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Rdutch

???? Jumping

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Ok the smart ass in me took over. After reading the excellent report from Mexico, I was surprised to see that it was modified. Site naming and the policies involved make sense but this is ridiculous. It was a Legal trip. I think that if we have to be so pampering to the idiots of the world to not name legal sites, just to keep someone that doesnt know better from going there, then maybe we need to change the name, no more B.A.S.E. jumping lets call it ?.?.?.? jumping, come on if you tell someone bridge, antennae, or span they just might be tempted to try one of them. Site naming Illegal sites is a bad idea, but the many legal places and especially events shouldn't be held back, and you can easily do a search to find somewhere to jump. Education is better than restriction. Maybe you could add a (???? jumping is a dangerous sport, attempting to do so without proper training can and most probably will result in death, if you dont die and you get caught at a popular ???? site you will get flogged by your local ???? jumping community) to every legal site post, then that would keep people from doing something stupid. But judging the complexity of organizing a trip to Mexico (Is that saying too much) I dont think some weekend yahoo is going to go there for his first ever ???? Jump. And most probably would be interested in contacting whoever is organizing the trip's and arranging training and equipment for the trip.

This came because I was interested in doing a search of the site's to see if I could find picture's.


Ray
Small and fast what every girl dreams of!

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Hey Ray,

How many BASE jumps you have??? How many sites have you worked hard to open, then lost to some skydiving yahoo??? Before you condemn the wishes of the moderator and MOST ALL OF US BASE JUMPING READERS, try looking at it from OUR angle, we love to share sites and info, try PMing anyone of us.....
sorry if this sounds arrogant etc. but you touch a nerve with me, all we are asking for is cooperation, do it our way and the possiblities are endless, do it your way and have fun on solos...and getting all the tar out of your fingernails ;)
edited: I realize you are talking about not naming LEGAL sites, all I'm saying is respect the wishes of the elders and play the game our way, after all there is a reason Tom A and crew have all those jumps.
Peace,
Blair

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I understand the thoughts of Tom A, and agree with him mostly, Just trying to make humour at the over moderating going on.
Its his rules and we all have to live with them, but that doesn't mean we have to be happy about it. He even knew he wouldn't get overall positive response to his moderation of the post, as he mentioned.
I think that some people would actually benifit from site naming sometimes, especially the legal one's. How many people do you think got introduced to ??? jumping by bridge day? Also the ones that did recieved training on gear and saftey, an asset to the sport I think. And I might not have impressive base jumping numbers but I do have number's.


Ray
Small and fast what every girl dreams of!

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Its his rules and we all have to live with them,



It aint Toms rule.Its good BASE behavior to not name sites.Youll see it anywere else aswell.

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he wouldn't get overall positive response to his moderation of the post, as he mentioned



Ofcours he knows,from previus treads on the subject.

About the introduce thing.Theres no need to introduce to BASE,its a dangerus sport,the people who want to jump,can find info if they do a litel reserch.

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And I might not have impressive base jumping numbers but I do have number's.



I dont eiter,but then again,ill dont to have to jump from the # ill jump a object instead:P

Stay safe
Stefan Faber

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Here's an excerpt of the PM I sent to the original poster on this subject:

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I edited the...thread to remove the site names.

I was worried that, with the large number of skydivers on DZ.com, you could potentially find someone reading it who thought:

"Hmm. Legal? Big Wall? Don't have to fly to Europe? I'll just hop down there and make my first jump there. It's all about the bandit jumps. Screw those Adrenaline Exploits guys and there 'big money' expeditions!"

You get the idea.

Anyway, nice work down there. Maybe I'll get a chance to join one of your trips sometime.



Combining the factors (delicate access, guide required, expensive to do properly, difficult site, high consequences for error) I felt that this site was particularly sensitive.

Sometimes I question my own decisions to edit out site names. This is not one of those times.

Feel free to PM me (or post further here) if you want to discuss my decision to edit the post.
-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

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I'm not trying to be argumentative, but a lot of this site-naming discussion has raised a question for me. And before I ask it I'll add that I recently opened a site, so I have a personal stake in site preservation.

Anyway, my question is this... how many sites have actually been closed/ruined by yahoo skydiver bandit jumpers? A well known illegal E in NPS land was once opened but subsequently closed, but that was due to (among other things) the misbehavior of some idiotic BASE jumpers, not skydivers (as far as I know).

Again, this is an honest question... I'm not trying to be combative or belligerent.

- Z
"Always be yourself... unless you suck." - Joss Whedon

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Anyway, my question is this... how many sites have actually been closed/ruined by yahoo skydiver bandit jumpers? A well known illegal E in NPS land was once opened but subsequently closed, but that was due to (among other things) the misbehavior of some idiotic BASE jumpers, not skydivers (as far as I know).



I'm in a foul mood today, so apologies in advance if I seem ill-tempered.

We nearly lost a S in the PNW due to an idiot skydiver buying a BASE rig, driving to a site named by someone (likely a Seattle jumper spewing about their kewl exploits at the DZ over beers. . . but could also have been an online post), juming, nearly killing himself, making the nightly news on all the channels, making every BASE jumper in the PNW look like complete idiots by association, etc.

Perhaps fortunately, the skydiver in question was not smart enough to find the correct S and jumped a sub-100 foot one instead. So the "real" S wasn't burned properly, though the heat on it (and elsewhere) certainly turned up after this little exploit.

So there's a current, verified, tangible example. Q.E.D.

As to the original poster on this thread, I echo 700's comments. . . lemme guess. . . you are a skydiver with 0 BASE jumps who has never opened an object in your life, and likely never will.

Personaly, I'd not put anything past testosterone-poisoned, yahoo skydivers when it comes to doing stupid things relating to BASE. Some skydivers are convinced that their heroism at the DZ is an automatic ticket to BASE fame and fortune. Their misunderstanding of our sport can cost those of us who actually are jumpers dearly.

Therefore, we all pretty much support policies designed to protect naive skydivers from themselves. . . and protect us from them, as well. The DZ is a great place to go with a big ego, not much knowledge, and desire to impress others. BASE is not.

Peace,

D-d0g
BASE 715
. . . over 20 new objects opened, and counting. . .
+~+~+~+~
But this, surely, was the glory that no spirits, canine or human, had ever clearly seen, the light that never was on land or sea, and yet is glimpsed by the quickened mind everywhere.

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Damn straight. I only have a handful of BASE jumps, and have definitely never opened an object, but I can see the logic in hiding names. Hell, the nearby A sometimes seems on the verge because too many people at SDO know about it.
"¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯"

Click

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So there's a current, verified, tangible example. Q.E.D.



Thanks d-dog, that's the sort of response I was hoping to get. This question had come up in offline discussions we've been having and I was hoping to get some real-life examples.

- Z
"Always be yourself... unless you suck." - Joss Whedon

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first, i have no BASE jumps. i'm just a BASE wanna-be. referring to the original post here, changing all of the sites names were an exercise in futility as they can be accessed simply be checking the original poster's "profile" and going to his website. i completely understand why BASE jumpers would oppose a "skydiver" giving up objects, or sites. but my question is this, how would a "skydiver" who don't know jack about BASE do it safely without someone giving up some information? or is it the BASE communities position to be "closed, or cliquish?" again, i'm in question/information mode here, no offense intended. i'm not going to come accross as knowing anything about BASE, because i don't, but i want to learn, and i want to be safe. maybe the "skydivers" who go out and get hurt, or worse yet, killed subsequently revealing a site, or an object could have been prevented by an experienced BASE jumper's supervision. sooner or later as interest in BASE jumping rises even further, someone should "step up" and help the "skydivers" who are so inclined to try their hand at BASE jumping. truth of the matter is BASE gear is not regulated, and can be procured by anyone, and if someone goes to the trouble and $$$ of purchasing gear, we should acknowledge their intention of utilizing the gear for enjoyment. nothing but respect for your community.......
--Richard--
"We Will Not Be Shaken By Thugs, And Terroist"

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someone should "step up" and help the "skydivers" who are so inclined to try their hand at BASE jumping.



I could name some who does this(dont tell name while i dont know if they want it/respect to them).Theres alot of info on the net,you can ask the Qs you want.
Theres FJC different places of the world.
But if any one would start BASE,they should get a mentor,that can help them in practice

Stay safe
Stefan Faber

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but my question is this, how would a "skydiver" who don't know jack about BASE do it safely without someone giving up some information?

http://www.blincmagazine.com/cms/article_283.shtml

http://www.vertigobase.com/html/course.htm

http://www.basicresearch.com/

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...changing all of the sites names were an exercise in futility...


I disagree. Your statement is tantamount to saying "if everyone else is doing something, I ought to do it too."

While you cannot force anyone to do anything, you can do what you think is right, in the areas that you can change. I understand that some people will not share my views on BASE ethics. That does not mean that I ought not to hold those views.

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...as interest in BASE jumping rises even further, someone should "step up" and help...


I totally agree. That's why I try to help out with BASE knowledge on sites like this one.

There is a huge difference, though, between helping with BASE technique and equipment, and handing out sites. If you want help learning about BASE, I'll gladly "step up". If you want to learn specific sites, come and jump with me (or any other BASE jumper) in person. We're not against sharing knowledge. We're against putting potential dangerous knowledge into the public domain. The idea is to get people to ask for help. If they need help finding the sites, then they are also going to need help jumping them.

Let me go back and bump up our last discussion about this. Have you read it?
-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

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the sites you posted are appreciated. (but that's the first place(s) i went to, long ago) i've done more than a few "virtual jumps" but just as i didn't learn how to "skydive" out of a magazine, or a url, i wouldn't actually buy gear, go to one of these sites, and go BASE jump off of an object somewhere on my own, without proper instruction and coaching. Stephen had an excellent suggestion in the "mentor" idea, which is, in my opinion the only way i would do it. thus bringing us back to my original inquiry, who is willing to step forward and help train new BASE jumpers to insure safe and incident free jumping? or does the BASE community wish to be a "closed society?" the way it is now, with everything, and everyone being so "tight lipped" about everything, it could be said that the BASE community may share in some small part, some responseability for disclosed locations of sites, objects, etc...because of the unwillingness to share, and provide information except in the "forums" where a face cannot be associated with a name. i'm sure we'll all agree some type of training program must be instituted in order to abstain from further injury/incident/death, and subsequent disclosure of locations in the future. again, let me reiterate, i know nothing about BASE jumping except for what i have researched, but what i do know is there must be someone, somewhere, willing to mentor and/or train potential BASE jumpers. let's face it, whether it's a site or an object that you personally don't want disclosed, for good reason i may add, it has the potential to be jumped and or desacrated by an inexperienced and untrained "skydiver" because of the absence of training and regulation in this particular realm of "our" sport. i'm old enough, and wise enough to know that i cannot, and would not even consider purchasing gear for any type of jump associated with BASE, but i do know a few "newbies" to "skydiving" that have been vocal about doing it, and they will buy the gear and do the jumps whether mentored, coached or not. which, by the way, i think is a foolish move. thus my concern. in the end, a solid training program, mentoring, coaching and help with appropriate gear selection and site/object(s) is imperitive for the longevity of this sport, so one shouldn't have a particular problem if someone does go somewhere and get hurt, or worse, it's highly possible that some of these people (referred to by some as "whuffo skydivers") have inquired about gear, site/object selection for skill level and has been shunned away. even in the original topic, the poster's url site is posted, and can be visited by anyone, but does not offer any services for BASE newbies, only "experienced jumpers" how do you get experienced? just my 0.02 USD.
--Richard--
"We Will Not Be Shaken By Thugs, And Terroist"

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Have you read it?



just now. you obviously were "bumping" that while i was in composing my response to the urls. i completely understand your thoughts and feelings on this matter, don't get me wrong. i just think it's wrong to cry "foul" when someone does something and has asked for help and was turned away, not that it has ever happened. your offer for instruction and site selection is well recieved. but in my mind there should be a training program instituted at some point in the "learning curve" to BASE jumping. not just what you learned from "joe bob" and in changing the sites names i was referring to, i wouldn't have known the real names of the sites were it not for you post stating you had changed the names of them, this is what prompted me to research further, and culmanated in me going to the poster's website. no website, not an exercise in futility, website = effort wasted.
--Richard--
"We Will Not Be Shaken By Thugs, And Terroist"

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...who is willing to step forward and help train new BASE jumpers...


Lots of people. It's not that hard to find a mentor to train you.

The only commercially available training (as distinct from expeditions) is currently the First Jump Courses offered by various manufacturers. However, a few times in the past a very few jumpers have offered more advanced or intermediate courses. While response is generally good, it is a huge amount of work for the offerers, and the risks are quite large.

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...to insure safe and incident free jumping?


It is impossible to insure safe and incident free BASE jumping.

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...does the BASE community wish to be a "closed society?" the way it is now...


The BASE community is hardly homogeneous. Some parts of it are easy to get into, some parts are harder. It's pretty much like everything else. But it's not that hard to join. Some random dude who likes to climb (but has never made a parachute jump) can decide to become a BASE jumpers, and four years on can find himself in most of the "in" clubs (and even moderating an internet forum on BASE).

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i'm sure we'll all agree some type of training program must be instituted...


I'm not sure that we all agree. I know many experienced BASE jumpers who feel that a formalized training program would detract greatly from the value of the sport. Just because something seems obvious to one does not make it the correct answer for all.

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...a solid training program, mentoring, coaching and help with appropriate gear selection and site/object(s) is imperitive for the longevity of this sport


I agree. But the sentiment is hardly universal. A solid training program is essential for the longevity of any particular participant. Not as unquestionably essential for the longevity of the sport as a whole.

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the poster's url site is posted, and can be visited by anyone, but does not offer any services for BASE newbies...


I don't think that anyone offering BASE gear or services of any kind ought to be required to offer instruction for beginners (or anything else). Some people just sell pilot chutes. Some sell complete rigs. Some offer first jump courses. Some just offer expeditions.

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how do you get experienced?


In my opinion, the best way is to find a local mentor, take a first jump course from a major manufacturer, and start jumping at home under the supervision of your experienced mentor. It's not that complex.

There is plenty of instruction available. It's hardly fair to criticize BASE as a closed community inaccessible to outsiders. Many experienced BASE jumpers level the opposite criticisms.
-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

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if you understood the complexity and danger of BASE jumping mabe you would think different.you said''to insure safe and incident free jumping'' yeah mabe in fantasy land.this base site may be ahead of it's time.and basejumping definitly is'nt for everyone.but the rules on this fourum are for our own good.and yours

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again, i'm in question/information mode here, no offense intended. i'm not going to come accross as knowing anything about BASE, because i don't, but i want to learn, and i want to be safe



my words earlier. and i have a concise understanding of "newton's law" trust me.
--Richard--
"We Will Not Be Shaken By Thugs, And Terroist"

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>how many sites have actually been closed/ruined by yahoo skydiver >bandit jumpers?


#50 Christopher Kennedy, December 2,1997
Age: 35
Antenna Jump
Tucson Arizona, USA
Impact
"Christopher is dead when his feet left the tower is what other jumpers said after
this fatality. Using a skydiving rig not modified for BASE, and without any prior
BASE training or experience, he climbed 364-feet up a 450-foot tower and
jumped only to find his bungee controlled collapsible pilot chute didn't work well at
slow airspeeds. A passer-by found Kennedy's body near the tower the next morning.
He had pulled his reserve handle at some point prior to impact. Alcohol may have been
a contributing factor in this fatality."


Does it really matter if any sites have been closed/ruined or not?
I'm all for thinning out the genepool, but not at the expense of a good BASE site.

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i don't know where this thread went. But oh well.

If you want to BASE. Quite crying about it being such a clique. It is. So what. Reason being is the guys that do it, and are true to it, don't want to influence anybody into doing it. They know what they are doing, and the risks.

At Kapow, 2 years ago, Only One guy had a couple BASE jumps. Now there is 20 or more. But when the first ones where breaking into it, the guys from up North that are bad ass BASE jumpers and have opened most everything here, wouldn't hardly talk to them. They seemed cliquey. But who cares. They were awesome in that they wouldn't encourage anybody to take it up. If they saw somebody that shouldn't do it, they are plane asses. That is a good thing.

The ones that really wanted to, forced their way into the club, then, they were helped Tremendously by the ones that seemed cliquey. Now, they will give all the advice they can.

It is great they act a bit elitest at first. For crying out loud, you are jumping off a rock, with one parachute. Not normal in any context.

----------------------------
bzzzz

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Start BREAKING LAWS! That is the learning curve.
I am sorry to sound harsh, but if you want to be a "law abiding citizen", BASE will not be for you. BASE is not about following the law. "Trespassing" At the least, that is what we are talking about. And I would not like to see you break the law.
I don't BASE jump at night because it is safer. I BASE jump at night because there is MUCH less chance of being seen by authority types.
Sorry dude, but if LAW ABIDING is your game, BASE jumping is NOT.

Later,
Thomas

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thats not all true Thomas.There are some legal sites around the world.

I have even heard about one/some?who would take a legal BASE#

The biggest shame for me wouldnt be to get caugth,but to burn a site,so the next or i couldnt jump there again,that cant be countet in mony how much damage such a thing would be

Stay safe
Stefan Faber

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This whole thread has taken so many different turns, that I'm not sure I'm commenting on the original topic. But I would like to share how I, and maybe at least one more jumper down here in our little bitty BASE world think. But we've been known to not think like the normal folk from time to time so be warned.
First, I feel your entry into the sport should be a PERSONAL one. Not because you feel pressured from the "cool dudes" that are doing it. Then, if you are really interested in getting into it, it's up to YOU to learn as much as you can about it before you make that jump. Just like you are responsible for your own Skydive, you are also responsible for your own BASE jumping. This can be done several ways already mentioned somewhere in this thread.
Your so called "mentor" will know just from a few minutes of talking with you whether or not you are really the right person to be going off his hard earned object or not. Trust me, you can tell the difference between someone who is just curious, and someone who wants to BASE jump more than anything else in the world.
It's all about the preparation, and your level of dedication that will win you over with another BASE jumper.
And I agree with CrazyThomas, unless you are fortunate enough to travel the BASE circuit and hit all the legal sites at your leizure, if you want to jump, you will break a law here or there. You won't have impressive jump #'s, but you'll be jumping. And you will be very protective of the sites you have worked hard to open and keep open. The curious skydiver that just wants to make one experimental jump off your object to see if BASE is for them, probably wont be on your next load. They have annual festivals in an easterly State for that.

Rod

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Sorry dude, but if LAW ABIDING is your game, BASE jumping is NOT



while i'm certainly not the "rebel" you are, i would not jump an illegal site. there are plenty of legal sites. and your hardly one to be giving advice CT. your moniker speaks volumes of your mindset and attitude. and BREAKING LAWS is hardly the ascent at the base of the "learning curve"
--Richard--
"We Will Not Be Shaken By Thugs, And Terroist"

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