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Maksimsf

Squirrel Funk

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So, I hear what you are saying and I seriously did not like the idea of having missing handles while I practice malfunctions at 2000ft, so I tried to investigate this problem more seriously this time. I once again got into the suit, to test out if its even possible to make the handles dissapear inside the holes if I try my absolute best.

Once I had moved the zippers to cirkus freak mode :-) the optimal posistion for handle comsumption, I tried to sit down while moving my body in a rhythm inspired by flatspins, Shakira and the time I had pinworms. I agree, it looks scary, not the pinworm movement, but the actual gaping hole in the wingsuit so close to the handles. I found comfort in the fact that I measured the height of the hole to be about 3" while the cutaway, or ripcord handle is about 4". It makes it pretty damn hard to fit it into the hole.

I would still say its impossible using your upper body. Even if the width of the hole seems to open up like a big mouth when you are sitting down, the height of the hole remains the same. If you use your hands you can stretch the bungy so that the WS material goes over the handle. But it seemed to pop back out again once I stand up and hold the armwing out. So to me it seems that simply avoid trying to use your fingers to cover your handles would solve this "issue", so would a simple knot or ziptie that restricts the max size of the hole. Even if this is overkill in my opionion.

I might be biased cause I have flown this suit and loved it so much, but still I never heard of this issue before, I tested it and could not not re-create the error, logic tells me 4" handles dont fit into 3" holes and I also check my handles before jumping out of the airplane. This is why I think the issue is mostly relevant to yourself and a selected few other trypophobic jumpers.

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For example, my tailor tells me that I'm long-waisted (which means that, for my height [5'11" or 180cm] I have a longer waist and shorter legs than a typical person) and I have broader shoulders than one would expect for a guy with my height. It's possible that the issues I've had to deal with are due to those variations (which aren't huge, mind you - I'm not a circus freak, at least in this regard).

But the point still stands - there are some other people who have the issue I have been faced with due to the design, and that's a known thing.

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So I think we all get the point that you clearly don't have an issue with your suit swallowing handles. Can you not at least concede that it is possible on a different rig with a different sized body?? Have you even tried hooking it up to a variety of different rigs on different people? It seems you tried 1 suit with 1 rig on 1 person and have come to the conclusion that everyone else must be crazy because it works for you. I don't see why you are so defensive when people are simply trying to discuss the issue. I still haven't tried any suits from squirrel so I can't give any personal opinion. Just seems that you are absurdly certain in your conviction that it is impossible for this to be a real issue. Unless you have tried this on multiple different rigs with different body types I don't know how you can be so sure of yourself.

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0584

This is why I think the issue is mostly relevant to yourself and a selected few other trypophobic jumpers.



I wish you were right. I've got friends who have told me about problems with innie-outie system (Squirrel's and others') for a while now. The problem isn't really rare. A guy at my DZ who received his Funk a week before me has the same issue. Hell, Lurch even made a major modification to one of his (non-Squirrel) suits to deal with the issue.

Add to that the messages that I've received after my initial review of the Funk from a bunch of wingsuiters (here and on Facebook) saying that they've faced similar concerns, both with Squirrel suits and with non-Squirrel suits...

The point is that it isn't as much of an outlier as you imply.

And if you really did dance around and failed to get it to suck in the reserve handle, your rig and suit fit each other well (or you're painfully white). You don't have the problem. To your point, the cutaway on my set up looks pretty safe. It's the reserve D-ring that I worry about. Could I change my D-ring? Sure. Do I feel I should have to in order to address this sort of problem? I'm not sure.

In the case of the Funk, I knew about the potential problem with innie-outie, but I ordered the Funk hoping it wouldn't be an issue for me. I wanted to try out a suit that looked interesting (and still is an interesting suit, as I mentioned earlier). But now I need to decide my comfort level with it, given this issue.

To be super clear, what I write isn't brand war - "innie-outie" isn't limited to Squirrel. (And really, I couldn't give a shit about what brand suit people fly.) I prefer to jump safely, though, so I'm going to point out what I see (and what others saw when they looked at my suit) as a problem. If you're comfortable with it, cool! Yay, you! I'm not as sure as you are.

P.S., talk to your physician about Albendazole or Mebendazole to treat your microbial infection.
Skwrl Productions - Wingsuit Photography

Northeast Bird School - Chief Logistics Guy and Video Dork

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dhbiker517

Here is what mine looks like while trying to swallow the handles...if you aren't super careful, as soon as you sit down in the plane the handle slides right in. Before exit I stand up, pull the suit and zippers down, and it seems to be fine, but it's a bit nerve racking.

http://imgur.com/71Cj60F



I'm actually much less bothered by your set up than I am with the one I have (but that's obviously a personal comfort thing, I have been known to be comfortable doing dumb things).

When I'm not in the middle of preparing to get married and heading to Burning Man, I'll gear up and post and video of mine. Using no hands, I can get it to cover at least part of the reserve handle with enough standing up and sitting down. Can I fix it before I leave the plane? Duh - Picard Maneuver. Easy. I'm just not sure I want to have to remember to do that as well.
Skwrl Productions - Wingsuit Photography

Northeast Bird School - Chief Logistics Guy and Video Dork

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Ive had alot of linetwists over the years. Usally no problem to clear it. No problem to reach up but I like to wait untill the canopy is fully inflated before I try to clear it. But this line twist it started spinning right after opening.
And I dont think Ive be able to clear the linetwist with some input. When I was spinning on my back I had no chance fixing it.

But if u know some other ways that Ive could have solved it on a better way I happy to listen.

Im also happy to get some feedback on why this linetwist happens. I did not get it after opening but it was alredy there before it opened. So it must have turned when going out of the container (flipping the inner bag) or the inner bag turning on its way out???
Ive changed to Semi Stowless bag now. Seems to help alot. The openings are alot smoother and no linetwists.

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It seems to me as though if you would have been spreading the risers on opening it could have (in similar experiences for me, did) stop the canopy from spinning up further and even start to unspin, before diving, even. This is of course just my opinion and my experience, but on my openings I always reach to my risers, as much as possible, and help steer the opening a bit. I have definitely prevented what I believe would have been a chop on several occasions. Now, mind you, I am not experiencing exactly what you did, so I cannot be sure in my assumption. Honestly, and again this is me, I would have fought that if I had the ability to reach up initially.

Another question, about the thumb loops on the Funk. What is their purpose and do they prevent the RAD system from working properly?

Thanks

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Missed your last paragraph. Honestly I wouldn't be able to help much there. I wonder a lot if skydiving canopies in bags are just a lot more unreliable than a bagless system as far as heading performance and line twists ;)

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Actually the canopy did not spin up further after opening. Also I think it actually helps closing the risers togheter to get out of the linetwists. My experience is if trying to spread them apart it only takes longer time. My experinece is if I pushing them togheter I more easilly get out of it. Also using the legwing at my advantage to help me unspin back out of the twist.


The purpose of the tumb loops is said to be easier to controll the armwing when flying on the back. But its not something u have to have. It works great without too. So its optional if want to use it or not. When using them I like to have the thumb loops a little loose and then I reach up to the risers if pulling my legs up. Without the thumb loops I reach up without pulling my legs up.

Hope this answers some of your questions.

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Rauk

Missed your last paragraph. Honestly I wouldn't be able to help much there. I wonder a lot if skydiving canopies in bags are just a lot more unreliable than a bagless system as far as heading performance and line twists ;)



The Semi Stowless bag is not a bagless system. Its still a bag but only with two rubberbands on it. Rest is stored in a pocket on the bag. After I changed to the semi stowless bag system the openings are much better and on heading without any linewists.
Before I changed I have a thought that my bag might have caught the side of the container and because of that turning making linetwists before the canopy started opening. Im not sure so would be cool to have some sugestions why that can happen and why its helps with the semi stowless bag system.

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Oddern

I did not get it after opening but it was alredy there before it opened.



How can you know that? I am assuming your video camera points where your eyes do. Which means that the canopy opened behind you, out of your sight. By the time you could see it, opening was already mostly finished.

The linetwists alone are no problem. Linetwists + harness shift (uneven risers) are. It was easy to see from the video the risers were offset by what looks like about 3 inches. Even if the bag did spin off your back like you think, and even if modding your gear fixes that, you'll still get linetwists if you load your harness unevenly and cause riser shift like that. Best way to fight that is to lock kneebones and anklebones together after pitching. It's impossible to shift in a harness if your legs are together like that (try it under canopy one day, try making a harness turn with legs together, you can't). BUT... the modern suits that inflate like a rock make it impossible to close your legs... another reason I don't like that characterists. Regardless, the point still stands that staying centered on opening is more important than what bag or container you have (not to say that the latter does not matter).
www.WingsuitPhotos.com

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Oddern

The purpose of the tumb loops is said to be easier to controll the armwing when flying on the back.



Out of curiosity, where did you hear that? With any other wingsuit thumbloops always existed only to make unzipping easier. I've never known of a suit where they were flight controls.
www.WingsuitPhotos.com

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Thanks for the feedback Matt.

Actually my camera was pointing downwards so i could film my wing while trying to backfly.

I had alot of trouble with the linetwist alredy beeing there when looking up on the canopy while it opens. Therefore Im thinking it might happen in the opening scenario from pitching the pilot until the canopy leaves the bag. But not sure like I said. So happy for inputs on that one and now why it seems to be so much better after changing to semi stowless bag.

In the scenario in the vid I think actually my one sholder dropped a bit during the opening also. And that combined with the linetwist and the uneven riser made the spin I think like u say.
I try to fly out the opening controlling to openings and stability with my hips and legwing. Like u say its hard to collapse the legwing on the big suits.

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The111

***The purpose of the tumb loops is said to be easier to controll the armwing when flying on the back.



Out of curiosity, where did you hear that? With any other wingsuit thumbloops always existed only to make unzipping easier. I've never known of a suit where they were flight controls.

Maybe im wrong but just my impression. If your right then its no point of having them because zipping up is no problem without the thumb loops.

Btw still doing those spinning exits ;) Remember some years back u put out some vids with your spinning exits and even flying on the back and doing a back flip. Watched every single one of those vids back in the days.

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***
Quote

C7JM wrote:
Unless you have tried this on multiple different rigs with different body types I don't know how you can be so sure of yourself.


It's because he is half-trolling

I think posts that states the point nice and clear makes for more fun and engaged reading. And to be fair I have gotten two good replies describing how the problem can possibly happen. Making it somewhat clearer but still not quite there.

***
Just seems that you are absurdly certain in your conviction that it is impossible for this to be a real issue.

My assumption was that a 4" handle cant dissapear into a 3" hole regardsless of rig and body type. I still believe this is true.
***
I should have stated...that picture was best case scenario. When I move around the hole grows and the handle goes right in.

On the picture I see a hole that looks bigger than my own hole (feel free to quote that:ph34r:). Is this really with the original bungee attached? I would probably shorten the bungee, or contact Squirrel and ask what to do if it keeps happening. They are super friendly and helpful.
***
I'll gear up and post and video of mine. Using no hands, I can get it to cover at least part of the reserve handle with enough standing up and sitting down.

I will seriously be insterested in seeing this movie. Also interested to know if your handles and holes top to bottom are of different sizes than my 4" and 3". Cause like I have said many times now, theres just no way the hole will bite over something bigger than itself. And especially when you stand up and apply tension on the zipper, its going to pop right out again from whatever its trying to bite over.
***
Can I fix it before I leave the plane? Duh - Picard Maneuver. Easy. I'm just not sure I want to have to remember to do that as well.
Picard Maneuver videolink was awesome, much appreciated. But I really dont think it should be concidered a hassle to check if your gear is in order before you jump. Its so basic, once you get up and even look at the door, touch pilotchute, and at least look at your handles. This is not unique to wingsuit flying, the handles could also come loose and dissapear from their velcro while boarding or dealing with seatbelts, helmets, changing place with tandemmaster, turn on gopros and so on. If you are just not sure if you want to have to remember to do this little check, then I think you need to reconcider how you approach safety in wingsuiting.
***P.S., talk to your physician about Albendazole or Mebendazole to treat your microbial infection.
The word trypophobic came after I googled phobia for holes :P, but yeah, I agree the results seems to remind me of infections.

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I agree to some extend with Tigern... You need the loops on the RAD sleeves to prevent "this" (pic in the attachement)happening to the armwing, which offcourse prevents the RAD system to work... so no point in marketing it, as such.

So regarding his chop on video... he couldn't reach to the risers using the RAD system even if he wanted to, or use it without the loop and risk "this" of happening.

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Oddern

Actually my camera was pointing downwards so i could film my wing while trying to backfly.



Ah ok. Even then I suspect it is still hard to see the canopy when it first opens since that is most likely behind you. Could always flip the camera the other way if you want to see for sure though. :-)

Oddern

Btw still doing those spinning exits ;) Remember some years back u put out some vids with your spinning exits and even flying on the back and doing a back flip. Watched every single one of those vids back in the days.



Haven't done one in a long time actually, haha.
www.WingsuitPhotos.com

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The problem isn't necessarily the bungee length. Picture what happens if the bungee doesn't stretch, the zippers stay the same distance apart, but the hole gets way bigger in an oval shape. Just because the bungees don't move doesn't mean the hole size can't grow and suck in a handle.

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The111

With any other wingsuit thumbloops always existed only to make unzipping easier.


funny, but now I use thumbloops for exactly opposite reason ;)
Once I had my armwing zip almost completely open in flight, with interesting flight characteristics as a result. Didn't use thumbloops on that jump.

I can also confirm the innie-outie handle issue - never had my handles completely swallowed, but it is close enough to make me nervous.
Actually I think the system is unnecessary and over-engineered for a suit clearly targeted at skydiving only.
On the other hand, the problem is not limited to Squirrel. The worst I had was on a PF Shadow which happily swallowed my reserve handle any time. Have to admit though, it was a borrowed suit, sized generic M, not made for my measurements.

I have modified the arm pressurization zippers with locking sliders. The original non-locking ones like to slide open more than intended in flight.

By the way, has anyone experienced any vibration somewhere on the arm wings leading edge or shoulder inlet?

P.S. Disclaimer: I still love the way my Funk flies B|

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dhbiker517

The problem isn't necessarily the bungee length. Picture what happens if the bungee doesn't stretch, the zippers stay the same distance apart, but the hole gets way bigger in an oval shape. Just because the bungees don't move doesn't mean the hole size can't grow and suck in a handle.


Yeah, I saw your picture, and I totally agree that it looks possible to get your handles swallowed with such a big hole. My suggestion was to shorten the rubber cord. But we seem to have a different opinion of the benefits of doing this. I do not think the opening of the hole get any bigger than its maximum, not matter how oval or sideways or whatever you make it.
Since I am at work, I had to use whatever office supplies I had at hand to visualize. (see attachment). No matter what angle I flip the reservehandle or change the shape of the hole, I can not make the hole swallow it. Simply because its too small and dont expand more than its maximum size.

I think the same principle applies to your wingsuit. As long as the max size of the hole is smaller than the reserve handle, its not going to be swallowed no matter how you twist it.

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This was my assumption as well but because I am not very familiar with the system/suit I didn't want to jump to any conclusions.

It seems without having something to hold on to (grippers), or having thumb loops, this RAD system is less than perfect (at least in this scenario), to say the least?

That picture looks horrible, by the way! :| Yet it is not the first I have seen like this of a suit with the RAD system. I recall seeing the Swift having this issue, assuming mostly when students/newer jumpers use the suit without holding the grippers?

I can't imagine it would be very easy to take a dock if this happens every time you let go of the gripper. The whole wing characteristic changes.

Not to mention, if this is the case, what would happen if you lost a gripper on a BASE jump, or more importantly on a terrain flight, and "this" happened? That seems like a VERY scary situation that I would not like to be in...

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0584

***The problem isn't necessarily the bungee length. Picture what happens if the bungee doesn't stretch, the zippers stay the same distance apart, but the hole gets way bigger in an oval shape. Just because the bungees don't move doesn't mean the hole size can't grow and suck in a handle.


Yeah, I saw your picture, and I totally agree that it looks possible to get your handles swallowed with such a big hole. My suggestion was to shorten the rubber cord. But we seem to have a different opinion of the benefits of doing this. I do not think the opening of the hole get any bigger than its maximum, not matter how oval or sideways or whatever you make it.
Since I am at work, I had to use whatever office supplies I had at hand to visualize. (see attachment). No matter what angle I flip the reservehandle or change the shape of the hole, I can not make the hole swallow it. Simply because its too small and dont expand more than its maximum size.

I think the same principle applies to your wingsuit. As long as the max size of the hole is smaller than the reserve handle, its not going to be swallowed no matter how you twist it.

I'll rig the suit up tonight and get a picture of what I'm talking about.

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