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andy2

open corners

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I know its a good idea to have open corners for WS base rigs, but if you plan to make a lot of BASE jumps where you will be opening in a max track do you think its a good idea to look into open corners? That said, is it a good idea to open in a max track at all, in your opinion?

Thanks!

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let my inspiration flow,
in token rhyme suggesting rhythm...

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The first open cornered rig I owned was a Vision. Morpheus' Dynamic Corners are, in my opinion, a significant improvement on the open corner concept.

Open (or better, Dynamic) corners are a good idea on all BASE jumps--tracking, wingsuit, or just flat and stable. I know several jumpers who blame closed corners for off-headings and accidents. While I do not believe this to be true, why take chances, especially when the Dynamic Corner offers the best of both worlds (a tightly closed wrap around corner, and a wide open container opening)?

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...if you plan to make a lot of BASE jumps where you will be opening in a max track do you think its a good idea to look into open corners?



Yes.

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That said, is it a good idea to open in a max track at all, in your opinion?



Yes.

Opening with good forward speed (and good balanced track) should yield a better heading rate and an opening which uses fewer vertical feet (because it is taking place on a diagonal, rather than a straight line).

Learning to dump directly out of a track will allow you to squeeze the last few moments out of your track, when you are moving the fastest, and therefore likely getting the best track. More separation is always a good thing, and sometimes it's a life saving thing.
-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

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thanks Tom for the quick, informative reply!

one more question...

Do most manufacturers offer retrofits to the containers they produce to make them open corners? Is this something I can have a local rigger do or am I best off contacting the manufacturer and having them do this?

Thanks!

---------------------------------------------
let my inspiration flow,
in token rhyme suggesting rhythm...

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Faber sent same question to Blinc some time ago, but nobody replied



It were specifik at Vertex (BR 2 pin rig), i never got any answer at all, i guess its most common to buy a rig whith that mod or to simply send it to the manufactor who then can make it(i think)

Stay safe
Stefan Faber

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Do most manufacturers offer retrofits to the containers they produce to make them open corners?



Not at all. As far as I know Morpheus is the only BASE gear manufacturer that offers an open corner option on all their rigs. Some specific rigs (Vision, Merlin) have open corners, and the wingsuit rigs under development by others probably have some kind of open corner system.

Morpheus has retrofit some other containers, but I'm not sure what their policy on this is.

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Is this something I can have a local rigger do or am I best off contacting the manufacturer and having them do this?



I have had my retrofits done by (a) Morpheus, and (b) two different skydiving riggers. The skydiving riggers were using dynamic corner inserts I had purchased from Morpheus, and either copying from other rigs of mine or contacting Morpheus for help/directions.

One word of caution. Some rigs will require additional work to make a retrofit of some kind of open corner (the Prism is like this) because of the tension direction and container cut.
-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

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Can Vertigo's new Merlin container be used without a wingsuit and for low objects? (300 to 200 foot range)?
www.motavi.com

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> Some rigs will require additional work to make a retrofit of some kind of open corner (the Prism is like this) because of the tension direction and container cut
A LONG TIME AGO you promised to send me few picture about the dynamic corner mod you got on your Prism, but still I am not seeing any photo at all... :(
Seriously, as soon as you will have some spare time to take a couple of picture of your "open-corner" Prism opend and closed (plus any other picture that can help understand how the mod must/can be made)
Ciao from your friend from South Europe
Stay safe out there
Blue Skies and Soft Walls
BASE #689 - base_689AT_NO_123_SPAMyahoo.com

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Here are some corner ideas that we have been working with. I looked at several different configurations and then worked to over come some of the cosmetic issues that I saw with the other designs from other manufactures. Other rigs that I saw with dynamic corners seem to very suseptable to a poor looking bottom corners as a result of the dynamic corners. I think that this configuration over comes that problem very well while at the same time works great.
Editied because my pics ar too large to up load. I figure it out and get to later. Sorry for the tease
Kevin
I have put 35 jumps on this configuration and so far they have worked great. I'd be very interested in feed back about this design from those who have lots of wing suit BASE jumps

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Checked out your website and saw the "slit" into which the corner fits, nice design. Just one comment, with the original design being developed by Morpheus, I think credit should be given to the originator of the concept especially if you're going to refer to it as "dynamic corners".

See: http://www.baserigs.com/gargoyle.html

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You are correct. Morpheus does deserve some credit here. I had not heard of dynamic corners before their development of it. I did not intend to imply that we had invented this, but rather that we have expanded on it.

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Consider doing a wrap around corner that hides the dynamic corner insert. I've had trouble with unprotected dynamic corners catching air (in sit fly on a skydiving rig) as well as the mesh of my vented PC (a much bigger worry for me).

I personally think that a Perigee/Mirage wrap around style corner with a dynamic opening would be a great solution (Morpheus is already most of the way there, as they have a wrap around on their Gargoyles--I'm not sure about their other rigs).
-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

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...still needing to see what are you dynamic corners mod on your Prism, Tom!!!
I perfectly understand any issue of wrap around corner in 2 pin rigs, where the side flap are closed over the bottom flap and so it is preatty easy to manufacture a wrap around corner to hide the dynamic corner itself, wrap around cloth laying on the bottom of container and so NOT catching air.
In case of Prism, where instead first you close onto themselves the side flaps and THEN you close the bottom flap OVER the side flaps, I hardly imagine how you succeed in doing a wrap around sort of stuff, granted that side flaps are UNDER bottom flap. And if the bottom flap is the one that incorporates the wrap around sort of stuff, in such a case, this wrap around sort of stuff would very likely to catch air, because to wrap around the corner starting from bottom flap it must go towards up over and along the side flaps, good way to catch air.
So, unless I see a couple of pictures of your Prism set up, I hardly imagine how you managed to do dynamic corners on Prism's...
Also, the idea of sliding "stiff part" of dynamic corner implemented by Bombproof Rigging is a very good idea indeed, but, again, it seems to work properly only either on velcro rigs or on 2 pin rigs, doesn't look like working well on a 1 pin rig.
...I need pictures... :(
Thanks so much in advance ;)
Stay safe out there
Blue Skies and Soft Walls
BASE #689 - base_689AT_NO_123_SPAMyahoo.com

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I thought the same thing about the wrap around dynamic corner idea as BASE# 689. It seems to me that a wrap around corner would defeat the purpose of container that is designed to open completly flat and have zero obstructions for the canopy to hang up on. But that being said perhaps that idea is one that should be concidered a bit more.
We have scheduled terminal tests on our corner designs for later this week. We will be paying special close attention to the inflation issue Tom mentioned. We are confident that our design will not inflate but I suppose that remains to be seen. More on this later.
Kevin

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Quote

...
it seems to work properly only either on velcro rigs or on 2 pin rigs



Open or dynamic corners on a Velcro rig is a very bad idea. It was realized very early in the development of Velcro rigs that the bottom flap needs to be stitched to the side flap for the height of the BOC pocket.

The Velcro tab joining the shrivel flap to the bottom flap isn't very secure and can easily come undone if the Velcro is worn or if the rig is squeezed in certain ways (for example when launching into an aerial). If this Velcro tab comes undone with open/dynamic corners then the entire bottom flap can move which will change the location of the p/c.

The following scenario (or something similar) is very likely to occur if a large number of Velcro rigs with dynamic/open corners are released to the market:

Container/Velcro has 80 jumps on it. Pack job results in a little more bulk than normal in the bottom of the container. Jumper executes a double gainer from a 400' object. As the jumper launches into the first gainer the bottom flap detaches from the shrivel flap, moving the position of the p/c. The jumper reaches into pull, flounders for the p/c and ends up grabbing the bottom flap instead. Jumper is unable to extract the p/c before impact.

Imagine trying to grab the p/c in the attached photo if the rig was in this configuration on your back while you were in freefall.

This risk also exists with pin rigs and dynamic/open corners, but to a much lesser extent. With dynamic/open corners you need to be even more careful about pin tension on the bottom pin. Not enough tension can potentially be just as deadly as too much tension.

It's rare that there is a pure win-win situation when you add technology to BASE equipment. When you invent something to solve one problem, it is easy to inadvertently create a bunch of entirely new problems.

Personally I am a supporter of open/dynamic corners in pin BASE rigs, but people who use this technology need to be aware of the additional dangers they pose as well.

A total malfunction is always far worse than an offheading.

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For me, the most worrisome thing is the potential for the mesh on the crown of a vented pilot chute to hang up on the dynamic corner.
-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

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Just looking for clarifacation. By your statement I gather that you mean that the corner may inflate and the P/C Apex vent then may become lodged in the now inflated Corner. Is this correct?

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Please, Tom, please please please... :S :S :S
...few pictures of dynamic corners mod on your Prism... :S :S :S
Please, Tom, please please please... :S :S :S
Thanks B| B| B|
Stay safe out there
Blue Skies and Soft Walls
BASE #689 - base_689AT_NO_123_SPAMyahoo.com

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> Open or dynamic corners on a Velcro rig is a very bad idea.
Yes, I agree with you. I read all your explanation and I perfectly agree with you.
When I wrote "it seems to work properly only either on velcro rigs or on 2 pin rigs" I wrote that ONLY in terms of doability, in the sense that wrap around corners together with dynamic corners COULD be easily done on a Velcro rig.
I understand, after your explanation, that wrap around corners together with dynamic corners are NOT a good idea at all on Velcro rigs.
In fact, I was thinking about doing dynamic corners mod on my Prism, but my friend Tom refuses firmly either to post or to send me any picture of dynamic corners mod he did on his Prism... :(
Stay safe out there
Blue Skies and Soft Walls
BASE #689 - base_689AT_NO_123_SPAMyahoo.com

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It catches without the corner inflating. The stitching around the outside of the mesh, and the mesh itself, can get caught in the edge of the (normal, flat) corner.
-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

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I have never personally experienced the problem Tom is reffering to. But I guess there is always a first time for everything. This is the first time I've ever heard this type of problem happening at all-either on our gear, or any one elses for that matter.

If there is any one out there who has had this problem, I would very much like to hear about your experience.

Tom, You said that "the stitching around the outside of the mesh or the mesh it self can get caught on the edge of the (normal, flat) container."
What do you mean by normal flat corner? Not all bottom corners are closed the same way so what is normal? "The stitching around the outside of the mesh can get caught" On what?
Please send pics if you have them so every one can see exatly what you mean

For years, some manufactures (including ourselfs) have chosen to place "caps" on the apex of PCs in a very similar fasion to how vented PC's are built. It seems strange that no one has reported this problem until now. Or has it been? If so please let me know.
Kevin

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...You said that "the stitching around the outside of the mesh or the mesh it self can get caught on the edge of the (normal, flat) container."
What do you mean by normal flat corner? Not all bottom corners are closed the same way so what is normal? "The stitching around the outside of the mesh can get caught" On what?



Ok, I'm talking about a rig with folding dynamic corner inserts (like the Morpheus rigs). When the corner is in the uninflated, flat position (i.e. closed normally) there is still a ridge of stiffened fabric right at the bottom corner of the rig. A wrap around style corner will hide this corner and largely eliminate the problem.

When you pull the PC out of the pouch (still packed in a mushroom), the mesh (or, to a lesser degree, the edge of the cap) can hang up on the stiffened edge of the dynamic corner insert. I'm not talking about a locked in, total malfunction kind of thing. It just creates a momentary hitch in your throw, as you encounter the tension and have to increase your pull strength of overcome it. The only time it's going to hurt someone is if (a) they hit the extra tension and panic, or (b) they are really, really low to begin with.

Unfortunately, I've got no camera to take pictures of this at the moment (sorry, Andrea), but I'll do so as soon as I have the necessary equipment (perhaps the week after next) available.
-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

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Thanks for the quick response. Honestly, I don't have that much experience with Morpheus rigs so I'm still fuzzy on what your refering to. I'm looking forward to seeing the pics when you can get them or if any one else can provide them that would be great. Theres no point in recreating an old potential hazard with a "new design"

I don't want to seem as if I'm trying to promote our gear above others, but I beleive that our design will not have this problem. But again that remains to be seen.
I'll be posting some pics of our terminal tests when we're done

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> but I'll do so as soon as I have the necessary equipment (perhaps the week after next) available

:)
Stay safe out there
Blue Skies and Soft Walls
BASE #689 - base_689AT_NO_123_SPAMyahoo.com

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