Wingsuit Flare/Deployment

[Anachronist 2]

So I've been trying to improve my flare prior to deployment (no BASE). I seem to be able to bleed off a good bit of speed but don't have anywhere near the pitch up rotation that I've seen from some folks (which I associate with deceleration and a better d-bag extraction angle), my deployments are at best 30 degrees from horizontal. Any suggestions? WS is a Havok, my method has been speed up a little, press arms down hard then dig in a little with my knees. Any tips? Thanks in advance.

[The111 0]

What exactly is your goal?

A flare is a dynamic slowdown nearing a stall, where stability is harder to control.

"Bleeding off forward speed" can be done in many ways other than flaring. If you want to just bleed off forward speed for a more vertical pull sequence, then you can slow down progressively rather than throwing an aggressive dynamic flare.

In either case, "speeding up a little" will always be counterproductive if your end goal is to slow down. That speedup may help you decrease your fallrate but overall you will still be going faster.

So again, what is the goal?

Slow overall speed on deployment?
Or simply slow vertical speed on deployment?
Or (my favorite) high vertical speed, slow forward speed, i.e. the classic sinkout. Great for soft openings, 1 out of 1 heavily loaded necks agree.

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[Anachronist 2]

I'm basically looking for soft and slow. As close to a hop and pop as can be accomplished.

I would say slow overall speed, I've tried sinking out and while it improved the angle, didn't do much for softening the opening.

This is a good example of what I'm trying to do I suppose (minus the line twists). Start at 3:00.

https://vimeo.com/123245477

[dthames 0]

Anachronist

I'm basically looking for soft and slow. As close to a hop and pop as can be accomplished.

I would say slow overall speed, I've tried sinking out and while it improved the angle, didn't do much for softening the opening.

This is a good example of what I'm trying to do I suppose (minus the line twists). Start at 3:00.

https://vimeo.com/123245477

Your reason to do this might be something that I don't know or understand. But I am a keep it simple type of person regarding WS deployment. My "opinion" is that a person should not get into the habit of using time and altitude to set up for deployment. Make sure you are flying well and deploy without a lot of time has, advantages when something has not went well. You don't want to have a missed pull or some other issue and think, "Wait, I need to get flying again and set up for deployment again but I am already at 2500 feet"!

As Matt mentions some actions might be counterproductive if you want to deploy at slow airspeed. You total airspeed being low is what you suggest that you want.

You have a fixed amount of energy in your "flare", depending on speed. If you flare to slow vertical speed, you are trying to fight inertia and gravity. If you flare to slow horizontal speed, you are fighting inertia and not gravity. So, the braking energy will have a greater impact on your horz speed than on your vertical speed.

Last Saturday I was on a 2 way and we broke at 5,000. I punched it hard to fly as long as possible after breakoff. My vertical speed got very low (listening to Flysight). While going about 70 MPH in the horz direction, I pitched and flared a bit at the same time. The deployment was totally mushy.

Instructor quote, “What's weird is that you're older than my dad!”

[Prior23 0]

What kind/size canopy are you jumping?

The video you posted you can achieve a similar opening by putting the suit into a controlled dive to build up speed before flaring. You actually end up gaining a bit up altitude so you can pitch at the top of your flare to take advantage of the low vertical decent. You did mention minus the line twists but while you're working on this technique you can be assured that will be part of the equation starting out, so I would take your deployment a bit higher initially.

When talking smaller suits though I agree with the above sink out technique as the preferred option.

B.A.S.E. #1734

[Anachronist 2]

So maybe I should have prefaced this with I have ~300 ws jumps, not looking for anecdotes or first-flight esque "advice," though I appreciate the enthusiasm.

[Anachronist 2]

Prior23

What kind/size canopy are you jumping?

The video you posted you can achieve a similar opening by putting the suit into a controlled dive to build up speed before flaring. You actually end up gaining a bit up altitude so you can pitch at the top of your flare to take advantage of the low vertical decent. You did mention minus the line twists but while you're working on this technique you can be assured that will be part of the equation starting out, so I would take your deployment a bit higher initially.

When talking smaller suits though I agree with the above sink out technique as the preferred option.

Ahh thanks for the info, so basically do what I initially mentioned but harder and faster?

[Prior23 0]

It's not really about being "harder" or "faster" with your movements really per say, also because I simply just don't know exactly what kind of movements you were already trying without video to watch.

I noticed when flying bigger suits like the Colugo and others that are "comfortable" in a controlled dive it doesn't really take much to slow your vertical decent to virtually 0 with a solid flare. There are a lot of factors in play here so every individual is going to be different.

I have a buddy that just got back from the valley and he reports his best and most reliable base openings for his Aura were achieved when diving the suit shortly before flaring and deploying.

Being that you are flying a Havok your results are going to be quite different so as I said before the sink out technique may be your best option. Everyone will have different results.

B.A.S.E. #1734

[Anachronist 2]

Thanks, I'll play around with trying to maximize the flare. I don't expect to get anything like big suit results but just slowing it down will be nice.

[dthames 0]

Anachronist

So maybe I should have prefaced this with I have ~300 ws jumps, not looking for anecdotes or first-flight esque "advice," though I appreciate the enthusiasm.

I don't understand this response in regards to my post. Some miscommunication I guess.

Instructor quote, “What's weird is that you're older than my dad!”

[WickedWingsuits 0]

If you are going to play around with pulling in flight/flare then you should go the whole hog and play around with dumping the d-bag too.

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[WickedWingsuits 0]

I read something recently, I think by Matt Gerdes, about angle of attack during deployment. I thought he made some good points about keeping speed up during a full flight deployment to reduce burble size.

I have personally witnessed a HUGE flare with a freepacked, slider off deployment that still resulted in line twist. I think keep the speed up (less flare) and you have a better chance of a clean opening. The problem is you can't do too many of those in a day.

One day in the future we will have wingsuit specific containers that will be designer for full flight opening, until then it is all a comprise.

disclaimer: my openings along these lines are still a work in progress and are far from recommended for beginner or casual wingsuiters.

Summer Rental special, 5 weeks for the price of 4! That is $160 a month.

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[The111 0]

Anachronist

I'm basically looking for soft and slow. As close to a hop and pop as can be accomplished.

One reason hop n pops are soft is because they keep you head high (relative to the ground) if you deploy on the hill. One thing most people overlook is that an opening feels "hard" or "soft" not just due to overall airspeed, but also orientation. Acceleration is a change in linear velocity or angular velocity. The hardest opening I've had in my life was a subterminal reserve opening. But the reserve opened toward my feet, and pulled my head toward my feet with it when it opened. This resulted in a very quick angular acceleration, i.e. whiplash. With cameras on my head soft is my number one priority, and I don't do a huge flare, I simply:
1) slow forward speed if I have a lot, using legs/arms/chest
2) close legwing completely (if the suit allows it) to put my head high and my body's angle as close to vertical as possible (thus less rotational change will occur during deployment)
3) focus on horizon and keep my eyes there or higher during snatch/snivel

Steps 1 & 2 can be combined and replaced with a flare, but it's a bit harder to get right and timing becomes critical.

This when done right results in openings that feel softer than hop n pops, IMO. The key is having my head above my cg before the deployment starts, and keeping it there through the whole deployment. Even without cameras on your head, the same is true. In normal freefall your max rotational change during deployment is 90 degrees, from flat on belly to vertical under canopy. Most wingsuit deployment styles produce more rotational change than this. But if you do it right you can end up with less.

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[Anachronist 2]

dthames - yes I think we were just talking about different things. I appreciate the input.

Thanks for the info, it'll definitely give me something to play with. My deployments have been very consistent and very good, line twists are uncommon and for the most part they are very comfortable. I've just been trying to "optimize" them in the sense that everything can be made better.

Wicked - I have jumped some free packed BASE canopies slider up (ws and belly, it sucked, a lot, but not my forte so I was probably doing something wrong (I also just pro packed them)

[dthames 0]

The111

***I'm basically looking for soft and slow. As close to a hop and pop as can be accomplished.

One reason hop n pops are soft is because they keep you head high (relative to the ground) if you deploy on the hill. One thing most people overlook is that an opening feels "hard" or "soft" not just due to overall airspeed, but also orientation. Acceleration is a change in linear velocity or angular velocity. The hardest opening I've had in my life was a subterminal reserve opening. But the reserve opened toward my feet, and pulled my head toward my feet with it when it opened. This resulted in a very quick angular acceleration, i.e. whiplash. With cameras on my head soft is my number one priority, and I don't do a huge flare, I simply:
1) slow forward speed if I have a lot, using legs/arms/chest
2) close legwing completely (if the suit allows it) to put my head high and my body's angle as close to vertical as possible (thus less rotational change will occur during deployment)
3) focus on horizon and keep my eyes there or higher during snatch/snivel

Steps 1 & 2 can be combined and replaced with a flare, but it's a bit harder to get right and timing becomes critical.

This when done right results in openings that feel softer than hop n pops, IMO. The key is having my head above my cg before the deployment starts, and keeping it there through the whole deployment. Even without cameras on your head, the same is true. In normal freefall your max rotational change during deployment is 90 degrees, from flat on belly to vertical under canopy. Most wingsuit deployment styles produce more rotational change than this. But if you do it right you can end up with less.

Matt,

I recall geeking the camera on a deployment and my goal was to stay close to the camera but to go back more than down, relative to the camera, to stay safely away. After I pitched, I basically tried to stand up, waiting on the deployment. I had never done that, but it worked fairly well. This reduced that angular velocity a lot.

https://youtu.be/KnY60XkwT7U

Instructor quote, “What's weird is that you're older than my dad!”

[Anachronist 2]

That looked pretty good.

I've never had the pendulum/whiplash issue after my first 5 or 10 ws jumps. I bring my knees up and reach for the risers as soon as I feel line stretch (old habit from having line twists fairly common in the beginning) which might be helping me get more vertical under the risers but I'm not sure. I also lean and look back usually seeing the end of the snivel and the slider come down which could be contributing to it as well.

Only had one bad neck jerk and it was a free packed slider up BASE canopy, the muscles in my throat were sore. Oddly enough, more so than anywhere else, maybe I just have a beefy neck. But that deployment was virtually instant, I would guess less than 1 second from line stretch to full inflation.

The attached photo is about as good of an angle I have been able to achieve during extraction (using the method I initially mentioned).

[dthames 0]

Just some data view, with no specific point. This is the jump that I mentioned (last Saturday) when my horz speed was fairly good, and the vertical was pretty low. I just pitched mostly while in flight and it was pretty mushy. The 3D speed was 85-90 range, more horz than vert.

[inline horz-vert.jpg]
[inline vert-3d.jpg]
[inline horz-3d.jpg]

Instructor quote, “What's weird is that you're older than my dad!”

[Anachronist 2]

Very interesting, I've never jumped a flysight so I have no idea what my horizontal speed is. Might be worth a shot to find out.

[WickedWingsuits 0]

That's the thing, I *think* the energy has to go somewhere. If you flare and get a very slow vert then you will probably find you have a pretty decent horizontal speed.

In my mind you are always splitting about 100mph between vertical and horizontal. I think of pulling in full flight as being similar to pulling out the door of a King Air and not a C182.

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[Prior23 0]

I know some people that go so far as to put dacron on their skyrig when wingsuiting to soften the openings up. I personally wouldn't go this route but it's just a matter of preference.

B.A.S.E. #1734

[jakee 1,254]

WickedWingsuits

That's the thing, I *think* the energy has to go somewhere. If you flare and get a very slow vert then you will probably find you have a pretty decent horizontal speed.

It goes into to places, the air you're displacing and the potential energy you are increasing by gaining height.

How well this works depends how efficient the wing is. The steeper you can climb the slower your overall speed can be. With a rigid wing you can flare to zero airspeed (momentarily) in every direction. With a modern big wing suit you can't do that well but done right you can get slower than your slowest sustainable total airspeed for sure.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[dthames 0]

Anachronist

So I've been trying to improve my flare prior to deployment (no BASE). I seem to be able to bleed off a good bit of speed but don't have anywhere near the pitch up rotation that I've seen from some folks (which I associate with deceleration and a better d-bag extraction angle), my deployments are at best 30 degrees from horizontal. Any suggestions? WS is a Havok, my method has been speed up a little, press arms down hard then dig in a little with my knees. Any tips? Thanks in advance.

Remembering this thread, last Saturday I as on a jump and about ready to deploy, so as I pitched, I pulled up into a very head high posture. I can't explain what I did, exactly. I just sort of stood it up, like I was a big drag brake. I certainly departed from flight.

Instructor quote, “What's weird is that you're older than my dad!”