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Maksimsf

Squirrel Funk

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I demoed a SFLY Hawk a few months ago and their skydiving setup (it was the skydive version, no innie outie) is the best in my opinion. The material on the suit around the handles is stiffer so there is no or less of a chance of the handle getting sucked inside the suit.

I wish PF would do the same and Squirrel offer an outie version. Having the rig inside the suit makes a (minor) difference and probably only competitors really need it in my opinion.

The thumb loop is key for acro as you have more control over the arm wing therefore can fly much, much cleaner. The thumb loop on the Funk is important however renders the RAD system (fancy names..) useless as mentioned earlier.

For Acro suits I would always go with a stiff leading edge, thumb loops and in that case cables as the stretchy sleeves with a thumb loop won't work. As with all flying it is important to have a clean leading edge, for acro especially. The image -- which was posted earlier - with the leading edge deforming shows really well how the flight characteristics are affected and 100% clean flying is not possible anymore.

While I believe the stretchy sleeves (or RAD) make deployments safer, they also have an obvious disadvantage as the leading edge deforms. While some people say it's not a big deal...imagine a plane wing with a soft leading edge. No need for discussion unless you want to question proven aerodynamics. Just ask an engineer. And it can definitely cause issues at high speeds as you cannot fly the suit as precise and clean as with a non deforming or stiffer leading edge.

For most pilots, it probably won't matter, but it you are pushing the limits I guess the pilot needs to choose the lesser evil.

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B52

For Acro suits I would always go with a stiff leading edge, thumb loops and in that case cables as the stretchy sleeves with thumb loop won't work.



Hmmm...I can think of one. ;)

I would also add that, for me, moderate pressurization is important on an acro suit that I'll be flailing all over the place. I've been able to get my Havok into some funky situations (pardon the pun), and the ability to collapse the wings to regain stability is important to me.

I've said a few times that I think any safety gains made by the RAD system are over-ridden by the insane pressurization. You just lose your ability to shut the suit down. Some people are cool with that, I'm not.

Also, I think the RAD system is much more important for BASE. For skydiving...whatever. It's a nice-to-have option, but not need-to-have, in my view.
Apex BASE
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If you plan on using the suit for skydiving only, why not just remove the 'innie-outie' system?

Unstich the zipper and move it up the the width of your MLW (or adjust the zipper location to the perfect spot for your rig/body, and sew up any remaining undesired opening), leaving a permanent fixed hole where your MLW will come out when the zipper is closed - yet attaching your suit to the rig stays the same.

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If I was Squirrel I would look at this and consider adding a skydive only option to the Funk. Stiffened leading edge and no innie-outtie. Especially if the alternative is people start modifying your design.

PF offers a BASE only option on some of their suits, so it's not entirely unprecedented.
Apex BASE
#1816

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Bluhdow

If I was Squirrel I would look at this and consider adding a skydive only option to the Funk. Stiffened leading edge and no innie-outtie. Especially if the alternative is people start modifying your design.

PF offers a BASE only option on some of their suits, so it's not entirely unprecedented.



i would like to see more options for the squirrel suits. my funk should be arriving in about 3 weeks. i hope my suit won't be handle hungry. i didn't know that problem existed [:/] i guess thats what i get for ordering something newly released

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I don't know why peeps complaining about thumb loops and RAD... It's so easy to drop loops after pitch, but i think it's just a matter of what we used to... My first suit was GTI paired with 230 Spectre - so I'm used to loops. My first pull on Funk was not so beautiful with some nasty linetwist, it takes less then a second to drop thumb loops and then grab risers. I'm surprised that some WS pilots with way more experience than me bitching about loops and RAD :S.

P.S. get a canopy that snivel longer and you will have enough time to do your housekeeping before slider goes down :D

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B52

Talk to an experienced acro coach so you know how to properly use them. In addition good luck just dropping them during a stressful malfunction ;)



Well, then talk to experienced packer how to avoid "stressful malfunction" :)

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Just skimmed through the thread so dont know if anyone has mentioned these point. Ive found that hard reserve handles feel like they are most likely to get sucked in on this type of zipper system. I personally would only use two soft handles.

I have found another nice way to keep the zips really close together which seems to work quite well. Get size 0 s carabiners (available at REI and even Home Depot) and use them to clip the ends of the zippers together. I actually clip one through where the actual pull attaches to the zipper to make it even tighter.

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hjumper33

Just skimmed through the thread so dont know if anyone has mentioned these point. Ive found that hard reserve handles feel like they are most likely to get sucked in on this type of zipper system. I personally would only use two soft handles.

I have found another nice way to keep the zips really close together which seems to work quite well. Get size 0 s carabiners (available at REI and even Home Depot) and use them to clip the ends of the zippers together. I actually clip one through where the actual pull attaches to the zipper to make it even tighter.



This entire discussion (i.e. "how to safely jump a wingsuit that might swallow your handles") is insane to me. If I have a wingsuit that swallows my handles, I am not going to skydive with that wingsuit, end of discussion. Not sure how anybody could conclude otherwise. Cutaways can be scary enough with your handles actually accessible, I'd prefer not to die because my handles were inside my shirt.

The suggested workarounds don't really make the situation any less dire. What you're proposing with the carabiner (and please correct me if I'm misunderstanding, preferably with a picture) would rely on the fragile zipper tabs not breaking. Again, it is a no-brainer to me that my reserve parachute system has to be reliable in all situations, and could not have such a weak link as a flimsy zipper pull.
www.WingsuitPhotos.com

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The111


This entire discussion (i.e. "how to safely jump a wingsuit that might swallow your handles") is insane to me.



Welcome to DZ.com's Wing Suit Flying Forum. So how long you been on the internet? ;)
Fiend

I am about to take my last voyage, a great leap in the dark. - Thomas Hobbes.

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jpengel

If you plan on using the suit for skydiving only, why not just remove the 'innie-outie' system?



Yes; if I keep the suit, I'll likely do a modification. It might be like what you've described. Another option is to make a "panel" that sits behind the hole to prevent the handle from entering the suit. (That was Lurch's solution to his innie-outie problem.)

Bluhdow

If I was Squirrel I would look at this and consider adding a skydive only option to the Funk.



I would buy the shit out of that option, and I know at least five other people who have said more or less the same thing. Squirrel would be the awesomest company ever if they came up with a skydiving-only option.

B52

I wouldn't worry. It works on most rigs and if it doesn't, Squirrel has fantastic customer service and I am sure they will will fix it promptly. Just send them an email.



Errr.... While I agree they do have great customer service, I did email them (and they replied quickly). That's how I found out it was a known issue on some rigs. There's no real "fix" to it that they offered up other than making sure you check your handles before you leave the plane.

hjumper33

Ive found that hard reserve handles feel like they are most likely to get sucked in on this type of zipper system. I personally would only use two soft handles.



I think this is right, but I haven't wanted to switch away from the traditional D-ring on my rig, however, for the reasons people usually say one should stick with a D-ring (I don't want to derail the conversation with a sidebar on the pros and cons of the soft handle over D-ring; that was basically just my decision.) I'm sure lots of free-fliers woulds say I'm wrong about wanting to stick with a D-ring, but...

Maksimsf

I don't know why peeps complaining about thumb loops and RAD...



In my case, it's because I want to be able to reach up to my risers (like I can with my S-bird and Ghost3) to try to avoid stuff like this: http://iloveskydiving.org/view/videos/friday-freakout-crunch-parachute-collision/ (Keep in mind, I'm not sure it would have made a difference in this guy's case, but this is - personally - my biggest fear in skydiving.)
Skwrl Productions - Wingsuit Photography

Northeast Bird School - Chief Logistics Guy and Video Dork

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I haven't heard any complaints about the innie-outtie on the Colugo or Aura...only now with the Funk. Why is that? I can't think of an intuitive reason why it would be fine on one suit and not on another.

Which leads to my earlier question which went largely unanswered...any issues with this on the new PF suits?

I know innie-outtie was an issue on the old Apaches...maybe there's just a flaw inherent in using zippers (which Tony obviously seems to think at this point).
Apex BASE
#1816

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Bluhdow

I haven't heard any complaints about the innie-outtie on the Colugo or Aura...only now with the Funk. Why is that? I can't think of an intuitive reason why it would be fine on one suit and not on another.

Which leads to my earlier question which went largely unanswered...any issues with this on the new PF suits?

I know innie-outtie was an issue on the old Apaches...maybe there's just a flaw inherent in using zippers (which Tony obviously seems to think at this point).



I'm sort of surprised that you haven't heard of this issue before. I've heard of these problems on Colugos, Auras, Funks (obviously), and a whole bunch of different Tony Suits designs (I even personally experienced it with a Scorpion). Although I haven't yet heard of it with the new PF designs, that's probably because I don't know too many people with those suits. But I have no question that they'll have similar problems if they are done the same way.

Do any of you folks with the new PF suits have any similar issues? More anecdotes would be useful.

Like I said before, this isn't about brands. This is about an approach to suit design that - at least a few people feel - is a potentially hazardous one, for some people in some suits with some rigs. For skydivers, I question the benefit of the design when compared with the risks.
Skwrl Productions - Wingsuit Photography

Northeast Bird School - Chief Logistics Guy and Video Dork

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A friend of mine had the issue with an Aura. He sent it to Squirrel, they fixed it by adding a bit of fabric to move the position of the zippers. It was done within a week. Great/fast customer service.

The only reason why I hold on to my Havok is because PF has more experience with acro suits. In my opinion the suit is better balanced and can be flown more agile as the wings are not as rigid as the Funk.

Does anybody know of any videos of carving around formations in the Funk. It seems it's mostly done in Havoks, might also just be pilot skill.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WuUbfHaa_pw&list=UUqCe11PfGLN7fiJ442JQvuw
http://iloveskydiving.org/view/videos/hello-tuesday-wingsuit-skydive/

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Skwrl

Do any of you folks with the new PF suits have any similar issues? More anecdotes would be useful.


I think PF only has the option on the newer V-Race and Venom Power and I have no idea how many have been sold yet.

I think having the option to have a 'normal' system for skydiving would be great. I am still wondering how much performance in gained by having the harness completely in the suit.

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Yah I agree that the zippers arent ideal. I dont think theres a lot of force being applied to those zippers at almost any time, and it there is, I want my little crappy plastic S beaners to break for sure. Same theory as why I will never jump those metal go pro mounts. I want something to be able to knock it off.

For me, I jump my wingsuits way more in the BASE setting, and skydiving is only practice. Until the funk brought me back to the fun of skydiving a wingsuit, I only did probably 20 skydives a year. My aura for example has 2 skydives and 60ish base jumps, and I dont think Ill likely ever skydive it again. The funk is a much more skydive specific suit, so I can see the desire for a better system. I personally have never had any problem with the handles getting sucked in, or even moving around, but thats with 2 soft handles and a javelin that works quite well with the suits it seems. I have had one cutaway in the suit that was definitely due to a bad bridle/pilot chute combo, and my handles were right where I wanted.

PS matt ill post a picture of the caribeaners I use when I get home. I like them quite a lot and have them on all my suits now.

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I was hoping to find a direct performance/flight characteristic comparison between the H Carve and Funk but since there isn't one yet and we are talking about zippers I'll throw in my 2 cents. (~200 WS jumps, P3, Havok, T & S-Bird, X-1, Swift)

As for the innie-outie system, it is retarded (Coming from a Sky perspective). 1st off, I have jumped a Swift several times (and a Funk once, it was too tight and small to get a good feel and why I haven't jumped it since) and I know people who jump every SQ product except the Funk regularly; everyone has complained about the innie-outie system but they deal with it because they like the suits, I too am not a fan. The difference for BASE has got to be miniscule, if it isn't, then make a BASE-only and Sky-only version. In the spirit of the Great Book of BASE, "If you can't afford the right size pilot chute, you can't afford to BASE jump," I would add "If you can't afford two wingsuits, you can't afford to proximity fly."

And as a side note, I currently jump a Havok, the vast majority of my WS jumps are on it, and I am looking to replace it with a Carve or a Funk. I loathe using the zipper system every time. Full body zippers are the way to go, period. Currently IMHO Tony has the best (body) zipper system on the market, PF has an absurd system, and SQ has a potentially dangerous one for skydiving. Performance aside, because lets be honest, the Carve and Funk are going to be close, probably pilot preference more than an actual all-around advantage; if either SQ or PF used Tony's (body) zipper system I would buy either the Carve or Funk based on that alone. I hope PF and SQ are both reading this :) Those two companies have the best suits, but Tony has got them both smoked when it comes to zippers.

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Anachronist

everyone has complained about the innie-outie system but they deal with it because they like the suits, I too am not a fan. The difference for BASE has got to be miniscule, if it isn't, then make a BASE-only and Sky-only version. In the spirit of the Great Book of BASE, "If you can't afford the right size pilot chute, you can't afford to BASE jump," I would add "If you can't afford two wingsuits, you can't afford to proximity fly."



I think this may be a bit harsh, I have had the handles go in the suit on the Swift and decided not to jump it more than once (it was a friend's suit). If only all these companies would offer it as an option then everyone would be 100% satisfied and that makes me wonder why it is still being pushed on us for these select suits

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ifell

***everyone has complained about the innie-outie system but they deal with it because they like the suits, I too am not a fan. The difference for BASE has got to be miniscule, if it isn't, then make a BASE-only and Sky-only version. In the spirit of the Great Book of BASE, "If you can't afford the right size pilot chute, you can't afford to BASE jump," I would add "If you can't afford two wingsuits, you can't afford to proximity fly."



I think this may be a bit harsh, I have had the handles go in the suit on the Swift and decided not to jump it more than once (it was a friend's suit). If only all these companies would offer it as an option then everyone would be 100% satisfied and that makes me wonder why it is still being pushed on us for these select suits

That is a good question, I don't know beyond anecdotal stories. From what I hear, even PF's own people have asked for full body zippers but Robert Pecnik has an ego problem about PF zippers, and so I've been told third hand "Thinks they just look better." They function great once the suit is on, but getting in and out is a pain. As for SQ, my only guess is that Mike Steen and Matt Gerdes, and most of the SQ team, are dyed-in-the-wool BASE jumpers (After all, Matt is the author of the Great Book of BASE) and their suits are very BASE oriented. I would even posit that the innie-outie system is a compromise so they can actually be jumped in the sky.

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I like the PF zippers and don't think it's all that complicated to get the suit on/off but I would like to order a suit without the innie option. Have heard from friends that like Tony's suits that they would like to get them without the innie system as well. From what I can gather here and at the multiple DZs I have visited this year same goes for the people flying the Squirrel suits so... Why is this still standard if a good portion of people don't want it?

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In addition to what I said in the previous post, Tony, PF, and SQ are all very small companies and decisions rest in the hands of one or two people. Those people are all expert flyers and may not be totally in touch with the "general public." They are constantly adapting to different market demands and haven't yet found the discontent for zippers to be sufficient to change the design. Having multiple designs makes manufacturing more complicated and more expensive, if they don't think the money is in it to change, and they are happy with their design, they won't change. There is also the whole who is copying who problem and no one wants to be accused of copying a different company's design, because in a way that is admitting that their previous one is inferior. There is a lot of ego in all three big WS manufacturers. (I know literally nothing about S-Fly, just btw)

Also as for PF zippers, I jump in FL and in 90+ degree heat in 90+ % humidity, ease of getting in and out is kinda a big deal. I'm not bendy enough to put on a PF suit standing (I can but sitting is much much easier) and at the very least, getting in or out of a Tony suit is much faster and easier.

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