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normiss

New USPA Wingsuit BSR & Recommendation

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Though the rule for sure is harsh, Ive seen several videos of flybys from people with low experience who I wouldnt want anywhere near tandem or aff jumps of friends or familiy of mine.

As much as we might not like it, I do feel some people need the rules to keep what they do a bit in the realm of responsible and safe. Most of us think we're further and better in terms of experience, skills and accuracy in our flying than we really are due to the suit we wear. Scaring people we should not be scaring. For sure, the majority is safe, but a few low pulling, unsuspecting tandem buzzing, out landing cowboys can do a lot of damage.
Which can lead to a certain public image of being irresponsible, with the new rules as a (be it perhaps panic/kneejerk) response.

I don't like it, but I don't blame them..
JC
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jonmurrell

I'm sure you've heard of (or even remember) the days where only one of the fancy "ram-air" canopies was allowed per pass or load... we can't have people flying wherever they want after all.

The USPA needs to expand this rule to cover all jumpers in freefall and/or under canopy to prevent collisions.




If you believe that you should make a formal proposal. You seem to be having a hard time distinguishing between risk that is accepted because it is necessary for the task at hand. And risk that is gratuitous and has little or no benefit to the student being put at risk.

But to answer the first part of your post. I have not heard of a time when only one ram air canopy was allowed on a load. If it actually happened it was never a BSR and it was only for a brief period while things were being figured out.
Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

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Though the rule for sure is harsh,



The rule is not harsh. Flybys are allowed with pre-planning and between experienced jumpers. Stay away from students. That is not harsh at all.
Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

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I do think its harsh, not in the rule itself, but in the way it's written, as it will create more trouble for us than intended.

I've been on dropzones where there are half a dozen tandems on a load, spread so far left/right of jumprun, that its impossible to not pass at +-1000 ft of them to make it back to the dropzone (already passing way, way, way offset/outside of jumprun).

And Ive seen those '1000 ft away' be explained shouting by a TM as 'he was 20 ft away' to the DZO. Luckely video usually proves the wingsuit pilot right, and not being unsafe or in any way aiming for a flyby. But with this new rule, 1000ft would be classified as 'within 500ft' quite rapid by many TMs and DZO's, leading to trouble and repercussions in situations where there was no actual safety issue.

I think it's a good rule, but also think the way it's writen can lead to abuse...
JC
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It's written poorly because it was written by people who don't fly wingsuits, don't do flybys, and don't feel like doing their homework.

They could have easily accomplished the same objective by making it 100 feet, and only by jumpers with 500+ wingsuit jumps, and only with the express permission of everyone involved. DZO, WS pilot, tandem instructor, tandem student. Done. Everyone is happy.

But there appears to be a loud minority yelling in these forums against flybys. Most TIs I've spoken to in person think it's a sh*t rule.
Apex BASE
#1816

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I wonder how this ruling would fair in a vote by all USPA members, as opposed to an executive order hastily handed down from the top.

If it makes so much sense why not at least poll the membership? Should be a layup, right guys?
Apex BASE
#1816

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Bluhdow

I wonder how this ruling would fair in a vote by all USPA members, as opposed to an executive order hastily handed down from the top.

If it makes so much sense why not at least poll the membership? Should be a layup, right guys?




When was the last time a BSR was subjected to a membership vote? Never? Not that it matters. It would indeed be a layup.
Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

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Bluhdow

It's written poorly because it was written by people who don't fly wingsuits, don't do flybys, and don't feel like doing their homework.



Exactly.

Not only is the 500' condition unmeasurable with any existing technology, they didn't even get the words consistent with FAR Part 105. The person hanging on the front of a tandem is the "passenger parachutist", not a "tandem student".

The road to Hell is paved with good intentions.
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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The road to Hell is paved with good intentions.




Surely John, you don't believe the wrath of the Bird People will bring down judgement day.
Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

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Meh... as a TI I don't mind the rule. I don't have a problem with people I know doing pre-planned, reasonable distance fly-by's.... but there have been enough sketchy non-planned ones out there for the USPA to have to do something, even if it is to cover their ass.

I always love how skydivers turn into sky-lawyers whenever a new rule they don't like comes around. We get it - nobody will know if it was 501' or 499'. Just keep it around that distance and nobody will give a shit. Or do it anyway (with TI's approval) and don't film/post it.

Personally, I don't like tandem flyby's because plenty of wingusiters I know suck at skydiving yet somehow grow huge balls when they put on a wingsuit. I don't need those guys aiming at me when I am not expecting it. Not for $30 bucks!
BASE 1384

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Halfpastniner



I always love how skydivers turn into sky-lawyers whenever a new rule they don't like comes around.



The rule is very poorly written. Poorly written rules lead to problems. You gain nothing by name-calling the people who point this out.
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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In fairness that rule was more of a DZO policy, although it was more widespread than you'd think.

My post was satirical in part. Acceptable risk is a relative, subjective idea and it's fairly ridiculous to try to quantify or regulate it beyond broad terms. We burn jet-a and put hours on aging air-frames solely to enjoy jumping from them, gratuitous much?

I agree that many people overestimate their skills and that students should be sheltered from idiots to a degree. DZOs have handled that responsibility well for the most part. If I upset a TI with my 501' flyby and he complains to the DZO, will my recording demonstrating my legally required distance prevent me from being grounded? Probably not. Does every student jump with flotation equipment? Probably not. Will this BSR demonstrably change or create anything other than grumbles from the peanut gallery? Probably not.

Highly specific, poorly written, unenforceable policies. That's an example of bureaucracy in action, but that's another rant.
This isn't flying, its falling with style.

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normiss

Thoughts?


"At its most recent meeting in late February, the USPA Board of Directors approved a new Basic Safety Requirement regarding wingsuit flight close to solo and tandem students: "Wingsuit flight within 500 feet vertically or horizontally of any student, including tandem students, is prohibited."

Additionally, the board added the following recommendation to the Skydiver's Information Manual: "Wingsuit flight within 500 feet vertically or horizontally of any licensed skydiver under canopy requires prior planning and agreement between the canopy pilot and wingsuit pilot."

Both the new BSR and recommendation are effective immediately."



Is the recommendation regarding wingsuit flight closer than 500 feet to a licensed canopy pilots posted anywhere on the USPA site?
Instructor quote, “What's weird is that you're older than my dad!”

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Woah, this thread is still alive :o

I've found that wingsuiting with tandems can be significantly improved by talking with them as simple as "Where/how are you landing?" "Ok I'll stay out of your way." And then after a jump "Hey man was that OK?" even if you know it was ok. Just tipping the hat to them and showing them you aren't an arse goes a long way. Probably not the case at a lot of DZs though.

Also this, as it pertains to the SIM...

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