Push 0 #1 January 3, 2004 I'm looking at some used canopies to buy, and I've got some questions for you experienced people so I can make a good decision. 1) When did they start manufacturing the Safire2? 2) What is the actual size of a Safire1 149 made in August 2000? I know that there's been some differences in measuring methods between PD and Icarus at some point, and I want to make sure that I'm not getting a pocket rocket. All I've been able to find is a statement by phreezone that a Safire is 7% smaller than advertised if made before a certain date, but he didn't say what that date is. 3) What exactly is a Jedei? I've never seen anyone fly one. All I think I know is that it's an airlocked Stiletto. Could someone clarify? 4) How does the recovery arc of a Stiletto compare to that of a Safire1 and a Jedei? What about glide? Performance in breaks? Rear/front riser pressure? That's a lot of questions, but the internet is probably the only place where one can find people who have this information and are all in one place. Thanks everyone. -- Toggle Whippin' Yahoo Skydiving is easy. All you have to do is relax while plummetting at 120 mph from 10,000' with nothing but some nylon and webbing to save you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #2 January 3, 2004 A Safire 149 is close to a PD 135. All original Safires are sized different. With the Safire2 redesign came the change in measuring back to PD sizes. Do a search for Jedei or Jedi. The Jedei was a canopy made by Air Time Designs, brainchild of Brian Germain. It was built off of the Johnathon plantform at first then airlocks were added. In many ways the canopy suffered from issues since the company would change the design of the canopy in midproduction. It is hard to find two Jedeis that were built identical since they were always tweeking the design. Jedei owners are usally very loyal to their canopy and for a while it was the only canopy to increase in value after purchase. In a lot of ways the Jedei was superiour to the Stiletto in its proformance window. The Jedei turns faster, dives steeper and carries its speed as well as a Stiletto. Granted the last of the Jedeis was built in about 98 or the design is a little dated now compared to things like the Samauri (Replacement and ultimate goal of the Jedei project), Vengence and Crossfire2 series of canopies. The Jedei is not a starter or even a HP transition canopy. It might be an older design but it is still very much a high proformance canopy and is still widly used in swoop comp's. My Jedei has 1300+ jumps on it and I still can out fly almost everyone on the Dropzone at a lighter loading then thiers with it. My Jedei has high front riser pressure and it glides about as well as a brick. Its pointed down towards the ground and it requires rears on long spots. Flat turns on my Jedei are tricky and took about 50 jumps to learn since the canopy wants to dive on input. Its got a negitive recovery arc where it does'nt plane out as soon as input is released... it keeps diving for a bit. Comparing a HP canopy to an intermediate canopy is'nt apples to apples. Unless you are the type of pilot that is looking at a Stiletto, Vengence, HP 9 cell elliptical the Jedei is'nt the best choice in canopy decisions.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Push 0 #3 January 3, 2004 Thanks Phree. Now I understand what the Jedei is, and I understand that I don't need it. -- Toggle Whippin' Yahoo Skydiving is easy. All you have to do is relax while plummetting at 120 mph from 10,000' with nothing but some nylon and webbing to save you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
trigger 0 #4 January 3, 2004 Just a side note.RE. Safires made in the CIMSA factory Spain were i believe measured the same as PD and it was only the Safires made by PA that were measured differently..CHOP WOOD COLLECT WATER. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dragon2 0 #5 January 3, 2004 QuoteJust a side note.RE. Safires made in the CIMSA factory Spain were i believe measured the same as PD and it was only the Safires made by PA that were measured differently. Nope not true. All original Safire's have the size issue no matter their origin. ciel bleu, Saskia Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
trigger 0 #6 January 3, 2004 Can't confirm or deny...but i'm pretty sure if my source's are correctthat the european made safires didn't have any sizing issues. edited to add:You've got me thinking so i'm chasing it up.CHOP WOOD COLLECT WATER. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TALONSKY 0 #7 January 3, 2004 I can confirm that it applies to all Safire's. I had a Safire 169 made in Spain comparing it to a Sabre 150, they were the same size. I e-mailed Icarus and explained that this had been talked about here and if they could give me a reply that I could post so here is Icarus's reply The Safire-1 and the Omega are measured differently to PD canopies. As a rough guide a Safire-1 or Omega is about the same size as the next size down - eg A Safire 149 is about a 135. A Safire 119 is about a 109. Use an equation of 8%. The Safire-2 and Omni (Omni supercedes Omega) are measured the same as PD. All other Icarus Canopies are measured the same as PD. The reason for the difference is due to Precision measuring their canopies differently. Icarus have always measured the same as PD however when we originally commenced in the USA, Precision were building parachutes for us under license and were doing it using their size equations and not Icarus/PD's. We have therefore had to wait to supercede these models to change the size equation. Only the Safire and Omega were affected. Blue skies Simon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
trigger 0 #8 January 3, 2004 The reason for the difference is due to Precision measuring their canopies differently. Icarus have always measured the same as PD however when we originally commenced in the USA, Precision were building parachutes for us under license and were doing it using their size equations and not Icarus/PD's. Thats my point i thought it was only the canopies that were made by Precision USA that were affected by sizing issues and not the ones made by CIMSA Barcelona ..CHOP WOOD COLLECT WATER. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TALONSKY 0 #9 January 3, 2004 Well as I just stated, I had a Safire 1 169 made in Spain and compared it to a Sabre 150. They were relatively the same size (taking in consideration that the Safire is tapered and the Sabre 1 150 is not). From talking to Icarus and the e-mail the sizing thing affects all Safire 1"s and all Omega's not just the one's PA made. From my understanding there is one differance between the PA made one's and the Spain made ones. It seems a fair amount (not all of them) made by PA have less bottom end flair and open kind of hard where as the open's made in Spain perform great. (When talking to Icarus about having my Safire relined, they relayed that message to me. Plus, talking to other here and at the DZ that have Safire's seems to enforce the idea that the PA made one's perform different than the Spain made one's) Kirk Kirk Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dragon2 0 #10 January 3, 2004 QuoteCan't confirm or deny...but i'm pretty sure if my source's are correctthat the european made safires didn't have any sizing issues. edited to add:You've got me thinking so i'm chasing it up I just sold my Safire 135 today, which came from CIMSA, and was definately way smaller then my Spectre 135... ciel bleu, Saskia Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jimbo 0 #11 January 3, 2004 How did you measure the two canopies? - Jim"Like" - The modern day comma Good bye, my friends. You are missed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dragon2 0 #12 January 4, 2004 Quote How did you measure the two canopies? - Jim I didn't measure them. But I was told it was smaller by the Icarus guy I bought it from in Spain, and it flew and responded way way way faster then my Spectre. ciel bleu, Saskia Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
trigger 0 #13 January 4, 2004 it flew and responded way way way faster then my Spectre It would do it's a totally different animal to a spectre. I've emailed Joris who works for icarus canopies in spain to see if he can shed some straight from the horses mouth info on how the CIMSA made safire 1's were measured..as the original icarus email only makes reference to the safires made by Precision in the US..CHOP WOOD COLLECT WATER. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dragon2 0 #14 January 4, 2004 Joris is the guy who told me this... And yeah I know it is a different canopy.......... ciel bleu, Saskia Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
trigger 0 #15 January 4, 2004 Apples to apples.Pears to pears.CHOP WOOD COLLECT WATER. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TALONSKY 0 #16 January 4, 2004 I think you are reading more into Simons letter than was intended in this paragraph: The Safire-1 and the Omega are measured differently to PD canopies. As a rough guide a Safire-1 or Omega is about the same size as the next size down - eg A Safire 149 is about a 135. A Safire 119 is about a 109. Use an equation of 8%. The Safire-2 and Omni (Omni supercedes Omega) are measured the same as PD. Simon does not state just the one's made by PA are affected but he does make a blanket statement that covers all Safire's and Omega's. Later in the letter he gives the reason for the measurement error as being purely PA fault, but at no time does he state that only PA made canopies are affected. Kirk Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TALONSKY 0 #17 January 4, 2004 This is a repost of my measurement comparison between a Sabre 150 and a Safire 169. I know now that the bottom skin would have been a better place to measure from still all measurement points were the same on each canopy so the comparison is apples to apples. Once again my Safire was made in Spain. I know that several times there has been a debate about Safire size being different than a PD of the same size. This weekend I had a chance to measure my Safire 169 against a Sabre 150(did a hop-n-pop in the rain). To measure the canopy here is what I did (I know this may not be extremely accurate but I feel it at least compare the two well):”all measurements were taken with the material pulled tight on flat on the ground” 1) I measured the length at the nose from seam to seam on both canopies ( Sabre 150 was 5” longer than a Safire 169) 2) I measured the center cell on each for width( Sabre was 4” shorter than the Safire) 3) Then because the Safire is lightly elliptical I measured the end cells for width(Safire tapers 13-1/2” center to end) 4) Then I created a 9” thick (flat) solid model of each in Cadkey and got a mass reading. Which stated the Sabre had a bigger mass(not by much) So with this a Safire 169 is just a little smaller than a Sabre 150. Which verifies what Icuras had told me. (both canopies were made in 2000) Blue Skies Kirk Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
trigger 0 #18 January 4, 2004 Totally agree with what your saying!But the email reads to me like only canopies[safires/omegas]manufactured by PA were affected by sizing,thats why i'm trying contact Joris to try and get some confirmation on whether or not the CIMSA made canopies were originally measured by the same method as PA uses,and if thats the case then well know for sure if all safires/omegas have sizing issues when compared to canopies made by PD[so far without success as my emails keep getting bounced back]. Don't really buy into it looks smaller when compared to my'X'arguement when comparing CIMSA[spanish made safires/omegas] Side note on perceptions though probably not relevent,but i demoed a cimsa made safire and IMO it flew larger than my regular canopy.i.eChuteshop SA ZP150 vs Safire139.CHOP WOOD COLLECT WATER. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TALONSKY 0 #19 January 4, 2004 I may be mistaken(since I have never spent any time researching their products) but isn't a Chuteshop SA ZP150 an elliptical canopy? If it is your comparing apples to oranges. If it isn't may be they are trimmed steeper than Safires. Kirk Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
trigger 0 #20 January 4, 2004 The Chuteshop SA ZP150 is a square very similar and often compared to a PD Sabre.[but must add i've never jumped a sabre] The ZP is now called/replaced by a canopy named the 'EXE' But your right in saying it is trimmed steeper than the Safire. The safire imo was superior when i compared it to the ZP.. Safire=better glide,more powerful flare but imo on finals no faster than the ZP. ZP150=quicker in turns and more 'ground hungry' than the safire[maybe because the ZP's toggle stroke is shorter than that of the safires.re turns] Would recommend a safire over a chuteshop ZP.CHOP WOOD COLLECT WATER. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Swanee 0 #21 January 4, 2004 My Safire 1 169 was made in New Zealand and as far as I know is the same as all the others. It better be. It's currently bring re-lined by Para Concepts in Chicago, and it's being treated the same as those made elsewhere. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
johnny1488 1 #22 January 6, 2004 The first safires and omegas were only made be PA to start the launch of the canopy in the US. Before they were being produced in NZ and Spain, Icarus new of the sizing discrepency and chose to measure all the canopies in the same method to try to conrtol the sizing confusion. They waited to change the line to go back to their preferred sizing methods (pd's), like the xfire, xfire2, fx, vx, tandem and student zp. Johnny --"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!" Mike Rome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
