Navigation

[spex 0]

Are there any good resources covering navigation from exit point to landing zone with considerations for wind speed and direction? I want to have a better understanding of how far out I can go and still get back comfortably without over or under shooting at any dropzone. I also want to get a better idea of consideration for leading flocks, etc.

There is a ton of material on spotting for skydiving, and I see this as being a very similar topic, but don't know any good resources.

[Bluhdow 31]

Jump a lot. Also look around while you're doing it.

Apex BASE
#1816

[spex 0]

Bluhdow

Jump a lot. Also look around while you're doing it.

I've already heard that and already do it. I understand it as the go-to answer, but it's really not sufficient. We don't just tell skydiving students to spot by feel, we teach them how to look at the horizon and then make sure they're looking straight down. We teach them how far the aircraft throws you and how the wind adds to that drift. There are a lot of details that we pass down, but I'm not seeing that in wingsuiting. Perhaps it is because of how relatively young our sport is, or some other reason, but I would very much like to hear more detailed instruction or be pointed to good resources. I understand how relative it is given skill level and suit type, but I'm sure we can do better than "jump more and look around."

[ridebmxbikes 0]

its just like a tracking dive or a landing pattern. know what jump run and the winds are doing. get out last so you know if jump run changed or turned at the last second so you know where everyone is. figure out if a right hand pattern or a left hand pattern would be best based on jump run and out landing locations. the more powerful the track the wider you make your pattern.

if you are new to a drop zone, talk to locals about local policies and try to keep an open mind. maybe have them lead a dive for your first time there.

navigation takes experience. its even harder in a new suit or new location.

p.s. following my advice may cause off landings and not only will i not take responseability but i will also point and laugh!

[Thijs 0]

I all depends on a lot of variables, and it is even more complicated than normal spotting. As said before, talk to locals or manifest/DZO before jumping if there are any special rules which need to be followed.

Here are some of the variables you need to take into consideration.
1) In which direction is jumprun, and how does this direction correlate with the wind? (pilot will know this)
2) How high are the winds in freefall? (pilot will know this)
3) How high are the winds under canopy, and from which direction will they be coming? (can easily be spotted on other loads, or just ask other jumpers and pilot).
4) How far from the DZ will you be jumping out? This depends on winds, number of groups in the aircraft, how long will it take for your group to climb out... This is often something you only can get a good look at just before you start climbing out.
5) How fast/long it the group you are jumping with going to fly?
6) Are there any other wingsuit groups on your load and how do they affect your pattern.

And leading a flock on the back only makes this more challenging :)

And even the best and most experienced flyers sometimes land out with a flock. Especially on the first load not every variable is always known.

Also, if you are leading a flock, be very strict to people on the direction they are flying at breakoff. it is not safe if at breakoff everyones goal becomes 'making it back to the DZ'.

I don't know if there is any 'formal' write down of wingsuit navigation (maybe DSE of Jarno have something). If not, maybe I'll start doing some writing on a bad weather day :)

[wyrdrocks 0]

Try talking with the pilots.
Ask about the wind speeds and directions.
Ask how long the runway is to get a sight picture at altitude for distance.
Ask the pilot for a couple of landmarks for comparable distance.
Ask if the pilot could give you signals to let you know the distance from the dz while your standing in the door.
Then write down in the log book for that jump what your distance was on exit, wind speeds and direction, and how your canopy ride was, and did you make it back without any worries.

We often view the pilots as just your ride up, but they have so much info for us, wingsuiters especially. At the beginning or end of the day, sit down and talk to one about what patterns they fly after the load is empty, and what they recommend/would like for you to do when leading a flock.

[OuttaBounZ 0]

Exit~> fly half way to pull altitude~> turn around and come back (don't forget to look down) p.s. Adjust for wind.

That will be $20

Never, under any circumstances, take a sleeping pill and a laxative on the same night.

[ifell 0]

Honestly I am happy someone is interested and asking questions... I find most people don't know or don't care and some just don't want to know. We have an issue here with a few people with no solo wingsuit jumps because they don't understand these principles. They always want to follow someone else. I think that is a problem. Out of all the questions I get from new birds none are about navigation and I feel like maybe this isn't getting all the attention it deserves in FFCs.

I have a system for the DZs around here where first off I always talk with the pilot about jump run and winds (usually on the way up when he has a minute) and second I find that a good first jump on the day is to add a mile or so to the furthest point he would let out the freefallers then adjust depending on type of jumps I want to do.

Bottom line is talk to the pilot, there is a reason why a specific jump run is established

[Bluhdow 31]

There's science behind it, sure. But the reality is that you're not going to bust out your Texas Instruments calculator on the plane. Talk to the pilot on each load and draw correlations between what the winds are doing be mindful of and how you're impacted.

For our purposes, it's more art than science.

So again, jump a lot and pay attention.

Apex BASE
#1816

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

Quote

And leading a flock on the back only makes this more challenging :)

This is misleading. While there may be a person in the front of a flock on his/her back, that should never be the person in charge of navigation. Generally, when I back-lead, there is a person straight over the top of me who I take navigation keys from.

Chuck

[Thijs 0]

SkymonkeyONE

This is misleading. While there may be a person in the front of a flock on his/her back, that should never be the person in charge of navigation. Generally, when I back-lead, there is a person straight over the top of me who I take navigation keys from.

Yes, that is indeed what we do as well. We usually just use that person as a 'backup'. It is still the person flying on his back which is setting the initial direction and initiating all the turns. The backup person will only intervene when needed.

[Feath3r 0]

OuttaBounZ

Exit~> fly half way to pull altitude~> turn around and come back (don't forget to look down) p.s. Adjust for wind.

This is a terrible and unsafe idea. Do you know why?


Everyone flies at different rates. Different fall rates, different horizontal speeds, different glide ratios (GR). The challenge for newer fliers is and has always been to determine at which point they've positioned themselves out of being able to fly completely back to their canopy playground under their wingsuit when hard lanes of wingsuit flight have not been established at a dropzone. I.e.: Where wingsuiters always make left hand patterns out of the aircraft and fly directly back to the dz once in their designated lane, or the plane makes a left turn before wingsuiters get out so they only need to make one turn to point themselves down their lane.

Spotting for wingsuits in flight is very similar to spotting for canopies in flight. Have you ever taken a flight 1 canopy course? In the 101 course, they tell you to find the spot on the ground that isn't moving up or down, only getting larger. If you make no other adjustments on your way down, the spot that isn't moving is where you will be landing. Wingsuit spotting is very similar with extra consideration that the spot is going to move significantly when you deploy, (unless you're flying at the same or better GR as your canopy, which may happen if flying into a stiff head wind, or flying a very large suit) and that you don't necessarily see that spot since it is hovering above the patch of ground you intend to deploy at, at your pull altitude. So, first you need to be able to find that spot under your wingsuit, and then have a pretty good clue about where that spot will move to once you deploy.

The more experience you have finding that spot, the easier and faster you'll be able to find it while leading flocks, or while flying at less than your personal max. The faster you can find that spot, the sooner you'll know if your flight plan (if you aren't flying down a lane) will need an adjustment and/or a turn.

[Rauk 0]

I agree with this. I have led a lot of jumps on my back lately and I have no problem at all leading this way and navigating at the same time. I don't even request a secondary spotter. People obviously know to give me feedback if needed but this rarely/never happens. I have even had to give people the "talk to the hand" (wait for it...) in freefall because they were nervous of our position, and giving me corrections I ignored. I had already led two jumps prior to this that day and had an idea of where we needed to be (EVERYONE landed in on the jump as well) in relation to the "no fly zone" our DZ has. Given I have been jumping at this DZ for 12+ years so I am VERY familiar with the terrain/landmarks. I feel if you are leading jumps on your back, the ability to successfully navigate these jumps should be a mandatory prerequisite. Honestly if you can't navigate successfully on your back without a spotter, maybe you shouldn't be leading on your back. Not directing this at anyone in particular, in fact I have had this conversation with many newer jumpers at my DZ that landed off due to backflying "blind". At the same time if you have trouble looking over your shoulder (a quick glance should usually suffice if you have landmarks and are familiar with the terrain) without compromising your flight/performance, again, maybe you need to take it back to the drawing board.

Just my two cents, for what it is worth :)

[dthames 0]

spex

Are there any good resources covering navigation from exit point to landing zone with considerations for wind speed and direction? I want to have a better understanding of how far out I can go and still get back comfortably without over or under shooting at any dropzone. I also want to get a better idea of consideration for leading flocks, etc.

There is a ton of material on spotting for skydiving, and I see this as being a very similar topic, but don't know any good resources.

I feel like I do a fair job at this. I can tell you what my process was, and to some extent still is.

1. Get some idea of what the upper level winds are doing. A forecast is normally good enough.
2. Estimate your forward speed, into the wind, with the wind, and 90 degrees to the wind. Get in your head the differences in those three, which will vary a lot depending on the uppers.
3. Determine what your ideal deployment point is, relative to your exit point. If you are last out and you fly for 2 minutes, you can navigate back to your exit point, or close to it. I will use that for an example, now.
4. If you are facing the uppers and they are 25 MPH, your headwind and tailwind speed will be different by about 50 MPH. If you are flying about 75 MPH (no wind), that gives you 50 MPH (into the wind) and 100 MPH (with the wind). Flying into the wind for 100 MPH/50 MPH times as long as you fly with a tailwind will take you back to the same part of the jumprun, not considering the offset. In this example 60 seconds into the wind, 30 seconds cross wind, 30 seconds with the wind should put you about 5/8 mile offset and about the same place up the jump run that you exited.
5. Record the track with a Flysight and study the track on a map to see if you did what you had set out to do.
6. Adjust according to step 5.

The first image is a bit far out but you can get the idea. Knowing the upper is a key factor.

[inline track1.jpg]
[inline track2.jpg]

Instructor quote, “What's weird is that you're older than my dad!”

[OuttaBounZ 0]

Feath3r

***Exit~> fly half way to pull altitude~> turn around and come back (don't forget to look down) p.s. Adjust for wind.

This is a terrible and unsafe idea. Do you know why?


Everyone flies at different rates. Different fall rates, different horizontal speeds, different glide ratios (GR). The challenge for newer fliers is and has always been to determine at which point they've positioned themselves out of being able to fly completely back to their canopy playground under their wingsuit when hard lanes of wingsuit flight have not been established at a dropzone. I.e.: Where wingsuiters always make left hand patterns out of the aircraft and fly directly back to the dz once in their designated lane, or the plane makes a left turn before wingsuiters get out so they only need to make one turn to point themselves down their lane.

Spotting for wingsuits in flight is very similar to spotting for canopies in flight. Have you ever taken a flight 1 canopy course? In the 101 course, they tell you to find the spot on the ground that isn't moving up or down, only getting larger. If you make no other adjustments on your way down, the spot that isn't moving is where you will be landing. Wingsuit spotting is very similar with extra consideration that the spot is going to move significantly when you deploy, (unless you're flying at the same or better GR as your canopy, which may happen if flying into a stiff head wind, or flying a very large suit) and that you don't necessarily see that spot since it is hovering above the patch of ground you intend to deploy at, at your pull altitude. So, first you need to be able to find that spot under your wingsuit, and then have a pretty good clue about where that spot will move to once you deploy.

The more experience you have finding that spot, the easier and faster you'll be able to find it while leading flocks, or while flying at less than your personal max. The faster you can find that spot, the sooner you'll know if your flight plan (if you aren't flying down a lane) will need an adjustment and/or a turn.

Didn't read!

Never, under any circumstances, take a sleeping pill and a laxative on the same night.