog, good to meet you out at Dwain's mem in L.A.. You're fuckin crazy, but that's relative, and admirable in my world. I think you've got a valid point, but only a rare clientele are eligible.

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Maybe AFF grads miss out on that?;)



I don't know. I did static line.

I still don't feel like the static line course gave much in the way of delay training. No one ever looked at the delay, or watched the video to see if I was doing the correct delays. I had a look at it last year, and noticed that all of my delays seemed wrong. On the early delays, they were way too short (my 5 second delay was more like 2 seconds) and on the later ones, way too long. My point is that the delay itself was never really part of the feedback my instructors gave. I wouldn't doubt that my instruction was sub-standard, but it's the only experience I have to work from.
-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

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Doesn't a Protrac give you some sort of a frame of reference, ie rate of descent and time in freefall? Maybe a GPS to give horizontal movement?



I skydive with a Protrac, whenever I skydive. I often use a GPS skydiving (with a wingsuit) as well.

I'd imagine a Protrac would be a fairly valuable tool to practice delay, if you used it to clock very short delays. Does anyone have experience using one for that?
-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

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I'd imagine a Protrac would be a fairly valuable tool to practice delay, if you used it to clock very short delays. Does anyone have experience using one for that?



I think Protracs don't clock the first several seconds of freefall (7-15 or something)... it's in the manual. I figured this out when I noticed that my average speed, distance traveled, and time spent in freefall didn't compute for my jumps.
www.WingsuitPhotos.com

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Doesn't a Protrac give you some sort of a frame of reference, ie rate of descent and time in freefall? Maybe a GPS to give horizontal movement?



I skydive with a Protrac, whenever I skydive. I often use a GPS skydiving (with a wingsuit) as well.

I'd imagine a Protrac would be a fairly valuable tool to practice delay, if you used it to clock very short delays. Does anyone have experience using one for that?



I was meaning doesn't the Protrac give you an idea of the effectiveness of your wingsuit jumps, not your short delays... If you know what a good wingsuit jumper does, you can gauge your rates of descent and forward drive based on what your protrac is telling you...
If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

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Anyway, If Ddog want to take people out on their 1st BASE jump with NO skydiving experience, that is his and his students CHOICE/LIFE. He has to live with himself for the rest of his life and if something goes wrong.....
WOW, I couldn't do that and most people couldn't do that. THat is why no one is doing that. 98% wouldn't want that responsibility.

Like Tree said THAT IS WRONG!!!

I hope nothing happens to your students!



I'm chuckling at this as, in my mind, I go down the list of famous BASE folks who have throw non-skydivers off objects in the past 10 years. It's a pretty long list; I'm just a footnote.

Personally, the most positive thing I've seen recently come into BASE training (other than the prevalence of the FJC nowadays) is the proposed BASE-specific skydiving course you are putting together, Clint. This makes enormous sense and is long overdue. Some folks (like me) were fortunate in that we found skydiving coaches who tailored our DZ jumps from day one to BASE, but that was not easy to accomplish at most DZs.

When I think of all of the absolutely, stunningly, shockingly stupid things that I've seen or heard firsthand done with low-time/newbie BASE folks by "instructors" over the years, this whole "how many skydives" discussion really comes into proper focus. The funny thing is that few folks discuss these reckless student moments; they are the unspoken secret of BASE, and for better or for worse most folks fairly new to the sport have never heard these stories. Fact is, many of these stories have gone to the grave with Dwain and Nik and Lukas and others in recent years.

BASE isn't black and white, and it is good for the newer generations of jumpers (including me) to hear the real-deal stories from the past to understand the real boundaries of safety and what happens when these boundaries are pushed. Teaching folks to jump is a massive committment and I doubt that anyone who has not done so personally is really qualified to comment on it, at least from a moral/ethical standpoint.

Tree, I appreciate your metaphor regarding bouldering but I think you and I are just seeing this whole issue from different perspectives.

Regards,

D-d0g
+~+~+~+~
But this, surely, was the glory that no spirits, canine or human, had ever clearly seen, the light that never was on land or sea, and yet is glimpsed by the quickened mind everywhere.

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D-Dog, good to meet you out at Dwain's mem in L.A.. You're fuckin crazy, but that's relative, and admirable in my world. I think you've got a valid point, but only a rare clientele are eligible.



Having 386 call me "fucking crazy" has not only made my day, it has made my entire fucking year! We're working on a project to jump a really big cliff in a really big mountain range, that's the latest crazy plan and I think it just might work. "It's got good idea written all over it."

Hope you are well down there. I'm looking forward to hanging out again soon, hopefully under less "complicated" circumstances. Remember the Pact from Starbucks, however; it is still in effect.

Peace,

D-d0g
+~+~+~+~
But this, surely, was the glory that no spirits, canine or human, had ever clearly seen, the light that never was on land or sea, and yet is glimpsed by the quickened mind everywhere.

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Well of course it can be done, we all know that. Is it the wisest, safest route? Come on now, I think we all know better than that... ignorance is beyond me in this situation
Here are my toughts about the argument "BASE training without skydives".
Yes, it can be done "safely" but with the following "if's" ALL fullfilled...



Quite a long list, eh? ;)

As a "wannabe" - yes, I know (but I've already embarked on a route that may take a couple of years or more) - this is how I see it:

BASE requires a lot of thought and commitment before embarking on a route to doing it. Everyone is different.

I think the "anti-skydiving" sentiment comes from skydivers' sentiments/approach - consider their starting point! The advantage anyone with skydiving experience has is a certain familiarity to jumping that you can't get elsewhere. Sure, someone who has 150 and lots of CReW jumps is going to be better prepared than someone who has 700 skydives of which the majority have been head-down and piloting a heavily loaded swooping canopy. :)
My starting point was hang gliding and climbing, and I'm building up the necessary experience (OK, I'll clarify that - what I consider "necessary") in order to feel comfortable with going out and doing a BASE jump.

Maybe if a BASE aspirant had gone through the list on my "reply to" post (which almost defeats the point of not skydiving - but that may have been the intention ;)) then they would be fairly well equipped without being "corrupted" by the skydiving world (which I don't believe - people corrupt themselves.)

Personally, I believe that skydiving should come first - BASE looks like a big commitment to me and shouldn't be taken lightly - skydiving gives someone the opportunity to really decide that BASE is what they want to do.

So, doesn't this argument just boil down to doing it for the right reasons? How you get there is less important, surely?

Just my thoughts (but I know nothing...)
--
BASE #1182
Muff #3573
PFI #52; UK WSI #13

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Sure jumping out of an airplane at 13 thousand feet isn't dangerous at all. Very funny to compare skydiving being a pastime?
It's a lifestyle.
People die in skydiving for different reasons than in Base Jumping. I don't think one is safer than the other, except for the fact that skydivers have time to use their reserves. Other than that, skydiving is every bit as dangerous as BASE. It is like comparing apples and oranges!

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Other than that, skydiving is every bit as dangerous as BASE



The simple reply would be ... that is not true. You are wrong. Many things are arguable, but that's not one of them.

I won't try and explain it. I do both. One for nearly 14 years, and the other for over 2. I can understand why you would think that, but that statement is incorrect.

Tim


My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

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Other than that, skydiving is every bit as dangerous as BASE.



I would gauge this by the margin of error available to the participant. BASE has a much smaller margin for error than skydiving. The risks involved are clearly higher in BASE. Yes people die skydiving and yes it’s a dangerous sport. But in comparison the risks and margin for error obviously differ. Firstly look at the environment, in BASE you are freefalling at altitudes very close to the ground and or close to a solid object of rock, metal, glass, wires, etc etc - hesitations and miscalculations of time in small amounts can result in serious injury or death, a miscalculation of 1 second is nothing in skydiving, it could be life or death in BASE – Kit requirements differ for each jump, yes this is true in skydiving but not to the fine detail it is in BASE where opening time / distance may be crucial…. An extra 60ft opening in BASE could be deadly in skydiving this does not matter. People always retort with “what about swooping? The margin for error is small” – this is true, but in itself it a specialised area of skydiving that takes time to master and build up skills to practice safely. This is a more dangerous facet of skydiving - but there are also other more dangerous facets of BASE.

This is a simplised view on a few of the many many differences as I see them – I can’t be arsed to write anymore! But for a skydiver to say skydiving is just as dangerous as BASE is ignorant.

As Hookitt suggested – you wait until you are stood alone at night with your toes over the edge of a low solid object – then you come back and tell us that you think skydiving is just as risky.

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I basically agree with Scott Jaco.

BASE is pasttime as it may be life, as any other things... (Motorcycle, Mountaineering, Playing Golf, ...)

What does make things dangerous for us??

I try explain what is my point of view:

1. Risk-management:
By doing something, you agree to a certain risk. The risk is the interaction between what you are doing (activity) and how you are doing it (yourself).

2. Natural instincts
Since we are born, we get a certain Self-Protecting instinct. The Self-protecting instinct we have gets smaller by rules and other artificially protected things in our lifes.

3. Destiny, bad luck, etc... (No need to elaborate).


To put alltogether:
In Skydiving, the Natural instinct is less required, since the rules are supposed to ensure security, to take care of that. The how we do it part of risk-management is just following that rules. In less organized activities (Clibing, Mountaineering, Skiing, and BASE) we need this instinct to do this in safety.

So for me it all depends on how you make the things. I know of people who in BASE take less risks than a lot take in Skydive. I know of some skiers, which take more risks than the most people I know in BASE. I could state more examples and I think I am not the only one...

"So it all depends"

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Sure jumping out of an airplane at 13 thousand feet isn't dangerous at all. Very funny to compare skydiving being a pastime?
It's a lifestyle.
People die in skydiving for different reasons than in Base Jumping. I don't think one is safer than the other, except for the fact that skydivers have time to use their reserves. Other than that, skydiving is every bit as dangerous as BASE. It is like comparing apples and oranges!



I see what you are saying. Dying is dying. That is the danger in either sport.
What's the difference between dying skydiving and BASE jumping?
Well, probably only the number of witnesses you had.
Think binomial distribution. There are two outcomes. Life or death. Injury? Well, that would fall in the LIFE category. Paralysis? Still alive, so in the LIFE category again.
It's like a logic gate. It's either a 1 or a 0.

Either I have a beer (1) or I don't (0). And right now, it is 0.
So I am off to get another. Yes, at 4:36am CST.



Thomas

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So for me it all depends on how you make the things. I know of people who in BASE take less risks than a lot take in Skydive. I know of some skiers, which take more risks than the most people I know in BASE.



I believe there is a certain component of "unavoidable" risk in any activity. A rock climber cannot always avoid rockfall, a skydiver cannot always avoid airplane crashes, a BASE jumper cannot always avoid 180's. Some things are simply inherent dangers of the sport, which all participants, even the most cautious, will inevitably face.

In my opinion, the "unavoidable" risks of BASE (i.e. the risks you must take to participate in BASE jumping) are significantly greater than the "unavoidable" risks of skydiving.
-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

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