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DemolitionDarby

Freak 2 sub 175 jumps

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Hey guys,

I’ve been flying a Swift 1 for a while now, and I feel really confident and in control of the suit. Getting unstable and recovery isn’t a problem, I can fly an entire jump on my back, barrel roll back to back, front to front on heading, and dock/keep level and pace with other guys in flocking dives.

I want to get into a Freak 2 ASAP, but, don’t have the recommended 175 jumps for it. I’m still sub 100 wing suit flights total.

What are your thoughts on upsizing in wing suits VERY quickly vs going at the factory recommended pace?

Inb4 YOU’LL FLAT SPIN AND KILL YOURSELF!

Thanks in advance :)

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I think 80%+ of Freak owners I know had way less than 175 WS jumps when they got their suits. One had three (in an i-bird). One had approximately zero over the last several years.

You sound like you are more competent than most Freak owners I know.

If you're worried about Squirrel not selling you a suit, worry not. If you're worried about survival, you'll probably be fine. If you want to be a good wingsuitter maybe spend some time on an intermediate step.

Personally, I think it's a shitty idea. I have friends with Freaks with dozens of jumps that I outperformed on jump 2 in my Havoc because I spent a few dozen extra jumps on smaller suits and they went straight small (with the occasional brief funk time) to big. And I'm no rockstar by any stretch of the imagination. But it all depends on what you want from life.

Find a competent wingsuit coach, pay for a few coach jumps and ask their opinion.

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I highly recommend you seek out a good wing suit coach to access your skills . The freak is very large wing . And even with a good amount of jumps it takes time to adjust to the speed and inputs that this suit or any other suits in this range require. Also your deployments need to be solid . With this large wing its easier to get in a bad position as your inputs are more sensitive. Jumping Skydive Perris with lots of Wingsuiters coming through , I see all the time people jumping large suits too soon with not enough progression . Its also very dangerous to others when you don't have good enough control and become the "Meat Missile" at the dz. Your just going to endanger yourself and others . Thanks for posting your concerns .

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Look at the ATC instead
Do some jumps on a suit size in between before dropping your $1700+

It sounds like you can fly your swift well, what about steep and have you had it in some spins?

I went from a P3>Freak1>Freak2 after more than 120 jumps on the P3.
I should have got an ATC

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lyosha

I think 80%+ of 'big suit' owners I know had way less than 175 WS jumps when they got their suits.



Which by itself is a very sad and scary sign of the times..
Structured progression with a focus on skills vs gear, would do so many people so much good in practicing this sport long, safe and without incident, as well as increasing the fun and skills once one finally does get into that big suit category.

Getting a big suit asap seems to be the new 'teach me to swoop...'
JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

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mccordia

***I think 80%+ of 'big suit' owners I know had way less than 175 WS jumps when they got their suits.



Which by itself is a very sad and scary sign of the times..
Structured progression with a focus on skills vs gear, would do so many people so much good in practicing this sport long, safe and without incident, as well as increasing the fun and skills once one finally does get into that big suit category.

Getting a big suit asap seems to be the new 'teach me to swoop...'

I agree, but I think that the Freak is the biggest culprit (I noticed you edited my quote).

It was marketed heavily on how easy it is to fly. All the cool kids instantly wanted one and whatever guidance was given in the fine print (175 jumps, freeflying experience, etc.) literally all of my friends found some way to reason around or simply didn't care to know.

Did I mention I know someone that bought one having three jumps in an i-bird?

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because the ground is much closer in swooping. In wingsuiting someone flying a suit too big for them will end up miles away from their friends or scaring them when they get close.

Stick to the small to medium sized suits - they are just is fun. Havoc Carve 2 is what i fly 95% of the time. There is NEVER a reason to rush into flying a larger wing. It will not make you a good pilot - it will just make it harder to improve your capabilities.

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lyosha


I agree, but I think that the Freak is the biggest culprit (I noticed you edited my quote).

It was marketed heavily on how easy it is to fly.



I had someone ask me last year about the Hunter, when he had less than 40 total WS jumps, on the basis that it was 'easy to fly'.

It does seem similar to swooping. You have those people that ask 10 others for advice and they get told "No" 9 times but when the 10th person says "maybe" what they hear is "Yes, you are correct, there is no need for YOU to pay attention to the recommended progression, for you have mad skillz."

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I hear this question a lot - seems everyone wants to jump a Freak or a Strix. My first question to all of them is why?

Here in the UK, at most DZ's there will be people jumping Phantom/Shadow sized suits, and a few maybe on Havocs. There may also be a couple training for performance/base on big suits. So if someone is to buy a Freak, they'll either constantly shutting it down to fly with smaller suits, or doing solos. A lot of people seem to be sold on the marketing campaigns which show super-talented people doing really cool things with other super-talented people. Reality is, these suits aren't so much fun when you're the only person in one.

For my money, the Havoc Carve (or a Funk, to stop brand wars...) is all the suit most people will ever need. I have nearly 300 jumps on mine - I'm still learning it and it just keeps becoming more fun.

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Even if you are capable and even if you don't consider the bigger suit a safety risk, you will do yourself a disservice (my opinion) if you don't learn to totally milk every drop from a smaller suit.

This has been stated many times by many highly experienced birds, but it is often ignored.
Instructor quote, “What's weird is that you're older than my dad!”

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I was in the same position as you when I had about 100 jumps on my Swift 2. I got a Freak, did about 30 jumps on it, and went back to my Swift 2 for the past 100+ WS jumps. I'm now bouncing back and forth between the two with significantly more respect for what both suits are capable of.

I wasn't ready for the Freak, you might be, but I thought I was and definitely wasn't. The second 100 WS jumps were eye opening as to what I could still learn in the smaller suit without the legitimate risks associated with a larger suit.

The exits and deployments are different. The deflection point in the small suit is kinda fun, it can be scary in a bigger suit. High speed stalls in a big suit get funky quickly, you barely notice them in a small suit.

I got into a few hairy situations that I should have been able to handle better. I got away with things and I'm still here. I managed to have just one cutaway in the Freak (I know 1 out of 30 is ridiculous but I've seen a lot worse ratios). If you exit perfectly and fly straight lines at moderate angles you will be fine. Your deployments may or may not be weird depending on how much you decide to play around with different airspeed modulation techniques.

If you do everything right but someone still runs into you or something, and you over compensate and get yourself into a new situation, you will find out it is a bit different than those instabilities in your Swift 1.

Remember when you downsized from a 260 to a 220 and couldn't do all the things that used to be easy: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=4804520;#4804520? Well the Swift 1 is to the Freak 2 like a 260 is to a 135. The ATC is like a 170 in that analogy.

As an aside, the Swift 1 is a fair bit less performant than the Swift 2. So you might just be wanting something faster, but not really needing to go all the way to a "big" suit. In that case, you will get everything you are probably looking to get out of the Freak 2 by getting the ATC. Personally I would have gotten an ATC if it existed when I bought my Freak.

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jockbauer

I hear this question a lot - seems everyone wants to jump a Freak or a Strix. My first question to all of them is why?

Here in the UK, at most DZ's there will be people jumping Phantom/Shadow sized suits, and a few maybe on Havocs. There may also be a couple training for performance/base on big suits. So if someone is to buy a Freak, they'll either constantly shutting it down to fly with smaller suits, or doing solos. A lot of people seem to be sold on the marketing campaigns which show super-talented people doing really cool things with other super-talented people. Reality is, these suits aren't so much fun when you're the only person in one.

For my money, the Havoc Carve (or a Funk, to stop brand wars...) is all the suit most people will ever need. I have nearly 300 jumps on mine - I'm still learning it and it just keeps becoming more fun.



Because all dzs are different at mine most people are on freaks, c race, or auras I see a lot of people upsize fast to be able to jump with everyone else
BASE 1519

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rokob

I managed to have just one cutaway in the Freak (I know 1 out of 30 is ridiculous but I've seen a lot worse ratios).



Way better than most of my friends!

The freak seems to be where they buy "wingsuit specific canopies" to compensate for lack of consistency at opening time and not wanting to downsize to a smaller wingsuit because everyone at the DZ has a Freak. Lots of people had their first and second cutaways after buying one of thems... some who previously flew big suits from other manufacturers even!

Hope none of them are reading this lol...

But it is kinda funny the dichotomy I see - there are people that fly a crossfire loaded at 1.8 in everything (including C-Race) with zero issues... and there are people that can't get a single reasonable deployment in a Freak with a lightly loaded Sabre and fork over $$$ just to not downsize wingsuits and spend a hundred jumps learning how to deploy cleanly.

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Remember when you downsized from a 260 to a 220 and couldn't do all the things that used to be easy: http://www.dropzone.com/...ost=4804520;#4804520? Well the Swift 1 is to the Freak 2 like a 260 is to a 135. The ATC is like a 170 in that analogy.

That’s probably the best analogy someone has brought up to this point. Thanks, I’ll keep that in consideration.

Another person said: “Because all dzs are different at mine most people are on freaks, c race, or auras I see a lot of people upsize fast to be able to jump with everyone else “

And that’s exactly what’s going on around the DZ’s I jump at. Everyone’s on a Freak or comparable suit. So, yes. I want to upsize quickly to fly with my friends and the “big kids” on their turf instead of them de-powering their suits and flying slow so I can keep up with them.

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At least for me big suits are a totally different feeling, I don't fault anyone for wanting to jump one early. But that said, I've seen a lot of people clench their butt with a new Freak (for dozens of jumps) after only putting 50-100 or so on a smaller suit. Stability always being the biggest issue. Or thinking everything is good for 50+ jumps on one then having a bad exit and spinning for 6k before getting out of it. I jumped my C2 with a friend who got a Freak after putting 80ish jumps on a Raptor, he didn't have any control issues, after about 20 jumps on his Freak I jumped with him and I was like "are you f-ing kidding me?" he was flying it like a turd and I had to collapse everything to stay with him. He also couldn't do anything but fly a decent pattern in it. Big suit does not equal big performance without appropriate experience.

Anyway for whatever it is worth, I think the progression has some "sweet spots." For small suits, after about 50-100 the learning curve flattens out. e.g. someone with 100 jumps on a P3 isn't going to be much worse off than someone with 300 on a P3 going to a Freak.

For mid sized suits the learning curve lasts longer. 100 jumps on a Funk/Havok/Whatever is a lot different that 200.

Once you're in the big suit range with over 100 jumps on them, you should be able to move around without much problem (except maybe some of the monsters like the Sukhoi, haven't jumped one so idk).

So basically, putting more than 100 jumps on a small suit is pointless if you want to upsize. For the mid range, 200+ (on a mid sized suit) would be good before moving to a Freak. Once you put 100+ on a Freak or larger, then you get to make your own assessment and no one can give you better advice than you can give yourself.

For the OP: Yeah man, get an ATC/Havok/Whatever, more jumps on the Swift isn't going to help a lot and skipping the mid range is not smart. You will learn slower on the Freak than you will on something a little smaller because doing new stuff will be hard and scary. You will have 100 jumps on the Freak but your skill level will be less than if you put 100 on something else. It isn't about flat spinning, it is about being comfortable and confident. Basically other people will have to fly with you, rather than you flying with them, and you don't learn fast that way.

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Quote

For small suits, after about 50-100 the learning curve flattens out.



If people had more complete view on fully controlling their suit, and broader goals in terms of practice, small suits can keep one busy and happy for way over 500 jumps, and bring you skills in terms of control that translate to any size suit.
JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

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mccordia

Quote

For small suits, after about 50-100 the learning curve flattens out.



If people had more complete view on fully controlling their suit, and broader goals in terms of practice, small suits can keep one busy and happy for way over 500 jumps, and bring you skills in terms of control that translate to any size suit.



Agreed but with a caveat, it depends on body type. I'm 6' and 220lbs, a P3(edge whatever) as much as I loved it and still say it is the hands down the best first suit, was just like hardcore tracking for me. Great suit to get flying a pattern down, playing with barrel rolls and whatnot, but I really started to be like "ohhhh this is flying" on a Havok. On the P3 I didn't have any range to play with, it was just "rock" and "flat rock." And it was a little too forgiving to really have to feel your feet, great for the first 100, not so much beyond that. I went to a Havok with about 50-60 WS jumps and it was, for me, an awesome learning experience and fun to fly for several hundred jumps.

On that same note, I've seen a few folks put a few hundred on a P3 and had tons of range, but they were 6' and 150lbs. I even know one cheeky bastard that can easily do XRW in a Swift, but he is like 130lbs.

And a second caveat really, for someone who wants to be crazy good and do hardcore acro in a big suit one day when they have a few thousand jumps, sure. But a lot of us are humble fun jumpers that just want to have fun and not be in training mode all the time waiting for when we are 10 years and a few thousand jumps down the road. It is like going to the tunnel, if you want to be a super awesome VFS flyer then your progression and how you spend your tunnel time will be a lot different than if you just want to hold hands with your buddies in a sit. I know a few people into performance flying, they are always "working" and trying to get max speed/glide/time and talking about how they are 5mph faster than their last run after their 6th jump of the day, and I'm just eating my lunch after my first jump like "I don't care man."

Out of curiosity Jarno, what would you say a good (reasonable, not "ideal") progression would be for someone who is not an idiot and doesn't have any major issues from 1st WS through say like 500th?

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