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Chris-Ottawa

First 3 jumps on my new Aura...with a small incident to share.

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You did ignore my questions earlier. I'm still wondering why someone who has enough experience (14 years?) to jump a Katana 97 and who was jumping a V4 last season would get so defensive when asked about his experience level (Zee's question on the first page). Why wouldn't you just say "I have XXXX jumps and XXX wingsuit jumps. This 'incident' was more about currency than overall experience. Next topic."

That's where all this hostility started, and it just went downhill from there.

PS - Nobody needed to "try to make you look like an ass." You did that all on your own. Which is unfortunate, because you seemed like a reasonable guy for a little while there.

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I didn't ignore his question, I actually responded to it, but I avoided a simple direct answer intentionally. I also didn't get defensive about his question, I wanted to know what relevance it had to the first post. I know he wanted it just to prove what everyone thinks and attempt to make a point. Unfortunately, I still don't see the relevance.

So what I'm going to do is this. I'll pose 2 scenarios and you tell me what each one would do to benefit the original post.

*I'm not sure what the minimum required number of jumps are for an Aura, but based on Tony's website (the only one I can find numbers for) they call for 200+ minimum recommended jumps for an Apache Expert.

Therefore:

Scenario 1: I have the minimum 200 wingsuit jumps.

Scenario 2: I have 1700 jumps and 650 are wingsuit jumps.

Now, lets discuss how these numbers impact this specific thread. We have a "green" pilot jumping on an advanced suit and a pretty experienced jumper that certainly isn't your Jokke/Jeb/Jarno's of the world, but has a respectable number of wingsuit jumps.

If there is some sort of a revelation, and my jump numbers have that big of an impact on it, I'll post exact numbers on each of my suit progressions. This is the result I foresee, but am always open to being proven wrong.

Scenario one: "See, we were right, you don't have the experience, so you should downgrade to a Phantom because only we're good enough to jump Apaches/X's and Auras etc.

Scenario two: Oh...well, ummm...yeah, so I guess you just botched an exit and uhh...won't do it again. Thanks for sharing.



@Bluhdow: I think I was pretty clear in a couple of my posts above of what I want someone to man up for. Unfortunately, everyone knows that I'm right and won't speak up . So, whenever you're ready...I'll be listening so you can show everyone how badass you are.

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You are the worst and this thread sucks major d*cks.


Yet you keep coming back for more?
"When once you have tasted flight..."

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You posted this video so people (yourself included) could learn from it, right? If you really want people to learn from this, isn't it best to contextualize it as best as possible?

When we try to learn from an "incident" (for lack of a less severe term, in this case), we have to narrow down the causes. We try to find all the "links in the chain." Asking for jump numbers is just a way of narrowing it down. We either cross it off the list of possible causes, or we take it into account as one of the links. But when you limit the information you put out there, you limit the lessons that could (potentially) be learned. Isn't that completely counterproductive to the whole purpose of this thread? To me, it's totally paradoxical.

Besides, what do you stand to gain from withholding any information? What's the worst that'll happen? Your "Scenario 1"?

If you're withholding information just to avoid the possibility of reading something you disagree with, then maybe your skin isn't thick enough to be posting videos for honest critique in the first place.

It's just an internet forum. Who gives a shit? Lighten up, Francis!

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First of all...thank you for having an intelligent conversation with me. Now, we're showing some respect for each other and this is how it's supposed to work.

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when you limit the information you put out there, you limit the lessons that could (potentially) be learned.



I guess I don't see it quite the same way. I understand knowing my jump numbers might help in contextualizing the cause of the spin, but I think it's pretty evident that I'm not working with multiple thousands of wingsuit jumps here. I already said that these were my first jumps on this suit, and you know that I was last jumping a V4, before that, a Phantom2, before that, a Raptor, before that, an Intro (I'm thinking I had another suit in between the Raptor and the Phantom, but I can't recall for sure). Considering I'm jumping an Aura now...I think that it can be safely assumed I have "at least" the minimum required jumps to be flying it.

It seems like everyone wants me to say I only have 43 wingsuit jumps or something ridiculous. That's not the case. I have enough to be jumping the suit, but I still see no relevance in posting a specific number. If you think that I'm hiding because I don't have the required jumps, I can assure you that's not the case, but I also have no desire to prove anyone wrong. To be honest, there probably isn't a number I could say that would please everyone. I didn't claim to have tens of thousands of wingsuit jumps either. I also didn't lie on my order form to Squirrel. They know my last suit, and they know my jump numbers. Was I pushing it by jumping it the first day back from a winter break...certainly, but I already knew that and made a conscious choice to do it anyways. It's done, and I can't undo it now.

Hopefully that helps contextualize it a bit for you. I think you can make an educated guess at my rough jump numbers now.
"When once you have tasted flight..."

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To be honest, the assumption I had made was that you had adequate experience and the exit was a result of un-currency combined with new things rather than inexperience (which does make for a very good lesson, by the way, so I do want to say thanks for that reminder).

Having said that, I think it's more than reasonable for someone to ask for jump numbers as one piece of evidence in determining the "links in the chain." And it's also 100% your decision whether you want to share that information. But you really ought to be prepared to take some degree of backlash for being selective with the evidence you release. Those of us who don't know you personally do tend to make assumptions as to why you're releasing one piece of information but not another.

The biggest lesson I've taken from this? The internet will never give you the benefit of the doubt.

Oh, and I guess being current is a good idea too.

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Brilliant...a logical conversation with facts and respect. Thank you.

And just to hold true on my promise from earlier, I reward you with my specific jump numbers and progression. I'm doing this because it's in black and white if someone chose to search the forums, but also because the conversation was had with 2 of the posters from this thread who were chirping at me earlier for my inexperience. Unfortunately for them, it turns out that I have more WS jumps than either of them based on their own words. This just shows who we've got policing the skies: Bluhdow who possibly hasn't done a single jump on a mattress yet, and JBag who has 15 on an Aura, but THESE guys are the experts providing feedback? Don't get me wrong, I'm not lightyears ahead of these guys, but it's quite comical that they felt as though they were such pro's that they needed to assist in the critique. This just proves everything that I said earlier about the nonsense in most of this thread.

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=4570682;search_string=X-Bird%20Range;#4570682

Actually, the second poster in that thread has an interesting progression.

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I have: 2 jumps on a Birdman Classic, 2 jumps on a S3, 1 jump on a Phoenix suit (don't remember which one, 20 jumps on a S-bird, 2 jumps on an Apache, 50 jumps on a X bird



25 total WS jumps...then 2 on an Apache, then 50 on an XBird? Yikes... I thought my progression was a little agressive, but this...is insane.
"When once you have tasted flight..."

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Hah, wow. I would never have felt comfortable jumping an Apache with 25 WS jumps. But then, I've done some things that would get me flamed on here too...

To your point about hypocrisy: commenters in a public forum will inevitably have varying degrees of experience and expertise. Ultimately it's up to each of us as readers to decide which opinions to respect, and which ones to just ignore. There's plenty of both on here, that's for sure...

I do think withholding jump numbers contributed to the attitude in here that you were in need of our collective "advice," because (like I mentioned earlier) we tend to make assumptions to fill any information gaps. In that way, information gaps often end up being incriminating, which can lead to all these accusatory undertones and hostility that gets amplified with each round of back-and-forth.

Anyway, thanks for finally humoring us with the numbers. A little anti-climactic, but thanks nevertheless haha

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Chris-Ottawa

Honestly dude, if I go in skydiving, just like anyone else, people will speculate. The same thing they'll do for you. I could be jumping a 380 sqft canopy, hit a wind gust and have my canopy collapse, then tumble to my death from 400 feet up. Everyone will go back on here and claim that it was all because I didn't learn basic canopy techniques early on and I wasn't qualified to be jumping that canopy.

Whatever makes you sleep at night man...

The fact remains that almost no one has said anything that isn't basic knowledge or what I already covered in my list of mistakes. When I called people out on their comments, they pretend that they didn't say them because they realize how stupid it sounds. You're just repeating what others have said. There is no advice given in this thread (aside from DSE) that isn't basic, common sense and I already knew and posted about in my first post.

Please, man up and show me one post that I ignored and blew off the person's advice. You'll probably be quite embarassed to realize that I haven't, which makes you look kinda dumb. You enjoy trying to make me look like an ass, so grow some balls and prove me wrong.

Here, I'll even make it easy for you. Tell me which one of these I ignored, blew off and showed just how conceded I am.

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1)"PhoenixPlr" - Open arm wing first, then leg wing. Good point, I had no comment to disagree with that.
2) "Slater" - Don't rush exit...This was in my original post
3) "Davo" - Lots of side presentation, yep, in my original post
4) "The111" - I'm not convinced the plane's speed had anything to do with it. It certainly didn't impact the exit, but it affected my mindset, which I recognized in post #1
5) "DSE" - "No flaps isn't why you went out sodeways" Yep, figured that one out on my own, and I never said it was the cause.
6) DSE "Probably a good idea to get more current" - yep, in my original post
7) "Skow" - "isn't this rotation exactly what makes you rotated 90 to relative wind, as on the exit the relative wind is not from the earth but from the side? Ummm...what? My rotation makes the rotation? Yep...rotation usually does make rotation. Thanks for the advice Skow.
8) "Zeemax" - You weren't current and put the big suit on. Yep, this was in my first post too.
9) "Skow" - It is expected from any reasonable jumper to know certain things before upsizing. One of them is that during exit, relative wind will have much bigger impact on the bigger suit. Holy shit Skow, this is deep. Bigger suit = More material. I totally never considered this.
10) Flite - "square up in the door, knees together , elbows in and look at the wing while I exit - keep everything closed for a good 2 seconds". Good advice, but the video shows this is what I do, except I choose to exit slightly rotated.
11) "Airbornesid" - "a scary reaction a simple barrell roll " Yes, my mistake, an Asymmetrical inflaton is nothing more than a barrel roll and I failed to recover in .0003 seconds like Sid would. Anyone in the same situation would have never been able to stop that much better than I did. Certainly not a simple barrel roll.
12) "Skow" - "You have a rubber cord inside your legwing which you can pull and it'll keep the legwing up until it's pressurized". Wow Skow, 3 for 3. You're a master...and should probably put your RW suit back on. You're not qualified to jump wingsuits anymore.
13)"Jbag" - "I'm just going to say a bad exit by an experienced jumper looks completely different than going 90 left for some reason". Sorry, I'll work on my style . Jbag clearly missed that this was my second jump on the suit and I never claimed to have thousands of jumps leading up to it. Also, I will conform to JBag;s mandatory exit style, I must conform to fit in.
14) "Mikki_ZH" - "Crapy shitty exit and lack of skill to recover quick". That was the most helpful advice in the thread. Thank you. Haha
15) Butters - "I'm perfect! Let me tell you about my mistakes. Please don't respond with advice. Remember, I'm perfect!" But wait...I posted my "mistake", but you're saying I'm perfect. I'm confused. Which is it? Thanks for the advice?



Is what I mean, man, you are such punk attitude. I say not "dont rush exit" like what you wrote i say. I say

"Slow down is right, better exits that way."

Is much different thing, is about mind, not exit, but gets you better exit, plus you I agree wit - "slow down is right..."

so me you give shit cause with you i agree then give advice to slow down NOT dont rush exit, then you lie about what I say even though is right here in tread.

Ha ha funny guy, Now I go grow more bigger cojones, you no need my help to look like ass.
McConkey es Dios

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The reason people are questioning your experience is because of the content of the video that you posted. I just watched it again, and the weird thing is that you were totally stable for about 1.5 seconds out the door, and then out of nowhere you went into a crazy out of control tumble that last for several seconds until you spiraled out of the frame. A botched exit is one thing. Spinning out of control is another thing entirely, and it usually indicates the flyer either does not have much experience in general, or does not have enough experience to fly the suit he is in.

Chris-Ottawa

there is not a person in the world that could have prevented that spin caused by asymmetric inflation from continuing.



There are plenty. The best flyers don't get into out of control spins, ever. They just don't. Fuck, Jeb flew into a mountain and recovered from his instability nearly instantaneously. I don't consider myself one of the best, but I do know how to recover from a botched exit without tumbling wildly out of control. I'm going to post a photo sequence below of myself, from a jump which is very, very similar to yours. It is from roughly a year ago, after a long winter, my first jump on a new suit which was the biggest I'd ever jumped, and also involving a fast plane with a small door that I was not used to at all. I totally botched the exit. The relative wind caught my big legwing before I was even halfway out the door, and started to throw me into a fast tumble. 1.5 seconds later I was completely upside down, sideways, and facing up the line of flight. Another 1.5 seconds later I was stable and making eye contact with the guy who exited before me. A few seconds later we were flying side by side and smiling, and had a good 2+ minutes of flight together after that. :-)

[inline hoover_fucks_up.jpg]

Chris-Ottawa

There's a few people making some pretty steep claims in this thread, but I certainly don't see them posting videos of their mistakes and/or first jumps on anything.



Here's me, posting a video of my mistake.
www.matthoover.com/misc/hoover_fucks_up.mp4

If the people on this forum are as hypercritical as you make them out to be, then surely they will respond to my video of a botched exit, under nearly identical circumstances, with the same criticisms, right? If for some reason they don't though, I ask that you give my yet unanswered riddle another shot:

The111

Cute list, but you missed a poster. A pretty important one actually.


www.WingsuitPhotos.com

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This thread is AMAZING!!!! Thats what you get for putting a drop of blood in the shark tank ;) Its obvious to me that you should have never started skydiving in the first place based on a tiny shred of video that you posted to be helpful. I know exactly what you did wrong and I have never and will never do something so idiotic. Its good to see the old days of the wingsuit forum coming back at least.

I hope you enjoy your Aura Chris, its definitely the best suit ive ever jumped :)

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I'm not even going to speak to your shitty jump because you don't even understand what caused my spin and you think yours is the same. Better go back and watch my video...seems to me that you could actually learn something.

I'll have a conversation with you when you respond to my last question directed at you, that you conveniently ignored. You're either being handed a golden opportunity to prove me wrong and embarass me infront of all your buddies, or you know I'm right and are choosing to ignore it because you can't possibly admit that I am.
"When once you have tasted flight..."

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Sorry I know you're on the defensive, that post was actually sarcasm in defense of you. You had one bad exit and everyone is going nuts, it's hilarious. I have nothing to offer you aside from just do it like you probably do every time aside from this one.

Why did you pick my jump number as 212, just curious.

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Sorry man, I didn't catch the sarcasm and I am certainly on the defensive because the nonsense in this thread is actually upsetting that these people believe what they're saying. Your post sounded just like the other posts in the thread that make no sense. Knowing now that it was sarcasm...makes complete sense.

I'm glad I'm not the only one that thinks this whole thing is ridiculous though. It looks like 3 people now have some common sense in this thread. I made a mistake, I admitted it and shared the video. Now people are telling me that I'm ignoring their advice to "exit into to wind" or "exit upright because it changes the relative wind". Really? Do you even hear yourself? I even took DSE's relative wind thought offline with him. He responded with the same info as in the thread, which I unfortunately cannot make sense of. Then he flips out and refuses to try and explain it to me. So, the one piece of advice given early on in this thread that might have some merit, I try to further understand and DSE can't explain it in one attempt, so he freaks out and refuses to try any more. If it was really that good of advice, I am interested in hearing it, and it's unfortunate that he's not able to explain it in a way someone can understand.

Anyways, thanks again for seeing the reality in this thread.


As for your jump numbers, I got them from the thread we chatted through in December (with Bludhow and JBag who were trying to pretend to be one of the big kids in this thread). When you strapped on the Apache (same difference as the Aura), you had 212 jumps according to your post.

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My progression because people like to post that:

Classic 5 jumps
s1 20 jumps
s3 80 jumps
V2 20 jumps
s-fly expert 5 jumps
P2 30 jumps
V3 50 jumps
V4 2 jumps
Apaches 40 jumps
Colugo 10 jumps
Aura 2 jumps


"When once you have tasted flight..."

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hjumper33

Sorry I know you're on the defensive, that post was actually sarcasm in defense of you. You had one bad exit and everyone is going nuts, it's hilarious. I have nothing to offer you aside from just do it like you probably do every time aside from this one.

Why did you pick my jump number as 212, just curious.



I had a bad exit.
Instructor quote, “What's weird is that you're older than my dad!”

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Chris-Ottawa

the conversation was had with 2 of the posters from this thread who were chirping at me earlier for my inexperience. Unfortunately for them, it turns out that I have more WS jumps than either of them based on their own words. This just shows who we've got policing the skies: Bluhdow who possibly hasn't done a single jump on a mattress yet, and JBag who has 15 on an Aura, but THESE guys are the experts providing feedback?



I didn't post any advice and I certainly didn't chirp at you for inexperience. In fact, I rarely post anything that isn't sarcastic because I'm a sh*thead.

All I said was that you are the worst and this thread sucks d*cks.

I still think that's right.
Apex BASE
#1816

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Excuse me while I pop my head in the wingsuit forum right quick.....

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I'm not even going to speak to your shitty jump because you don't even understand what caused my spin and you think yours is the same. Better go back and watch my video...seems to me that you could actually learn something.



Says the guy with not enough WS (at least on larger suits) experience to a guy (and other guys in this thread repeatedly) with LOTS of WS experience who very well know and understand what caused and what can cause a spin. Why? Because they have the experience. Seems to me that if you calm down a little bit, YOU could actually learn something from THEM.

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I'll have a conversation with you when you respond to my last question directed at you, that you conveniently ignored. You're either being handed a golden opportunity to prove me wrong and embarass me infront of all your buddies, or you know I'm right and are choosing to ignore it because you can't possibly admit that I am.



Funny, because you are completely ignoring his video response to you. You said nobody was bold enough to post video of a botched exit, let alone a video of almost the SAME exit. He posted it. And instead of having an educated, calm, cool discussion about it, you respond childishly with, "I'm not even going to speak to your shitty jump." If you think that jump was shitty, what say you about your jump in comparison? You could take this opportunity to say "hey, 111, how did you regain heading/control that quickly compared to my exit? What can I do in the future to prevent what happened to me?" But nope......
Apologies for the spelling (and grammar).... I got a B.S, not a B.A. :)

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damn dude the last time i saw so much biting and yelping back and forth was in michael vic's backyard!!!!

chris - its the stupid ass internet. you know what you did on exit, learn from it, move on, and fly the FUCK out of that aura
gravity brings me down.........

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uberchris

damn dude the last time i saw so much biting and yelping back and forth was in michael vic's backyard!!!!



You and I definitely don't watch the same porn.
Skwrl Productions - Wingsuit Photography

Northeast Bird School - Chief Logistics Guy and Video Dork

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Haha, nicely said.

I think the thing that drives me so crazy about this whole thing and why I'm persisting is that the focus was on me. Not for the jump, but for the fact that I refused to share my jump numbers. The sad part is that newer jumps DO come here looking for advice, and when they see things like the utter shit in this thread, put there by seemingly highly experienced jumpers, they think that there getting good information. Unfortunately, what they don't realize is that this whole thread is nothing more that a dick comparison contest between other inexperienced wingsuiters (not necessarily everyone for those that dwell on minor details). This is why I'm frustrated and keep trying to instill some common sense into these "experienced jumpers".

I still love that I took the facts in this thread, put them in a single post, and not a single person in the thread will take the bait and prove me wrong. It's absolutely great to know that I'm right.
"When once you have tasted flight..."

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Interesting...I have to respond to his post, but he doesn't have to respond to the question I posed to him first?

You don't see a flaw in that logic? Is this the way you normally talk to people too? Ignore their questions, but demand answers to your own?
"When once you have tasted flight..."

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