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keithbar

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I agree it is unlikly on a PF suit but its not impossible

I rigged my suit up and you can force the handles into the armwing. Maybe through lots of movement or a rig against your chest.

Took these photos for a discussion on Reddit with some confused non wingsuiters. http://imgur.com/gallery/EtXEt/new

The main focus on that discussion is the skydiver not using an RSL. Im happy to deal with possible reserve line twists over an AAD fire personally

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I'm a big fan of the spectra replacement of the pull tabs on the zippers. Easy way to solve the zippers moving issue on any suit, and makes changing suits maybe a slight bit harder, but still much easier than the lace up systems of yor. Pictures and description on the squirrel website for those who don't know what I'm talking about.

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Quote

I'm a big fan of the spectra replacement of the pull tabs on the zippers. Easy way to solve the zippers moving issue on any suit,



Thats actually not what the issue is. The problem is the zipper riding through the sliders when bending, creating a big hole. Even with a set distance on both zippers, the actual suit rides through them when bending forward.
The only way to solve this problem, is by actually sewing the bottom zipper in place (once at the set distance for your rig). But all 'solutions' that just lock zippers in place, relative to eachother, doesnt really fix anything.

On big suits, checking before exit is a way. Though far from ideal. But on any suit where one does any kind of acrobatics, rolls or other moves that lead to bending or twisting of bodies, the innie-outie system is a big risk. As I see a lot in the plane at various DZs as well, and what happens after exit nobody controls. On smaller suits, the system is also of no real use.

Ideally we'd go back to the full cable system, but sadly this is not something anyone would be interested in due to the added rigging time. Funny how our need to be quick has dictated safety in such a huge way...;)
JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

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Just to clarify, the spectra thing he is talking about does immobilize the sliders. Squirrel (not sure who else does or doesn't) uses locking sliders, replacing the pull tab with spectra locks them in place unless you pull on the spectra. Basically they are so sensitive that any motion of the metal pull tab will disengage them, the spectra is less inclined to. They are also directional, they only prevent unzipping. A mediocre "fix/improvement" in my book.

https://squirrel.ws/public/Squirrel_Innie_Outie_System.pdf

Starts on page 4.

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mccordia

Ideally we'd go back to the full cable system,



Completely agree. The last two suits I bought - both new suits, bought within the last nine months - have cable systems, and I don't have to worry about doing a Picard maneuver, adding a carabiner, adding strings, pulleys, or any kind of weird shit from Home Depot to jump my wingsuit... It just works.

mccordia

but sadly this is not something anyone would be interested in due to the added rigging time. Funny how our need to be quick has dictated safety in such a huge way...;)



That's the part that amuses me - it doesn't take more time to switch rigs with an innie-outie system vs. a cable system, when you think about the process as a whole.

I have two rigs and have done the switch with both innie-outie and cable systems a bunch of times.

Yes, lacing up a wing takes a few minutes.

But when you consider the amount of time you need to do the innie-outie system right - meaning you have to fuck around with zippers and carabiners and spectra lines and all that stuff, I'm already in the loading area with my cable system masturbating furiously (so, you know, standard behaviour) by the time you have your gear on. There's no time savings.
Skwrl Productions - Wingsuit Photography

Northeast Bird School - Chief Logistics Guy and Video Dork

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The spectra line thing takes probably 5 minutes to set up, and then you just treat it as a completely normal zipper pull from then on. When it's set it functions basically the exact same as the beloved lace up system, an immobile hole the size and location of your choosing. I'm not sure why people think this is bad in some way or are resistant to doing it. I'll even send you the line for free. Do people just want to continue debating if the innie outie is better or not? Rabble rabble rabble...

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If you can fully hook up a lace up suit in the time it takes me to zip on mine, I'd even set you up with a real live girl to have sex with so you wouldn't have to publically masturbate so furiously. Seriously, just try this method, it'll change your life, just like the flashlight did.

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I've tried the approach. My point is that it's not faster and adds additional risk. Sorry if this isn't the response you wanted. Cable is a better design because, well, why add additional complications when you're skydiving?

And let me be clear - this isn't a brand war thing. This is a design thing. I'd pay $100 extra to buy a wingsuit from some manufacturers who insist on innie-outie if they offered a cable system. And I've told them that. I just think the design can be a bad idea, particularly on some body shapes, particularly on some rigs.
Skwrl Productions - Wingsuit Photography

Northeast Bird School - Chief Logistics Guy and Video Dork

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hjumper33

Do people just want to continue debating if the innie outie is better or not? Rabble rabble rabble...



Yeah, because of shit like this I saw this weekend. I guess I do. This was not staged. This was a guy walking out to the loading area. He had one of those S carabiners behind it.
Skwrl Productions - Wingsuit Photography

Northeast Bird School - Chief Logistics Guy and Video Dork

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My point is using the modification makes it neither take more time, nor ad more risk. No argument from me about which brand to use it on or that the current system like your picture isn't ideal and can have the potential to swallow handles. It's pretty obvious that a shit ton of people have these suits, and I don't think they're going to sell them or have a rigger replace the zippers with tabs any time soon. If anyone else thinks of a better way to solve the problem let me know, but I'd consider this method a significantly safer alternative than nothing.

If I said I had a ford, and it's broken and needs to be fixed, telling me that the manufacturer should have built it a different way or telling me to buy a Chevy doesn't exactly change my immediate problem.

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hjumper33

If I said I had a ford, and it's broken and needs to be fixed, telling me that the manufacturer should have built it a different way or telling me to buy a Chevy doesn't exactly change my immediate problem.



Oh, right. In that regard, we're in total agreement. If you have an innie-outie design suit, you should be hyper-vigilent about it and adopt some sort of solution for it. And then make sure your solution works for your particular set up. Absolutely.

To use your analogy, our response, as a community, ought to be: "Hey Ford, on your next year's model, how about fixing this fucked up thing, so I can keep buying Ford!" as opposed to saying "Oh, well... Hey Ford drivers, you just need to add some duct tape in various places and it should be OK, but keep an eye on it. It probably won't Pinto on you. Probably."

Edited to explain this for our friends outside the US: http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/a6700/top-automotive-engineering-failures-ford-pinto-fuel-tanks/
Skwrl Productions - Wingsuit Photography

Northeast Bird School - Chief Logistics Guy and Video Dork

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If I want to continue this into brand wars it would be more like hey tesla, this geo metro works just fine, why would we want to improve and try something different? Squirrel has said they will do this mod for anyone that wants it, so I'm sure It would be plenty easy to get it done before you even get your new suit.

If anyone using this fix having any issues or negative things to say at all?

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hjumper33

If I want to continue this into brand wars it would be more like hey tesla, this geo metro works just fine, why would we want to improve and try something different?



Again, it's not a brand war thing. It's a design thing. I'm raising concerns about an "improvement" that might have flaws.

hjumper33

Squirrel



... isn't the only manufacturer that uses the design or has it as an option. Notice I never mentioned any brand names in anything I wrote?

Obvious example is obvious: the guy in the video wasn't flying a Squirrel suit.

You keep wanting to make it a brand war thing so you can write off what I'm saying as just brand war noise, but it's not. It's a concern about one possible design that is now very common in wingsuits made by several manufacturers.

You Cult of Squirrel guys are adorable. ;)

hjumper33

Squirrel has said they will do this mod for anyone that wants it



"This mod" meaning a cable system? Or the Spectra system you're talking about? If it's a cable system, that's great; I'll have it put on my next purchase.

hjumper33

If anyone using this fix having any issues or negative things to say at all?



I guess we'll see. I hope not; we didn't hear of issues with innie-outie at first, either.
Skwrl Productions - Wingsuit Photography

Northeast Bird School - Chief Logistics Guy and Video Dork

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This guy's hard on for his locking zippers is making me awful tempted to give it a try :D

The issue I see though is that you're potentially putting a lot of force on just a few teeth, over and over and over. Which could break them, cause the lock to fail, make the whole zipper in need of repair.

The locking mechanism (at least what can be seen) is also thinner than a paperclip, and I'm pretty confident it isn't made from tool steel, so again, putting a lot of force on a probably kinda flimsy mechanism.

I've seen plenty of zippers (sliders, teeth, pull tabs) break on jumpsuits and a couple on wingsuits, so my confidence in there structural integrity under stress has been reduced.

There is also the sensitivity of the locking mechanism, just the slightest little tug on the spectra and the lock disengages.

All of those are why I consider it a "mediocre fix/improvement."

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Skwrl



***Squirrel has said they will do this mod for anyone that wants it



"This mod" meaning a cable system? Or the Spectra system you're talking about? If it's a cable system, that's great; I'll have it put on my next purchase.

He means nipping the pull tabs off and putting some line on the sliders. For people completely devoid of any mechanical inclination I guess.

I think you're right, he has a hard on for Squirrel and a bit of personal experience bias. "This worked for me so it is perfect for everyone and can't fail" kind of thing.

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So here are some photos of my Havok hooked up and on. I apologize for the quality, I have a crappy phone, but you get the idea. It is very hard to get my handles anywhere near the hole in any position. When I sat down I tried with both hands to force the reserve handle into the hole (in every way possible, pulling on the suit, the harness, and the handle) and could only get the bottom corner to go in, it was still easy to grab and when I stood up it popped out. This to me is about as non-handle swallowing as you can ask for. (I recognize no two suits, rigs, or people fit exactly the same.)

Crouching like an exit
http://postimg.org/image/kcauc53i1/full/

Sitting 1
http://postimg.org/image/pdi8diayh/full/

Sitting 2
http://postimg.org/image/7yy058dtl/full/

Standing 1
http://postimg.org/image/of1vb7xmh/full/

Standing 2
http://s12.postimg.org/yb2yav3el/Standing_2.jpg

Tried to shove the handle in with both hands while sitting
http://s12.postimg.org/y9t0hg1kt/Tried_to_shove_it_in_the_hole.jpg

That said, I have seen first hand a Ghost's over the shoulder zipper fail in flight at the front (where the start is) and run completely to the back (where the stop is). I've also heard of it happening to others. In the one I saw, it was on the right arm and the pilot was able to pitch without a huge problem, but it was sketchy, on a very large suit it would be infinitely more sketch. Why this happens I'm not sure, I just wanted to point out that even this system is not "perfect."

I would be ok with an over the shoulder cable system but yeah, those cables that go all the way up the wing are a pain.

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I lurve my Havoc (full disclosure, bought second hand, initially built for someone with more of a gut than me)


...but on a plane ride up a couple of weeks ago I noticed it ate half of my cutaway handle. Which surprised the shit out of me. More surprising was I couldn't get the fucker out. It was literally jammed. I couldn't force it further in, I couldn't force it further out. I had to unzip my fucking suit in the airplane at 10k and wiggle the fucker out.

To date I have no idea how that handle made its way into that hole. It took a ton of effort to get it to move in it...

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Skwrl

To use your analogy, our response, as a community, ought to be: "Hey Ford, on your next year's model, how about fixing this fucked up thing, so I can keep buying Ford!" as opposed to saying "Oh, well... Hey Ford drivers, you just need to add some duct tape in various places and it should be OK, but keep an eye on it. It probably won't Pinto on you. Probably."



Or in this case: "We'll add the duct tape for you!"
www.WingsuitPhotos.com

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hjumper33

Ok we've established you guys dont like this idea. So the better solution for the 98% of wingsuits out there right now that have zippers is.... to stop flying them and demand that companies start using the old laceup method again. Perfect, well done internet.



It would be really cool if the option were offered. That is all...

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hjumper33

Ok we've established you guys dont like this idea. So the better solution for the 98% of wingsuits out there right now that have zippers is.... to stop flying them and demand that companies start using the old laceup method again. Perfect, well done internet.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma

No. But it would be nice if cable systems were an option on more suits and if the hazards of the design were taken into account by more people.

Missed Lyosha's response. So I'll just +1 that.
Skwrl Productions - Wingsuit Photography

Northeast Bird School - Chief Logistics Guy and Video Dork

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lyosha

I lurve my Havoc (full disclosure, bought second hand, initially built for someone with more of a gut than me)


...but on a plane ride up a couple of weeks ago I noticed it ate half of my cutaway handle. Which surprised the shit out of me. More surprising was I couldn't get the fucker out. It was literally jammed. I couldn't force it further in, I couldn't force it further out. I had to unzip my fucking suit in the airplane at 10k and wiggle the fucker out.

To date I have no idea how that handle made its way into that hole. It took a ton of effort to get it to move in it...



This is a good point, same suit, different fit (mine is a smidge snug) and you get a completely different handle situation.

Must suck for the designers "we made this one PERFECT!" someone else tries it on "oh wait... nevermind" [:/]

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