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Fall0ut

Pulling from full flight - interesting article

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Here's an interesting article published by Matt Gerdes about pulling in an WS.
http://www.base-book.com/some-thoughts-on-wingsuit-openings

He does have a point. After 300 jumps with collapsing my legwing in all kinds of suits like being taught in the FFC, I will try to switch to this method.. hopefully without too many hard openings during the transition :ph34r:

For coaching students, I still think it's easier and less stressful for a first timer to collapse his legwing to prevent getting wobbly when moving in both arms to the container and getting a hard opening.

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In addition, after a WS fatality:

"This was posted (by Walter who witnessed the jump) on the BFL today...
UPDATE PLEASE RE-READ.
After three weeks of thoughts and discussions of all involved friends we think we should say this about the accident:

As we don’t have a video from Ulli at the exit point and of his flight we must reconfigure this just by personal views and puzzling.
I personally had been present, had already landed and watched Ullis last flight from the ground.

Just for the record:
It was the forth jump of the day.
Ulli jumped always without gloves and as usual he collapsed his leg wing to a certain degree before he pulled.

According to what I saw we tried to simulate and rehearse the situation on the ground with the same container and suit.

Our conclusion:
With especially the leg wing collapsed by tighter and slightly bent knees there is excess fabric that can move in front of the BOC. When all the forward speed is gone, there is also a trapdoor effect. By this the body is going more downwards and the resulting airstream presses the fabric against the container with additional force, making it even harder to find a PC handle if it is behind it.
With a normal pull, with inflated and stretched leg wing there is no difficulty to reach the BOC/PC.

With the outcome in mind we therefore would like to advise everybody (even if it is common sense to most of us now) not to collapse the wings, neither arm nor leg, on any wingsuit anymore before initiating the pull (like someone may have learnt it at the beginning). Plus that the pull hand should always be intentionally above the arm wing at the pull move by acting clearly over the wing towards the BOC/PC handle. That way no one has to sort through fabric even if the wingtips are released before the pull move is initiated.

The lesson learned from this accident is, that a wingsuit pull is a complex move and should be done out of an “open” flight configuration with a straight and wide leg position, just folding the arm wing with the pull move as needed.
Of course the flight could be slowed down by flaring the suit a bit just before the pull move itself. But at no time the flight should be slowed down before the pull by collapsing the wings or even stalling the suit.

Then, after the PC is thrown with power and dynamic sideways to avoid the big low pressured burbled space behind the wing, everybody is free again to collapse the wings, bend the knees or decrease arms.

Should there occur an increased opening shock of the canopy, the solution should be searched in better wing collapsing instantly after the pull but at no time before reaching or throwing the PC handle.

Finally there is to state that at no time in this accident there was any evidence pointing towards suit or gear failure."

He will be missed while his spirit does fly on with us..."

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How many fatals have there been skydiving from pulling after collapsing wings? Symmetry I would hope was a given taught from day one as it is critical. However I wont be teaching new students to pull in full flight it opens far more issues up with head down deployments as the shut of upper wings with leg wing open. As for losing 1000ft what are these people doing? Taking 10 secs to deploy. So your flying a large or medium suit typically at 30-45mph and you collapse you wings as you pull. Basic acceleration does not lose you 1000ft umless you are seriously pissing about with your BOC. Maybe 200ft but not a 1000ft unless your reading a book mid deployment 45mph back to terminal takes 5-8seconds. Carrying your momentum and AoA will continue for the 1-2 seconds you deploy. If you are hurtling down mountainsides in stream beds and dodging trees then I am sure every foot you recover at pre deployment climbout and flare are critical however this is avery different environment to skydiving. That said it makes sense to develop these skills if your end goal is ultimately BASE however I dont see many pre training jumpers using F111 7 cells. Most are flying 9 cell zp and are still mixing up there jumps.
Dont just talk about it, Do it!

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radical_flyer

Why shouldn't you deploy in a stall?



I have experience with this and I saw my PC and Bridle go in front of my face as the suit stalled. Not something I want to see again!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vijEBBnkcwM

This was a case of upsizing to an Apache Class soon too quickly and not appreciating the power of the flair, amongst other things.
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Could this also happen. I'm sure this guy deployed in the correct flight mode, more likely caused by a small canopy having a short lineset.

Off topic: do any USPA dropzones enforce the recommendation to have 200 jumps within the last 18 months to start wingsuiting? Under the BPA it's a requirement, which if not met you need 500.

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I thought uspa was 200 total, no mention of the 18 months.
We have the same rules though in my country.

I think the article was focused more on people looking to get into BASE. I chatted to my coach about this and he said for people interested he would only recommend it after 50 jumps or so.

I plan to try it out, 200-400ft extra to deal with possible malfunctions can't hurt. As long as it does start inducing problems like off headings.

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I find the part about reaching for the riser very tricky.
I only fly a small P3 yet there is no way in hell for me to do anything good with the risers unless I unzip the wings completely, maybe because I'm short already.
Which is a good thing I remembered when I found myself under a reserve... at 800ft... over a warehouse... with a stuck zipper.
I didn't even try, and Thank God for those quick cutaway attachments!
I'm standing on the edge
With a vision in my head
My body screams release me
My dreams they must be fed... You're in flight.

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Di0

I find the part about reaching for the riser very tricky.
I only fly a small P3 yet there is no way in hell for me to do anything good with the risers unless I unzip the wings completely, maybe because I'm short already.
Which is a good thing I remembered when I found myself under a reserve... at 800ft... over a warehouse... with a stuck zipper.
I didn't even try, and Thank God for those quick cutaway attachments!



I was at a bigway camp and we were told to get control of our heading before unzipping. "Right", I thought. But with some practice I can now get hold of my risers during the snivel, both with my Rbird and my X2.
Instructor quote, “What's weird is that you're older than my dad!”

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In skydiving it's pretty important to do a decent wave off.

If you're pulling directly from full flight then it's hard to see how this can be achieved unless you're waving off and then going back to full flight to deploy. Personally, i find it easier to do the wave off and stay partially collapsed and then pull. Others may do it differently.

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It's a good point. You can wave off by wiggling your feet but that does rely on others in your group knowing what it means. In very advanced suits this is a common technique because the approach we teach in FFC doesn't work with a big inflated leg wing.

As a rule it isn't smart to be above and behind a wingsuiter you don't know after break off for this reason, not everyone gives a wave off!
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JackJ

waving off and then going back to full flight to deploy.



That's what I do.

For a beginner in a small suit I don't really think there's much reason to pull from full flight in skydiving.
But if you can do it, you might as well.

Just generally it's good to try different things - packing, exits, deployment... might as well try and learn something while you're up there. :)

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Quote



For a beginner in a small suit I don't really think there's much reason to pull from full flight in skydiving.
But if you can do it, you might as well.



right as I understand the WS-world ...

I suppose some of you missed the point of the starting question.
Or I do ..
Why pull at full flight?

As my friend Ulli died in that accident in Italy, the conclusion was that the fabric of that wingsuit was wrapping around his PC-handle.
this happend due to the collapsed wings and made it impossible for him to pull. He tried to find the PC handle and impacted.

I guess (as I have only very few WS jumps) that with a smaller WS, that would not have happend.
Also it would not have happend in that way if he had pulled in full flight (we think ..).
As that was a BASEjump, he had no chance to go for silver.

So for me, with bigger wings you should consider a different way of pulling and be aware what kind of burbles (PC hesitations, etc. ..) or highspeed stalls of canopies or even WS-stalls may mean to you.
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pigs just fly well

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Hajo

Quote



For a beginner in a small suit I don't really think there's much reason to pull from full flight in skydiving.
But if you can do it, you might as well.



right as I understand the WS-world ...

I suppose some of you missed the point of the starting question.
Or I do ..
Why pull at full flight?

As my friend Ulli died in that accident in Italy, the conclusion was that the fabric of that wingsuit was wrapping around his PC-handle.
this happend due to the collapsed wings and made it impossible for him to pull. He tried to find the PC handle and impacted.

I guess (as I have only very few WS jumps) that with a smaller WS, that would not have happend.
Also it would not have happend in that way if he had pulled in full flight (we think ..).
As that was a BASEjump, he had no chance to go for silver.

So for me, with bigger wings you should consider a different way of pulling and be aware what kind of burbles (PC hesitations, etc. ..) or highspeed stalls of canopies or even WS-stalls may mean to you.



Sorry to read about your friend.

I agree with you, and with what the article says. Reasons for pulling in full flight are:

- to conserve altitude (important in BASE)
- for cleaner deployments (important for big suits)
- regarding your friend, from what was written it seems that pulling in full flight would have enabled better access to the BOC

It's just not so important for skydiving small suits. I think it's a good idea - just not important in that situation.

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Hajo

Quote



For a beginner in a small suit I don't really think there's much reason to pull from full flight in skydiving.
But if you can do it, you might as well.



right as I understand the WS-world ...

I suppose some of you missed the point of the starting question.
Or I do ..
Why pull at full flight?

As my friend Ulli died in that accident in Italy, the conclusion was that the fabric of that wingsuit was wrapping around his PC-handle.
this happend due to the collapsed wings and made it impossible for him to pull. He tried to find the PC handle and impacted.

I guess (as I have only very few WS jumps) that with a smaller WS, that would not have happend.
Also it would not have happend in that way if he had pulled in full flight (we think ..).
As that was a BASEjump, he had no chance to go for silver.

So for me, with bigger wings you should consider a different way of pulling and be aware what kind of burbles (PC hesitations, etc. ..) or highspeed stalls of canopies or even WS-stalls may mean to you.



I don't do BASE but missing your pull on a BASE jump is the stuff that nightmares are made of. Sorry about your friend.

For the most part I tend to fold up a bit but lately have been playing some with pitching more in full flight. It seems I get a lot more snivel pitching in full flight. I have missed my pull a couple of times doing that in my X2. It really drives home the notion of keeping a cool head and proper procedures.
Instructor quote, “What's weird is that you're older than my dad!”

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dthames


I was at a bigway camp and we were told to get control of our heading before unzipping. "Right", I thought. But with some practice I can now get hold of my risers during the snivel, both with my Rbird and my X2.



DHemer

I cant reach toggles on my P3 without unzipping but I can get my risers just above the 3 rings.

Its enough to correct an off heading and deal with 1-2 line twists. lifting your knees upwards helps



Mh.. I guess I'll make a mental note to try again next weekend then.
It's good to have extra control options at all phases of flight.
I'll try to see if lifting the knees makes any difference: it actually should!
Thanks, guys!
I'm standing on the edge
With a vision in my head
My body screams release me
My dreams they must be fed... You're in flight.

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Di0

***
I was at a bigway camp and we were told to get control of our heading before unzipping. "Right", I thought. But with some practice I can now get hold of my risers during the snivel, both with my Rbird and my X2.



DHemer

I cant reach toggles on my P3 without unzipping but I can get my risers just above the 3 rings.

Its enough to correct an off heading and deal with 1-2 line twists. lifting your knees upwards helps



Mh.. I guess I'll make a mental note to try again next weekend then.
It's good to have extra control options at all phases of flight.
I'll try to see if lifting the knees makes any difference: it actually should!
Thanks, guys!

About reaching up while zipped, it also seems to help to keep your hands, wrists, and elbows close to your body. Sort of like trying to reach up if you were inside a tube about the diameter of your shoulders, and shrugging your shoulders up, all at the same time. You should be able to catch your rears just above your head.
Instructor quote, “What's weird is that you're older than my dad!”

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