Cypres AAD for Wingsuit

[birdynamnam 28]

http://www.cypres.cc/25/wsc.php

[Anachronist 2]

I applaud them for trying, but I'm going to go out on a limb...

Problems,

Digital altimeters can be easily fooled into "sensing" a deployment during wingsuit flight, flares can now climb and even moderately experienced jumpers can hit vertical speeds of <30 mph for short durations (not to mention the burble effect). The AAD may be triggered into thinking there is a deployment before the jumper spins out and thus is just like having a normal "Pro" setting.

45mph may be insufficient for a large suit in a flat spin. (Previously mentioned incident in Europe last year?, AAD recorded a max speed of 40 or 50 mph) Which is the whole reason for lowering the firing speed.

Audible signal? Really? From a unit packed inside your rig while you're wearing a helmet? How soon after deployment? What if you already triggered it in flight and now you're wondering if it actually worked or you're still at a 45mph limit?

It is a Band-Aid for a bigger problem, no different than setting your AAD to student mode but minus the required conservative canopy flight.

Complete loss of control and inability to get anything out requiring an AAD fire is a nightmare scenario, and in some incidents it has been postulated that the jumper was killed by the impact that rendered them unconscious. Fortunately for non-WS flyers an AAD is somewhat effective, but designing one for WS has special problems. Say you are spinning on your back at 50mph vertical, low speed, high rotation, rigs aren't even designed to get a reserve out like that, current firing altitudes may be (and I'd bet money on) insufficient for reserve extraction and inflation before impact.

I'm not saying this is a bad thing, just unnecessary and insufficient. Likely more of a "the market wants something, so lets give them this and sell some more units."

An AAD is already something very very few jumpers will ever need, and this application is even less likely.

Good luck Cypress, but if you are going to do something, do it right, don't just slap a temporary and probably ineffective "fix" on it. Their software design may be significantly more complicated, but they are not stating that it is.

[Bealio 0]

Anachronist

The AAD may be triggered into thinking there is a deployment before the jumper spins out and thus is just like having a normal "Pro" setting.

So now the jumper is in the same situation they'd be in if they had a regular AAD.

Anachronist

45mph may be insufficient for a large suit in a flat spin.

So now the jumper is in the same situation they'd be in if they had a regular AAD.

Anachronist

What if you already triggered it in flight and now you're wondering if it actually worked or you're still at a 45mph limit?

That's what the audible is for, so you're not wondering.

Anachronist

if you are going to do something, do it right

What would you suggest?

[lyosha 50]

This is a positive development for sure. Don't know if I'd trust it just quite yet, but at least they're thinking, which is good! :)

[Fall0ut 3]

I think it's a bit early for judgement when the new device has not even been developed to the end. Airtec has been known of not releasing anything that has been thought through, so be patient until we know all the details and how it works.

[skydiverek 63]

Anachronist

Audible signal? Really? From a unit packed inside your rig while you're wearing a helmet?

I believe there will be a seperate audible (from Cypres) in your helmet, communicating with the Cypres AAD in your rig.

[SethInMI 164]

skydiverek

I believe there will be a seperate audible (from Cypres) in your helmet, communicating with the Cypres AAD in your rig.

I have not read any details on the audible signals, but just thinking about this it would make the sense to me to have a signal about 300-500 ft above activation altitude that would be friendly sounding if you were NOT in wingsuit mode, and scary sounding if you were.

If you did not hear either tone, that meant you would be best to play it safe and conservative under canopy, and on the ground check the system to see what failed.

It's flare not flair, brakes not breaks, bridle not bridal, "could NOT care less" not "could care less".

[Thijs 0]

skydiverek

***Audible signal? Really? From a unit packed inside your rig while you're wearing a helmet?

I believe there will be a seperate audible (from Cypres) in your helmet, communicating with the Cypres AAD in your rig.
I would actually prefer to have this as a visual signal, vs an audible. Most flyers have one or two audibles already, maybe even a fly sight. Adding another audible signal might be confusing, especially if you would flare out the wingsuit and trigger the cypres to switch to 'canopy mode' at the same time when flying through an audible altitude.
With a visual signal you could first worry about important things after deployment (your heading, keeping clear of traffic, unzipping...) and when that is all done worry about in which mode the Cypres is.

[birdynamnam 28]

We have to assume that the software that will be embedded, is much more advanced, and that it knows about all the things that you correctly described here, plus more... I am sure that test pilots have been recording data from almost any conceivable situation. We will just have to wait to get those details, I would require to learn about them in great detail before ordering a unit...

Current AAD's work very well because they do simple things. This new unit will have to really understand the context that it is used within. I understand the people thinking, would I fly an airplane that is controlled by a Windows PC...Nahh... But think about the complex things that is computerized in Airbus or Boeing airliner today... Sure, it took some trial and errors before that came out well, but the software does handle a myriad of things. The context that the Cypres Wingsuit unit is supposed to know about, is for sure multifaceted, but I would say not that difficult to oversee really. Still, the Cypres AAD is really becoming Cybernetic now...

[mathrick 2]

birdynamnam

We have to assume that the software that will be embedded, is much more advanced, and that it knows about all the things that you correctly described here, plus more... I am sure that test pilots have been recording data from almost any conceivable situation. We will just have to wait to get those details, I would require to learn about them in great detail before ordering a unit...

We don't have to assume anything, there's no reason until Airtec presents any kind of plausible claim that suggests they've done work that would actually make the unit more capable of understanding WS than current AADs. A purple audible is not that. And since it's Cypres, the chances of it happening are close to zero, because Cypres ain't explain shit to the skydiving riff-raff. We're just supposed to pay and ask no questions.

IMHO, it's time people stopped going along with that and tacitly permitting this kind of behaviour. If you're going to sell me a device that will be my last chance at not dying, I want to make damn sure I understand exactly what kind of parameters it looks at and the limits it has. You don't get to go "hush now, it's all proprietary secrets y'see" when it's literally my life on the line if I don't understand exactly the limitations of the device.

"Skydivers are highly emotional people. They get all excited about their magical black box full of mysterious life saving forces."

[birdynamnam 28]

behavior of the unit is kept a "secret" I will not buy it and neither would anyone else. So, I believe that they will describe this in detail. The implementation details inside the unit, how they did it, is their secrets off course and that is as it should be

[Bealio 0]

mathrick

If you're going to sell me a device

You can't buy this AAD

[mathrick 2]

Not yet maybe, because they're still in testing, but I heavily doubt Airtec does that for charity with no plans of selling it.

"Skydivers are highly emotional people. They get all excited about their magical black box full of mysterious life saving forces."

[gowlerk 2,156]

mathrick

Not yet maybe, because they're still in testing, but I heavily doubt Airtec does that for charity with no plans of selling it.

Then why are they bragging about it already?

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[mathrick 2]

It's called marketing. Or are you seriously suggesting Cypres WS is not a commercial endeavour and will be just given away?

"Skydivers are highly emotional people. They get all excited about their magical black box full of mysterious life saving forces."

[gowlerk 2,156]

I am suggesting they should not be bragging about a new product in such vague terms, with no details, and especially with no release date.

A wingsuit specific AAD is a very challenging product to design. It will require many compromises, and if Airtec pulls it off it will be pretty impressive.

But you are right. It's just marketing. I am not a wingsuiter, but even so I do hope that this product becomes real and successful quickly.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[mathrick 2]

I fully agree that they shouldn't, however Airtec has a long history of not actually explaining in any way how their products operate, what changes they made and when, or what limitations the might have, in addition to being wonderfully vague about actual availability of products. It's bullshit enough for ordinary AADs, but becomes completely ridiculous with something as tricky as wingsuiting. Which is why I hope people stop buying into their bullshit and move instead to competition providing better communication.

"Skydivers are highly emotional people. They get all excited about their magical black box full of mysterious life saving forces."

[Pobrause 6]

When I have to choose between the better product and better communication I know where my money goes.
Never been much of a talker anyways

-------------------------------------------------------

To absent friends

[gowlerk 2,156]

Quote

Which is why I hope people stop buying into their bullshit and move instead to competition providing better communication.

I think a lot of that is happening.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[gowlerk 2,156]

Quote

When I have to choose between the better product and better communication I know where my money goes.

It's not hard to have both.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[mathrick 2]

Pobrause

When I have to choose between the better product and better communication I know where my money goes.
Never been much of a talker anyways

Except that communication makes the product. "Don't worry your pretty little head, Cypres is the best" is not a useful attitude when the whole problem is that we're bumping against the limitations of the design, the limitations which can very well cost you your life if you end up on the wrong side. An AAD you don't understand thoroughly is testing your luck, and luck is not the right approach to risk management.

"Skydivers are highly emotional people. They get all excited about their magical black box full of mysterious life saving forces."

[Bealio 0]

mathrick

An AAD you don't understand thoroughly is testing your luck, and luck is not the right approach to risk management.

I just don't understand why you are complaining about a potential problem that doesn't exist. If they offer it for sale and don't provide any information on it, then sure, I'd understand your frustration.

[mathrick 2]

Because they already provide no information on existing AADs, and everything posted by Airtec so far suggests they have every intention of continuing that. Starting with "so is it ready or not?".

"Skydivers are highly emotional people. They get all excited about their magical black box full of mysterious life saving forces."

[Bealio 0]

What don't you understand about current AADs?

[hjumper33 0]

It's this weird thing in a free market where if you don't want to buy something, you don't have to. There is obviously an issue with wingsuit and cypresses (or AADs in general) and they are attempting to address it. If you hate airtec so much.....then don't jump a cypress.