0
Danl-c

Pd Optimum as a main, longevity

Recommended Posts

SionaSioux

***Episcene is the shnizzle for sure. As far as much less expensive canopies, unless youre flying a 120 or under with a large wingsuit (in my experience), a sabre 1 is awesome and will cost you $300-400 US, I think that works out to like 12 Krone. Pilot, or other 7 cells will be great too. Low bulk canopies are great if youre flying wingsuits and have a small container and want a bigger canopy overhead. Keep in mind if you have a 150 ZP in your current container, youll have a 200 sq foot low bulk main. I know a few people who jumped optimums as mains all the time. PD isnt too happy about it and wont sell you one (or at least they wouldnt a few years ago) with a bridle attachment, so youll have to have it modified. I would say 500-1000 depending on treatment is a pretty good bet. Ive seen many base canopies go over 1000 that are the same or similar low bulk material.



I use a stilleto with dacron lines loaded at 1.2. perfect wingsuit canopy; opens sweet whether in full flight or flare and the light loading and dacron means essentially zero line twists in 300+ ws jumps and absolutely zero spins.

I had over 1,600 Stiletto jumps without a cutaway. Right up until I used it with a wingsuit. Two spinning cutaways in 3 weeks convinced me to retire it and get a Spectre 135 instead (Spectre is now also retired and I have a Storm 135)
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
kallend

******Episcene is the shnizzle for sure. As far as much less expensive canopies, unless youre flying a 120 or under with a large wingsuit (in my experience), a sabre 1 is awesome and will cost you $300-400 US, I think that works out to like 12 Krone. Pilot, or other 7 cells will be great too. Low bulk canopies are great if youre flying wingsuits and have a small container and want a bigger canopy overhead. Keep in mind if you have a 150 ZP in your current container, youll have a 200 sq foot low bulk main. I know a few people who jumped optimums as mains all the time. PD isnt too happy about it and wont sell you one (or at least they wouldnt a few years ago) with a bridle attachment, so youll have to have it modified. I would say 500-1000 depending on treatment is a pretty good bet. Ive seen many base canopies go over 1000 that are the same or similar low bulk material.



I use a stilleto with dacron lines loaded at 1.2. perfect wingsuit canopy; opens sweet whether in full flight or flare and the light loading and dacron means essentially zero line twists in 300+ ws jumps and absolutely zero spins.

I had over 1,600 Stiletto jumps without a cutaway. Right up until I used it with a wingsuit. Two spinning cutaways in 3 weeks convinced me to retire it and get a Spectre 135 instead (Spectre is now also retired and I have a Storm 135)


And the wing loading was...

And the type of lines were...
Always remember the danger.

Never forget the fun!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
nickfrey

I'm just gonna assume you meant a Spectre or Safire? AS others have said the Stiletto is a poor choice for wingsuits and I've never seen one with Dacron, but Dacron is pretty common of Spectres...



What's that old saying about "assume..." ?

And baaaaa the way, how many of those "others" have jumped a Stiletto loaded @ 1.2 with Dacron lines?



S
Always remember the danger.

Never forget the fun!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
WickedWingsuits

******Episcene is the shnizzle for sure. As far as much less expensive canopies, unless youre flying a 120 or under with a large wingsuit (in my experience), a sabre 1 is awesome and will cost you $300-400 US, I think that works out to like 12 Krone. Pilot, or other 7 cells will be great too. Low bulk canopies are great if youre flying wingsuits and have a small container and want a bigger canopy overhead. Keep in mind if you have a 150 ZP in your current container, youll have a 200 sq foot low bulk main. I know a few people who jumped optimums as mains all the time. PD isnt too happy about it and wont sell you one (or at least they wouldnt a few years ago) with a bridle attachment, so youll have to have it modified. I would say 500-1000 depending on treatment is a pretty good bet. Ive seen many base canopies go over 1000 that are the same or similar low bulk material.



I use a stilleto with dacron lines loaded at 1.2. perfect wingsuit canopy; opens sweet whether in full flight or flare and the light loading and dacron means essentially zero line twists in 300+ ws jumps and absolutely zero spins.

History tells us that a Stilleto is far from a "perfect wingsuit canopy". 300 openings in one scenario doesn't compare to what we have already learned about it.

I know a guy who had many successful jumps on a Velo with his wingsuit, until he didn't.

And we all know a guy who had many successful jumps with his wingsuit, until he didn't.

Baaaa the way, what does "history" tell you about Stilleto performance when loaded at 1.2 with Dacron lines?
Always remember the danger.

Never forget the fun!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
That jumping elliptical canopies with a wingsuit will eventually end up with you spinning on your back rapidly towards the ground. Even my beloved Lodi, who some people consider kind of the Wild West of skydiving, has a complete ban on wing suiting with an elliptical canopy. But just remember, like all skydivers and base jumpers, that you're different, and it will never happen to you.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
hjumper33

Yup, couldn't agree more. There's a reason they're referred to as a spinetto. There was a while where I thought my crossfire 119 was a perfect wing suit canopy. Diving hard on your back in twists once or twice will teach you otherwise.

Elliptical canopies + wing suits = no Bueno




Crossfire 119? It COULD be a perfect wingsuit canopy if you didn't load it at what -- 1.7?

Seriously, dude, that's like complaining that the 7-0 suture you used on a high-tension skin closure didn't hold.

Ask someone with a clue about canopy performance how different the same parachute acts at 1.2 v 1.7... ellipticle or otherwise.
Always remember the danger.

Never forget the fun!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
WickedWingsuits


How is Daron relevant? They are going to slow the opening down and possibly give you more opportunity for line twists. What is your theory there? I am all ears.




No theory, just facts of basic physics.

Dacron does not slow the opening down so much as smooth it out because it has more give to it.

Dacron is thicker, so it can't wind up as tight as tiny lines. This in turn allows the canopy to balance out even if it is twisted so that it spins slower, if at all.

These attributes reduce the factors that lead to line twists that turn into spinners.

More important than line type though is the wing loading; the higher it is, the more likely any canopy will wind up into a non-recoverable spin.

Again, history and basic physics: The sport did not have spinner problems until people started loading up their canopies and going to microlines of various types.
Always remember the danger.

Never forget the fun!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Each to their own.

I ask you only one favor, the day you do have to chop it, please be honest and report back here. ;)

For anyone else reading this and considering a Stilleto I would advice reading the following. A few things went wrong in this example but the main canopy certainly didn't help.

http://www.dropzone.com/fatalities/Detailed/502.shtml

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3823178
Summer Rental special, 5 weeks for the price of 4! That is $160 a month.

Try before You Buy with Wicked Wingsuits - WingsuitRental.com

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
WickedWingsuits

Each to their own.

I ask you only one favor, the day you do have to chop it, please be honest and report back here. ;)

For anyone else reading this and considering a Stilleto I would advice reading the following. A few things went wrong in this example but the main canopy certainly didn't help.

http://www.dropzone.com/fatalities/Detailed/502.shtml

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3823178



lol, will do, but you'll be old by then.

And is that the best (and ONLY) example you can find?

A guy who probably puled too low then definitely cut away too low?

I rest my case.
Always remember the danger.

Never forget the fun!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I could truly care less what you personally jump, im more concerned with the logic behind the response to the original question of this thread. The OP more of less said, "hey im looking for information on a super doscile 7 cell canopy made of ultralight fabric", to which you replied "Stilettos are awesome!". I wonder why they dont make more elliptical base canopies, those are super low wingloading. Must be tough to be so much smarter than everyone else.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
SionaSioux

***
How is Daron relevant? They are going to slow the opening down and possibly give you more opportunity for line twists. What is your theory there? I am all ears.




No theory, just facts of basic physics.

Dacron does not slow the opening down so much as smooth it out because it has more give to it.

Dacron is thicker, so it can't wind up as tight as tiny lines. This in turn allows the canopy to balance out even if it is twisted so that it spins slower, if at all.

These attributes reduce the factors that lead to line twists that turn into spinners.

More important than line type though is the wing loading; the higher it is, the more likely any canopy will wind up into a non-recoverable spin.

Again, history and basic physics: The sport did not have spinner problems until people started loading up their canopies and going to microlines of various types.

nope Dacron slows the opening its just physics
more surface area creating more friction
BASE 1519

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
hjumper33

I could truly truly couldn't care less what you personally jump, im more concerned with the logic behind the response to the original question of this thread. The OP more of less said, "hey im looking for information on a super doscile 7 cell canopy made of ultralight fabric", to which you replied "Stilettos are awesome!". I wonder why they dont make more elliptical base canopies, those are super low wingloading. Must be tough to be so much smarter than everyone else.



It is, but I manage. How bowchoo, Doc?

I mean, it must be tough to be so much smarter than everyone else that you can "logically" turn "a lightly loaded Stilleto with dacron lines works great for me" into "Stilletos are awesome."

Do you apply that "logic" to patient diagnoses too? I smell a Nobel Prize here.

:o
Always remember the danger.

Never forget the fun!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
SionaSioux

***
How is Daron relevant? They are going to slow the opening down and possibly give you more opportunity for line twists. What is your theory there? I am all ears.




No theory, just facts of basic physics.



Fascinating. Tell me more about untheoretical basic physics.
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Every pull after a wingsuit flight is a potential screw-up. Picking a canopy to use for WS is a balance between what is "safe" and what is "fun". I think the key is to realize a Petra 69 isn't a good wingsuit choice, yet it's possible to stay relatively safe without going all in on the other side of the spectrum and jump a reserve either.

The more sensitive a canopy is to harness input, the more prone it will be to put you in a situation where you are flying on your back with linetwists all the way to your neck, with a spinning, diving canopy. Wing-load, length of lines and plan-form will all contribute.

Preferably you should use a canopy where you can just focus on unzipping your suit if you end up in a line-twist, while the canopy keeps flying straight, a situation where you can more or less do nothing, and then canopy and gravity will untwist you, without any struggle.

I've done roughly 200 wingsuit jumps under a katana 135 without problems, but I don't recommend it. I ended up using my old PDF Electra 150 as main in my new wingsuit configuration since I had a strong gut-feeling I wouldn't be in charge of the canopy in my bigger suit if shit hit the fan.

Although the Electra might be a bit elliptical in shape I prefer it over any other canopy out there due to it's flight characteristics. Short snivel, distinct opening , flat flight, predictable and smooth recovery and not very sensitive to harness input, hence not prone to go diving when in a line twist made it a good choice for me. The fact I paid less then 250$ (risers included) was also a contributing factor. ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
A demo PD optimum I jumped had around 400 jumps. The PD rep said that it was at the end of its lifespan. So 400/500 seems to be the timing, similar to some of the lightweight f111 canopies out there. Though I loved the openings, in terms of glide its not really going anywhere.

Now on a ZP WinX and loving it..
JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
kallend

******
How is Daron relevant? They are going to slow the opening down and possibly give you more opportunity for line twists. What is your theory there? I am all ears.




No theory, just facts of basic physics.



Quantum or Newtonian?

Fascinating. Tell me more about untheoretical basic physics.
Always remember the danger.

Never forget the fun!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Right on. That does sound about right. My options are pretty limited here since neither the Epicene or WinX are legal to fly here in Norway. I am looking for something LPV so I can more fabric above my head. Looks like I can either order a Pilot7 or petition the Norwegian Federation to accept the Epicene and WinX. I think I am going to petition.

I appreciate the advice from everyone. Even though it did get a bit side tracked.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Danl-c

Right on. That does sound about right. My options are pretty limited here since neither the Epicene or WinX are legal to fly here in Norway. I am looking for something LPV so I can more fabric above my head. Looks like I can either order a Pilot7 or petition the Norwegian Federation to accept the Epicene and WinX. I think I am going to petition.

I appreciate the advice from everyone. Even though it did get a bit side tracked.



The Pilot7 wouldn't be a wrong choice by a long way. I really enjoy it and I witnessed a lot of wingsuiters demo it at Flock n Dock and heard great things.

For the record, I have a sponsored Pilot7 but I like it so much I purchased a second for my other rig.
Summer Rental special, 5 weeks for the price of 4! That is $160 a month.

Try before You Buy with Wicked Wingsuits - WingsuitRental.com

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
mccordia

A demo PD optimum I jumped had around 400 jumps. The PD rep said that it was at the end of its lifespan. So 400/500 seems to be the timing, similar to some of the lightweight f111 canopies out there. Though I loved the openings, in terms of glide its not really going anywhere.

Now on a ZP WinX and loving it..



Last time PD was in town their rep said the optimum I wanted to demo (but didn't get to... grumble grumble) had > 1000 jumps on it. What I was told is that porosity deterioration slows down to a crawl after 500 jumps.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

0