BASE Canopies

[Dd0g 0]

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Fox still a good choice for a canopy?

The FOX is the last generation (Mojo/FOX) technology. Basic Research (manufacturer of the FOX) now has a new canopy called the Flik. CR's latest generation is the Ace and Blackjack.

FOX's are still good workhorse canopies (tough, reliable), but for cutting edge BASE I'd prefer one of the next generation canopies.

Many active BASE folks consider the vented Fox to be the most reliable, most tested, most trusted, most predictable canopy on the market today (the Mojo is a decent canopy, but with no bottom-skin venting it is, indeed, old technology). While there is, as Tom says, new technology available in the Flik and the Blackjack/Ace, opinions are decidedly mixed on these canopies (at least on the latter).

I do my share of "cutting edge" jumps I suppose, and I'll trust my fat ass to a vented Fox and let other folks be guinea pigs with new canopy designs for a few years before I jump in the pool. I'll trade 10 units of fancy goo-gads for one unit of predictability when the chips are down.

Anyway, one Dog's (alternate) opinion of canopy characteristics.

Peace,

D-d0g
[email protected]
www.wrinko.com

[CrazyThomas 0]

Don't forget Vertigo. Vertigo also offers vents on the bottom of the daggers they make. They have the option available.
That's all. Fairness for all. Vertigo also offers vented technology.
Why fight about who has it? Let's all be safer, and jump longer. More? No. The odds are stacked against us BASE jumpers in simple math.
The more we jump = the more we die.
Simple math. So, who wants to dis Robin Heid here, because he only has around 100 jumps? I think he is smarter because he picks and chooses his jumps.
Let me guess. I am doing dirty laundry again?
Peace,
Thomas

"Can't we all just get along?"

[TomAiello 25]

Excellent points. Maybe we can split this canopy discussion off and move it into the BASE forum, and see if it develops into a technical discussion...

Thanks for chiming in, Doug. Now if only you could figure out how the zipper thing works.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[skreamer 1]

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Blackjack/Ace, opinions are decidedly mixed on these canopies (at least on the latter).

Would you mind sharing some of those opinions? (both positive and negative)

Thanks

[TomAiello 25]

I have reproduced D-dOg's comments from the ABA Forum thread entitled "Vtec v. Blackjack v. Ace". I couldn't figure out how to create a link directly to the thread, so I hope it's ok to cut and paste this bit...

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While I do not have a statistically valid sample size on which to base these observations, and I have not jumped a Blackjack myself, I'd caution against the canopy at this point.

1. Forward speed in full flight is much faster than with a Fox (vented or non-vented) or Mojo and more comparable to the Troll. While on some jumps that forward glide is an asset (i.e. non-wingsuit XXX where the landing area is far off, and XXX here in XXX slider up), most jumps that I do aren't like this. Having an additional 15 km/h of forward speed just makes setting up for landing more challenging. Not impossible, just more challenging.

2. Blackjacks are earning a reputation for squirrely openings slider up, particularly sub-terminal. While Pete posts here that he liked the Blackjack openings he saw in KL, I've seen three separate experienced jumpers under this canopy and I didn't like what I saw. All jumpers had 400+ jumps. Sometimes snivels, sometimes hard openings. More importantly, I've seen 30+% rates of greater than 90 degree off heading on the approx 20 Blackjack slider-up jumps I've personally watched. That is for flat and stable deployments, and at least for me is enough to pass on the canopy until I get much better data showing that this was merely a statistical anomoly that I witnessed.

3. Everyone I've know who has flown the Blackjack either slider up or down has remarked that it is "twitchy" to fly. One jumper feels that very strong canopy pilots can master this twitchiness and turn it to an asset. One jumper felt he flew it well, but perhaps didn't and had a bad incident under the canopy. One jumper simply felt it was too twitchy to be really useful, and doesn't jump one any more.

Gear choice is, of course, a personal decision. I've made over a hundred jumps on a Mojo, and the canopy works well for me given that it is not vented. Beyond that, I've gone to a vented Fox and simply won't go back to non-vented canopies ever again. I also won't go to a Troll or Blackjack until I am convinced that they are as consistent, predictable, and forviging as the vented Fox.

In my opinion, if you are doing jumps where landing area glide ratio is important, consider the new vented/valved Troll. The old, unvented Troll we used to call the "jellyfish canopy" for its spooky slider-down pressurization, but I hear from multiple sources that the venting has helped alot slider-down, the valves make great glide ratio, and the slider up deployments are generally lauded as on par with a Fox.

Otherwise, the vented Fox is quite simply the gold standard on the market now. It has saved my ass many times; stalling backwards is effective, deployments are really consistent and positive, and riser correction is effective, relatively quick, and doesn't result in canopy collapse (partial) as tends to happen with unvented canopies like the Mojo.

While the new BR Flik might be a good, next-generation canopy, I'll stick with the Fox until I am 95% convinced the new canopy is both better in relevant parameters and also safer all around for the type of jumping I do.

Sorry to ramble, but I'm honestly worried about the Blackjack. I've seen with my own eyes a little too much craziness on slider-up deployment, and I'd hate to sit on my opinions and then hear of injuries and wonder if I could have spoken up and had a positive effect.

No disrespect to CR; I love my Mojos and again this is simply my opinion. At the least, jump the Blackjack before you buy it, and don't do your first jumps on a sub-terminal, slider-up jump with a hard object behind you.

I don't agree with D-dOg, but I do have a great deal of respect for his opinions.

I personally have found the Blackjack highly responsive. It does lose altitude very quickly in a hard riser turn, and I think that yanking a riser too hard in an emergency can be a bad response with this canopy. I believe that you can practice riser corrections, though, and actually get better response from the Blackjack than from any other canopy (with proper technique and practice). I believe this bit "...one jumper feels that very strong canopy pilots can master this twitchiness and turn it to an asset..." is a reference to my views.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[Faber 0]

Were it at your Blackjack you had a line over?

Stay safe
Stefan Faber

[TomAiello 25]

No, the lineover was on my Troll.

I do not believe the canopy design was at fault in the line over. That malfunction was probably caused by pure Black Death, poor packing or the pack job shifting around in transit after packing. I tend to think it was just bad luck--statistically it will happen eventually.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[Faber 0]

I agree
I were just thinking on the fligth,in wich i thourgth were in a Blackjack(i saw the video),and saw the gentel touch while you landed.My landing didnt look like that at all.In both landings it were risers landings.

Stay safe
Stefan Faber

[Dd0g 0]

Thanks for bringing those comments over from the ABA, Tom. While I do stand by my comments therein, I also want to emphasize once again that I've NEVER jumped a Blackjack myself. In the interest of full disclosure, an extremely good friend of mine also died while jumping this canopy; it is not possible, emotionally, for me to be objective about whether the canopy had a substantive involvement in the incident.

Objectively, I can say that I am jumping a Fox right now and am sticking with this generation of technology until convinced there are solid reasons to move on. I believe that, for 95% of BASE folks on 95% of jumps, the consistency and generally forgiving nature of the Fox (with vents) is the optimal canopy. There are certain jumps - and certain jumpers - where another technology may be marginally superior. However, so often in BASE we end up jumping the canopy that we have packed - if I am going to have one packed canopy in my trunk for any given jump, I'll take a vented Fox over anything on the market, bar none.

I'm not sponsored by Basic Research (who make the Fox), I don't get discounts on gear from them, etc. I also have nothing but good things to say about Consolidated Rigging (who make the Blackjack); most of my 200 jumps have been done on a CR Mojo, in fact.

So, again, these are my opinions and are not meant as the definitive answer. Tom has different opinions, and as everyone knows, Tom has more jumps than I and knows more about gear than I do. In a fistfight, however, I'd kick his gimpy ass

Peace,

D-d0g
[email protected]
www.wrinko.com

+~+~+~+~
But this, surely, was the glory that no spirits, canine or human, had ever clearly seen, the light that never was on land or sea, and yet is glimpsed by the quickened mind everywhere.

[CrazyThomas 0]

Anyone ever get jumps on a dagger? Wish to share any thoughts on the dagger from Vertigo?
My only jumps were on a Dragon, which Vertigo sells, but I am not sure they manufacture. This is the canopy that came with my sorcerer. Thoughts:
Fun canopy. Good openings of the 4 I had, and it flew nice. Flew a little fast for some jumps, but I never got the chance to do any deep brakes approaches. I was usually jumping in higher winds, so the extra speed helped. One time I needed to use front risers to gain some forward speed and clear some trees. I was glad the Dragon had the zip in it. Oh yeah, it was Dragon 235, and I weigh around 175, so a fairly high wing loading for BASE jumping. I kept it in mostly clean landing areas though.
It also had an 8 footish bridal, and a 38 ZP pc on it. Nice set up for my 6-7 second delays, but a terrible set up for Idaho. In fact, I was not even crazy enough to jump the bridge with this set up.
Maybe that is where I got my name, but I thought I had it before that action.
Just my.02 on the Dragon, the only OTHER BASE canopy I have jumped.
Peace,
Thomas
oh, a side note. My dragon had Microlines on it. This was to help fit it into the sorcerer, but something to definitely take notice of. More snap, less stretch. I think this would make a difference on slider off/down jumps.

[Luke 0]

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I have reproduced D-dOg's comments from the ABA Forum thread entitled "Vtec v. Blackjack v. Ace". I couldn't figure out how to create a link directly to the thread, so I hope it's ok to cut and paste this bit...

ABA Forum would do the trick.

I've been mentally filing away odd snippets of information on gear selection for a couple of years and now that I want to start BASE I'd pretty much chosen a Fox Vtec with Multi as the "best" option for a beginner, but I had difficulty listing all the reasons why to myself.

This changed when I saw D-dOg's post on the ABA board a couple of days ago. All the observations that he made struck a definite chord with stuff that I've picked up from other people or the BASE boards.

The one negative aspect that I've heard about the vented Fox from a couple of people is that it can open too promptly on longer delays, but I'm ready to accept that appropriate packing could tame that a tad.

I'd be interested to know if anyone disagrees with D-dOg's post, before I throw a considerable amount of money at a vented Fox, rather than a used Mojo.

Cheers,
Ron

[blair700 0]

Please give feedback on the ACE as well??
Thanks

[Dd0g 0]

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The one negative aspect that I've heard about the vented Fox from a couple of people is that it can open too promptly on longer delays, but I'm ready to accept that appropriate packing could tame that a tad.

From ample firsthand experience, I'd say that worries about "hard openings" from vented canopies are unwarranted for two reasons:

1. Slider-up, packing tricks are easily learned to slow openings of any canopy - though, let it be noted that on average these tricks will increase off-heading probabilities and require expert knowledge to use effectively. That said, there's not excuse not to learn them if you plan to do lots of 8+ second slider-up delays on your canopy, vented or otherwise.

2. Slider-down, the only place this is going to matter is in the world of deeper-than-3 second deployments (at less than 3 seconds slider down, there's really not such a a thing as a "hard opening;" just not enough airspeed). In my experience, very very VERY few folks are actually taking (consistent) 3+ second delays slider-down. I can count the number on one hand, in fact, on a global basis (though surely there are more than I know personally. . . I'm merely making the point of relative scarcity). Taking slider-down delays between 3 and 4+ second is a game only for those with a stout constitution and a taste for pain - the openings, no matter what canopy, are HARD. There are no packing tricks to slow them down noticeably. While there might me a small increase in "hardness" between a vented and unvented canopy at, say, 3.5 seconds, this is like saying that 120 volts of electricity hurts "more" than 115 volts (amperage held constant); they both hurt a great deal.

The benefits of canopy venting far, far outweight the perceived cost of "harder openings." In fact, almost no jumpers will experience these hard openings slider-down, and no jumper need consistently experience them slider up (see packing tricks above).

Analogy: a car with better brakes (ABS, for example) stops faster. Would you worry about how much the seatbelt hurts when it holds you in as you are using those better brakes? No, not generally - in fact, your darned happy those brakes are stopping you so fast!

The hardest "opening" in the world is the snively piece-of-crap that puts you into the talus with a partially-inflated canopy over your head. Right, Tom?

Peace,

D-d0g
[email protected]
www.wrinko.com

ps: the Ace is simply the Blackjack without venting (and valves) - thus, I'd recommend doubly against it, for it has the airfoil and flight characteristics of the latter, without the benefits of venting.

+~+~+~+~
But this, surely, was the glory that no spirits, canine or human, had ever clearly seen, the light that never was on land or sea, and yet is glimpsed by the quickened mind everywhere.

[TomAiello 25]

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Vertigo also offers vents on the bottom of the daggers they make.

How long have they offered this option? I can't find it on their web page, or their order forms.

Do you have any more info about this? Cost? Valves or vents?

This is the first I've heard about it.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[CrazyThomas 0]

Check this maybe:
http://www.vertigobase.com/html/prod_pricelist.htm

If you scroll down to the bottom, where it lists Labor, you will find many options that vertigo offers. One is Vent installation. If I remember correctly, this is simply what it says. Vent installation. Does not even need to be a Vertigo Product. Something to the tune of "if you want to send in your fox to get it retro-fitted with vents, we will do that. Just make sure it is clean." I read that in Skydiving I think, I can't remember which issue though. I will look through my old mags, and see if I can find it. Something like around the time Vents were introduced. Say, somewhere around Moab 2000? I remember hearing about DW test jumping a vented canopy. I think it was around beginning of 2000.
But, as always, I could be wrong.
Peace,
Thomas

[TomAiello 25]

Thanks. I'm not very current on Vertigo gear. Discussions like this are very helpful to me.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[Zennie 0]

One criticism of the Fox Vtec that I've heard from a couple of people is that the flare is fairly "mushy" due to the vents.

What's been your experience as far as the flare goes as compared with other canopies?

- Z
"Always be yourself... unless you suck." - Joss Whedon

[TomAiello 25]

The full flight flare of my FOX got noticeable worse when I had the vents retrofitted onto it. Still, since full flight flare is about tenth down my list of priorities for a BASE canopy (which I almost never land from full flight anyway), this doesn't worry me much.

I've also noticed that toggle response in full flight turns feels odd--it's as if the canopy "slides" sideways. Full flight toggle turns are something I never do on BASE approaches, though.

Getting valves to cover the inlets (now available from BR, as well as CR and Morpheus/Atair) solves this problem nicely.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[TomAiello 25]

These are just my personal views. I may be in the minority on some of these, and there is no consensus on any of them among experienced jumpers. I’m basing my thoughts on approximately 200 jumps on an unvented FOX (with multi), 150 on a Vtec FOX (with multi), 100 on a Mojo and 100 on a Blackjack.

Vents:

I pretty much only jump vented canopies. There are lots of reasons for this, which I will not go into here.

I would not recommend a vented (or valved) canopy for a beginner. Deep brakes can cause a canopy with bottomskin inlets to backsurge on opening. Shallow brakes can cause any canopy to surge forward on opening. The opening backsurge phenomenon is poorly understood (and unresearched). Most BASE gear manufacturers have taken to covering up that problem (rather than addressing it) by simply lightening the standard brake settings, removing deep brake settings, and not telling anyone about the problem. This means that most new vented canopies will surge forward on opening. Most inexperienced BASE jumpers will not realize this, and will not know (because the manufacturers, by and large, are not telling them) that they need to customize their brake settings. Kudoz to Morpheus/Atair, the only manufacturer I know of that is trying to address, rather than hide, this issue.

Uncovered secondary inlets (vents) also degrade glide angle and flare power. Valved inlets preserve these characteristics.

In my opinion, secondary (bottom skin) inlets are suitable only for experienced jumpers. I love my Blackjack, and I’m very happy with my Vtec FOX, but I wouldn’t put someone off for their first jumps on either canopy.

Multi:

I am not convinced that the multi has any real effect on deployment. Roughly half my jumps have been on multi-equipped canopies, and I honestly can’t tell the difference. Since the multi adds both cost and complexity to the BASE system, I wouldn’t bother with it, for either beginner or advanced jumpers.

FOX

The FOX is a proven performer. It is solid, easy to pack and can take tons of abuse (mine has 14 patches, and around 50 water landings—and I still jump it). However, the slider down openings of an unvented FOX are somewhat inconsistent. I have found that the canopy reaches bottom skin expansion (initial pressurization) at about the same rate as other canopies, but then lags behind in cell inflation (full pressurization). This makes it slower to initial riser response than either the Mojo or Ace. The same design characteristic (shallow angle of attack) that creates this pressurization issue (and gives it a very good glide angle), makes the FOX “mushy” in deep brakes. The stall point is earlier in the riser stroke than a Mojo, Troll, or Ace, and the canopy has difficulty with steep, braked approaches. Note that the FOX’s issues are very well addressed by adding secondary inlets (vents or valves), but that (see above) I do not recommend secondary inlets for a beginner.

I think the standard FOX is pretty much done. I think the Vtec FOX is a good canopy for an experienced, conservative jumper. I wouldn’t recommend either for a beginner.

Mojo

The Mojo is also a well proven canopy. It has a steeper angle of attack than the FOX, and hence shorter time to full pressurization. This also means that it has superior deep braked approaches, but less glide angle and a weaker flare than the standard FOX (but better than the Vtec FOX).

I wouldn’t be doing any cutting edge BASE on a Mojo (I’m old already—I can hear a lisping Aussie saying “back in the day, we use to do 175 foot freefalls on standard Mojos!”). But, I think it’s a great canopy for a beginner to bang out their first 100 or so jumps on. And, they’re pretty easy to find used (and cheap).

Ace

The Ace is hands down better than the Mojo. It has a wider control range, flying both faster (and with much better glide) and slower (and steeper) than either the FOX or Mojo. This added flight range is a great help in hitting landing areas. Additionally, it pressurizes cleaner and more consistently than either of the earlier canopies. This is partly due to a steep angle of attack, but mostly due to changes in the actual wing profile (kudos to Consolidated Rigging and Atair, for realizing that the first step in designing a new wing ought to be to look at the actual airfoil). While the Ace’s pressurization is not as clean as a canopy with secondary inlets, it is far better than any un-vented canopy I’ve seen.

The Ace is the highest performance BASE airfoil I’ve jumped. This has big advantages if you take the time to learn to fly it. It can sink extremely well (perhaps a touch worse than the Troll, but better than anything else), and is super-responsive to control (either riser or toggle) input. This can be dangerous if you don’t learn to fly it (or are uncurrent on it). I believe that appropriate riser pressure is more important on the Ace than previous canopies. If you yard on a riser, you spin around [I]fast[/I]. This means that you also lose altitude fast. If you are not aware of this, you can sink yourself into real trouble in a hurry. But if you know the canopy, and fly it well, this responsiveness is a tremendous asset.

My vote would be for a used Mojo over that vented FOX. If you’re feeling rich enough for new, I’d go for the Ace.

All right, enough rambling.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[Faber 0]

[2. Slider-down, the only place this is going to matter is in the world of deeper-than-3 second deployments (at less than 3 seconds slider down, there's really not such a a thing as a "hard opening;" just not enough airspeed). In my experience, very very VERY few folks are actually taking (consistent) 3+ second delays slider-down. I can count the number on one hand, in fact, on a global basis (though surely there are more than I know personally. . . I'm merely making the point of relative scarcity). Taking slider-down delays between 3 and 4+ second is a game only for those with a stout constitution and a taste for pain - the openings, no matter what canopy, are HARD. There are no packing tricks to slow them down noticeably. While there might me a small increase in "hardness" between a vented and unvented canopy at, say, 3.5 seconds, this is like saying that 120 volts of electricity hurts "more" than 115 volts (amperage held constant); they both hurt a great deal.]

Funny..
while im much at my own here,my instructer told me that first at 4,5plus sek you would feel like getting kicked,also he said that in 5sek plus there are dangere to for the lines to brooke,and dammaged to the cannopi.Thats the reasson i took my Fox225 non vent good used for a 4sek delay,the day i got hurt.Now i realize that i maybe were told wrong.That it more was a accident waiting to happend,instead of pure unluck..Any thourgt?

Stefan Faber

Stay safe
Stefan Faber

[Faber 0]

[2. Slider-down, the only place this is going to matter is in the world of deeper-than-3 second deployments (at less than 3 seconds slider down, there's really not such a a thing as a "hard opening;" just not enough airspeed). In my experience, very very VERY few folks are actually taking (consistent) 3+ second delays slider-down. I can count the number on one hand, in fact, on a global basis (though surely there are more than I know personally. . . I'm merely making the point of relative scarcity). Taking slider-down delays between 3 and 4+ second is a game only for those with a stout constitution and a taste for pain - the openings, no matter what canopy, are HARD. There are no packing tricks to slow them down noticeably. While there might me a small increase in "hardness" between a vented and unvented canopy at, say, 3.5 seconds, this is like saying that 120 volts of electricity hurts "more" than 115 volts (amperage held constant); they both hurt a great deal.]

Funny..
while im much at my own here,my instructer told me that first at 4,5plus sek you would feel like getting kicked,also he said that in 5sek plus there are dangere to for the lines to brooke,and dammaged to the cannopi.Thats the reasson i took my Fox225 non vent good used for a 4sek delay,the day i got hurt.Now i realize that i maybe were told wrong.That it more was a accident waiting to happend,instead of pure unluck..Any thourgt?

Stefan Faber

Stay safe
Stefan Faber

[CrazyThomas 0]

Quote

Funny..
while im much at my own here,my instructer told me that first at 4,5plus sek you would feel like getting kicked,also he said that in 5sek plus there are dangere to for the lines to brooke,and dammaged to the cannopi.Thats the reasson i took my Fox225 non vent good used for a 4sek delay,the day i got hurt.Now i realize that i maybe were told wrong.That it more was a accident waiting to happend,instead of pure unluck..Any thourgt?

Stefan Faber

Stefan. Yeah, I have a little thought left. Let me see if I can pull it out of somewhere. Pop, here it is.
Hey, now I can sit down.
4.5 sec slider off range is PURE ABUSE in my mind. Not only to a canopy, but also to a body. I have seen one or two people here in the states take a healthy 3 second delay slider off. I just checked BR's chart, 600 foot, 4 second delay = bad idea. Not to pick it apart, as it is only recommendations, but I see a slider is poor performance off a 486 foot bridge.
I have a bigger problem to contend with. As some of you know, I have some metal in my back that acts as a vertebrae (can't say I'm spineless). So, I feel very hesistant to take more than a 2 second slider off/down delay. In fact, when I jump my favorite bridge, I have begun to put the slider on. Sliders are not the only key though.
What I have found is that my mesh slidered/vented Fox cracks open almost as hard on a two second delay than if I had no slider on at all. The cure to this was to simply take my delays a little deeper. I think the theory behind this is that a slider is designed to fight the wind. at 2 second, there may not be enough wind to take advantage of having a slider on. A term comes to mind: Slider Rebound.
And supposedly it helps to rubber band the slider to the center C lines as "direct control". I can't say if it helps or not, as I have not near the experience to determine that one. Maybe slider control could be another discussion?
Why not put the slider up when taking a 4 second delay? The object I have running through my head is around 600 feet? So, if taking a 4 second delay, I can see where the slider off part comes in. It fits into what we were discussing in the "Low Pulls" thread. Pulling around 200 feet, a person would desire a quick opening. Maybe not that quick though. If I recall, it was a blown toggle after opening? That could easily have came from a 4 second slider off delay, in my mind.
Wait, my mind is goofy, so anything I say should be taken for entertainment value only.
Peace,
Thomas

[Luke 0]

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Vents:

I pretty much only jump vented canopies. There are lots of reasons for this, which I will not go into here.

I would not recommend a vented (or valved) canopy for a beginner. Deep brakes can cause a canopy with bottomskin inlets to backsurge on opening. Shallow brakes can cause any canopy to surge forward on opening. The opening backsurge phenomenon is poorly understood (and unresearched). Most BASE gear manufacturers have taken to covering up that problem (rather than addressing it) by simply lightening the standard brake settings, removing deep brake settings, and not telling anyone about the problem. This means that most new vented canopies will surge forward on opening. Most inexperienced BASE jumpers will not realize this, and will not know (because the manufacturers, by and large, are not telling them) that they need to customize their brake settings. Kudoz to Morpheus/Atair, the only manufacturer I know of that is trying to address, rather than hide, this issue.

Uncovered secondary inlets (vents) also degrade glide angle and flare power. Valved inlets preserve these characteristics.

In my opinion, secondary (bottom skin) inlets are suitable only for experienced jumpers. I love my Blackjack, and I’m very happy with my Vtec FOX, but I wouldn’t put someone off for their first jumps on either canopy.

To me it sounds like the vented Fox simply exhibits different opening characteristics in terms of surge, which have been addressed by making the deep brakes setting slightly shallower. If the backsurge problem was inconsistent enough that the brake setting has to be made a lot shallower, so that normal forward surges are much greater than unvented canopies, then this is a real issue to this beginner.

Is that what you're saying: that the vented Fox will typically surge more than an unvented canopy?

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Multi:

I am not convinced that the multi has any real effect on deployment. Roughly half my jumps have been on multi-equipped canopies, and I honestly can’t tell the difference. Since the multi adds both cost and complexity to the BASE system, I wouldn’t bother with it, for either beginner or advanced jumpers.

I'm pretty keen on simplicity and keeping cash in my pocket too but, along with vented small and medium sized PCs, the multi looks and seems like a good logical idea. I'd be interested to hear any negative experiences with the multi in terms of potential problems and packing hassle.

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Ace

The Ace is hands down better than the Mojo. It has a wider control range, flying both faster (and with much better glide) and slower (and steeper) than either the FOX or Mojo. This added flight range is a great help in hitting landing areas. Additionally, it pressurizes cleaner and more consistently than either of the earlier canopies. This is partly due to a steep angle of attack, but mostly due to changes in the actual wing profile (kudos to Consolidated Rigging and Atair, for realizing that the first step in designing a new wing ought to be to look at the actual airfoil). While the Ace’s pressurization is not as clean as a canopy with secondary inlets, it is far better than any un-vented canopy I’ve seen.

The Ace is the highest performance BASE airfoil I’ve jumped. This has big advantages if you take the time to learn to fly it. It can sink extremely well (perhaps a touch worse than the Troll, but better than anything else), and is super-responsive to control (either riser or toggle) input. This can be dangerous if you don’t learn to fly it (or are uncurrent on it). I believe that appropriate riser pressure is more important on the Ace than previous canopies. If you yard on a riser, you spin around [I]fast[/I]. This means that you also lose altitude fast. If you are not aware of this, you can sink yourself into real trouble in a hurry. But if you know the canopy, and fly it well, this responsiveness is a tremendous asset.

My vote would be for a used Mojo over that vented FOX. If you’re feeling rich enough for new, I’d go for the Ace.

All right, enough rambling.

I'm not sure I want a fast flying canopy for a first BASE canopy, I think I'd prefer to get into trouble more slowly. Whilst taking shorter delays for the forseeable future, the additional altitude would make the inferior glide angle of a vented Fox more of a nonissue. I've concluded that as experience and longer delays come I'd simply work with the different flight characteristics and plan jumps accordingly.

Everything you say about the superior responsiveness about the Ace seem to be inappropriate for a beginner. I like the idea of having a better range of flight, both glide and steep approach, but twitchy behaviour sounds less than ideal.

Thank you for taking your time to voice your observations and share your knowledge.
Ron

[Faber 0]

There were no damage on me or the gear,becours the opening.
I does belive that i lost my toggel,becours the opening/bad placement of the toggle.
I didnt feel the opening that hard(maybe im just too used to slider off).but the video did count 4sek.I dont know if the fackt of its old(350jumps) and non vent could say anything in this..
Fact is fact i didnt fly it as well as Tom did(on the risers)

Stay safe
Stefan Faber

[Dd0g 0]

Quote

There were no damage on me or the gear,becours the opening.
I does belive that i lost my toggel,becours the opening/bad placement of the toggle.
I didnt feel the opening that hard(maybe im just too used to slider off).but the video did count 4sek.I dont know if the fackt of its old(350jumps) and non vent could say anything in this..
Fact is fact i didnt fly it as well as Tom did(on the risers)

You are correct that an older canopy will open softer on deep slider-down delays (however, jumping ratty gear to decrease the pounding can be scary too). You are also correct that going deep slider down can blow toggles (I use a custom pin setup with the toggles in part to alleviate this problem). I've actually broken three brake lines taking deep slider down delays - this is a very unpleasant experience, as the opening initiates a pretty violent spinning malfunction.

As to landing with risers, practice makes perfect! Pack your BASE rig in a skydiving container (if possible) and jump it at a DZ, landing rear risers. Many of us believe that it is possible to get a better landing using one riser and one toggle, versus throwing away the second toggle altogether and landing both rear risers - again, this requires practice. In any case, it is possible to land rear risers with BASE canopies very well - but hard to do the first time!

Some comments on Tom's feedback:

1. Multi: I agree that it is hard to know if there is a stastically valid impact on openings with the multi. However, it is pretty much uncontested that the multi has never been known to cause problems. Consequently, many jumpers feel that the potential benefit (still unproven, but hypothetically there) is worth the risk - which is, practically speaking, zero. It's cheap insurance, and I'd never buy a new canopy without a Multi. The "complexity" Tom is worried about is not very complex at all - if you can't pack up your Multi correct, you shouldn't be jumping!

2. Venting: it is worth noting that Tom is very, very, very much in the minority that venting is not for beginning jumpers. All the reasons that venting matters (better openings, better riser input, better correction from off-headings, faster pressurization on opening, ability to back away from objects with double riser input without canopy collapse, and finally faster re-inflation of canopy of nose is dragging down a cliff face after a 180 cliff strike) apply to beginners just as much (if not more so) as more advanced jumpers. The only "downside" of venting, as Tom says, is probably a slightly less powerful flare stroke. This is both not terribly important on 95% of BASE jumps (we rarely land from full flight), and pretty much solved with new valving technology offered by all the gear manufacturers. So why are vents not good for beginners? See below for more discussion.

3. Brake settings: Tom argues that somehow vented canopies require brake setting adjustment out of the factory more than non-vented canopies. I think this is bunk. ANY canopy, shipped from the factory, MUST have its brake settings customized for the jumper. Gear manufacturers guess at brake settings based on the weight you provide them, but it's a guess! You'd be beyond reckless to take a new rig out and jump non-custom brake settings on a tech object first go: venting or otherwise is irrelevant.

True, some manufacturers have a rep for setting "factory" brakes really shallow. ALL gear manufacturers INSIST that jumpers must customize their brakes. Again, venting or not is irrelevant. If you jump gear without custom brakes, you are rolling the dice on objects where an off-heading could result in object strike.

Remember, we set our brakes custom so that, when we open, the canopy is (ideally) stalling, falling straight down. Why? So that, if we get a 180, we can turn away from the object (without releasing brakes) using rear risers, rather than having lots of forward speed on opening (brakes too shallow) and, on a 180, flying into the object even before we can do anything to turn away.

Brake settings too deep result in either a stall, a generally snively/crappy opening, or even backwards flight. Yes, it is true that a vented canopy has the ability to "fly backwards" much more than an unvented one, but if you set brakes too deep on both and jump, the results are going to be equally bad. Unvented, the canopy will pressurize very poorly, respond to toggle/riser input VERY slowly immediately after opening, and generally behave like crap until it gets some forward drive to pressurize (remember, it NEEDS forward drive to pressurize - air enters the cells only through the nose inlets). Vented, the canopy will still pressurize, and will be reasonably responsive - but will stall backwards at a slow rate. Not good if you ass is scraping a wall after jumping an underhung object, but in my book still much better than having an unpressurized, unsteerable nonvented canopy over my head!

So why is it that a vented canopy needs custom brakes more than an unveted one? I don't get that argument at all. If anything, I'd argue the reverse - a vented canopy still pressurizes with brakes too deep, while an unvented one just turns into a big jellyfish over your head.


Bottom-skin venting is a technolgy that is qualitatively better than its predecessor technology in BASE. There is no reason for any jumper to be jumping non-vented canopies today (other than economics: unvented canopies are really cheap on the aftermarket, which tells you what "the market" thinks of their worth relative to their vented brothers). There are many experienced jumpers who have sold off all of their unvented canopies and now jump only vented canopies - they are safer, they are better. Too, there are precious few of us who will freefall sub-200 foot stuff with unvented canopies any more (Aussies being the exception, as usual).

As to beginners, I recently taught a new jumper and I did so with a vented Fox. I'd never think of pitching a student off with unvented gear on his/her early jumps - more than anyone, a student needs the extra pressurization, faster responsiveness, and generally more tolerant behavior of a vented canopy if things get bad (at least this is the case if the objects being jumped have object strike potential - otherwise, the argument becomes essentially academic as venting is all about object strike prevention and response everywhere but in super-low freefall situations).

In fact, I'd argue 180 degress from Tom: an experienced jumper (like Tom or I), if he is really "on his shit," can fly an unvented canopy almost as well as a vented one. We know how to massage them if things get bad, we know their riser input characteristics, we're likely to have our brakes set properly on them in the first place, and we're generally better able to respond to a bad off-heading since (unfortunately) we've had more than a few in our BASE career so we aren't so surprised.

A student? She'll be staring at a cliff face, yanking on a rear riser with an unveted canopy, and nothing's happening. . . .

Recommending unvented canopies to new BASE jumpers is like recommending a car without seatbelts to new drivers.

(standard caveats apply: Tom has more jumps than I, and knows more about gear than I do - I'm just a smelly old Dog!)

Peace,

D-d0g
[email protected]
www.wrinko.com

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