Bending elbows

[skow 6]

Was thinking about that for quite some time. I've seen in some videos that in some cases pilots tend to bend their arm at the elbow, for some reason. Question is what is the reason for it? I'd assume (if done on purpose) to reduce the area of one wing, which would result in turn in that direction, but when comparing to e.g. lifting the other arm it would result in more altitude loss(?).

Example: 1:04 in the video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tD1e9hYj8XQ

Any thoughts?

[mccordia 73]

Nothing in this explanation is related to the actual video you posted. But more ment as general information:

A subtle bend in the arm is often used, to create a slightly more stable body position. Creating a hull-like shape with the body hanging in between the arms.

In terms of steering, its better to actually work with movement of the full arm, vs bending elbows. Using the whole wing as one surface, and only hinging at the connection point with the body. This causes cleaner and more efficient inputs.

Bending the elbow, especially on bigger suits can cause the armwing to also cup a lot of air. Adding drag, and causing you to fly less efficient.

Working with opposing pressure (pushing on the arm/legwing, opposite of the direction you want to turn) will also create more flat turns, that cause less altitude loss.

There are many techniques one can use to fly. Some more effective/clean that others. During proxi flights in the base environment, a lot of whats happening in terms of body movement tends to be instinct. For most people those movements aren't always the cleanest and most efficient inputs. But seeing as its usually diving a bit to hug terrain, its not always a big issues.

The responses are ones you can train with a lot of skydiving, and focus on technique. Flying relative to other people, and getting more assertive with your flying (dynamic flocks/acrobatics) can retrain your body, and make the effective/clean technique your standard method of maneuvering. For a lot of people, the focus on skydiving is often 'full performance flying' but all inputs and reactions are exactly the same when flying at 60 or 80%, and in a more dynamic style, teach you so much more.

A big factor in skydiving (be it solo, flocks or performance flights) is that, even at lower speeds, you can train very, very well as long as the forward speed is there. So almost always, flying with stretched legs. Even when arms are only at half power. In that configuration, all inputs you make, are the exact same as when you'd be flying 100%. But it allows you to train with others while having range left, and see what the exact results you get from what inputs.

Ive tried to talk a bit about similar subject matter in this video
ADHD Lifestyle 2

JC
FlyLikeBrick
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[C7JM 0]

mccordia

Ive tried to talk a bit about similar subject matter in this video
ADHD Lifestyle 2

Awesome video. I've got around 130 wingsuits jumps and this is really where I wanna go. 2-way dynamic flying just looks like so much fun!

[FlyingRhenquest 1]

skow

Was thinking about that for quite some time. I've seen in some videos that in some cases pilots tend to bend their arm at the elbow, for some reason. Question is what is the reason for it? I'd assume (if done on purpose) to reduce the area of one wing, which would result in turn in that direction, but when comparing to e.g. lifting the other arm it would result in more altitude loss(?).

Example: 1:04 in the video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tD1e9hYj8XQ#t=1m04s

Any thoughts?

Here let me get that clicky for you.

I'm trying to teach myself how to set things on fire with my mind. Hey... is it hot in here?

[hjumper33 0]

I think it depends on the suit as well. I remember when the V3 first came out you could get better glide by bending a bit at the elbows to change the shape of the wing giving you a bit more speed which then created life. I did something similar in phantoms, but find it is less of a factor in bigger suits. Some people refer to this body position as "tunneling the wing". As Jarno kind of said, every suit is different, and every input is different.

[mccordia 73]

Quote

As Jarno kind of said, every suit is different, and every input is different.

Thats actually almost the opposite of what I said. ..

I fly every big suit (regardless of brand or make) with the exact same inputs I fly the tiny suits with. If you take the time to learn to fly with clean/minimal inputs, you will notice that those same techniques apply to any suit/brand/size/model.

On some suits the inputs need to be bigger (loose sleeve, less direct feedback from the suit) but again, exact same inputs. If you look at top level skydivers/basejumpers, you'll see almost all of them using those clean/small/subtle inputs, while flying their suits quite agile and limber in maneuvers.

Its all the same air, and same aerodynamics. But on big suits, the 'bad' techniques also tend to work, and be visable less during most flights, untill you're in a tight spot, and do notice those 5 ft more altitude loss on a sharp turn.

A big mistake people make, is thinking they need to go to big suits early in their wingsuit career, to learn to fly. But the visible difference in optimal range and movement in the sky on smaller suits make them much more suitable to learn those techniques. The more the wings correspond/move with what your arms and legs are doing, the more direct the feedback.

Much like driving a car, learning to maneuver is part of what makes you drive the car better at full speed. Slamming your foot down on the throttle/gas is not all you should focus on.

For many 'big suit flyers' who want to get better at flying, and went to those big suits early on in their career, spending some jumps in a smaller suit and learning how to milk it for performance in more active jumps with others, will give them a much bigger improvement (especially in terms of awareness/movement/agility) than those constant solos on a big suit.
In big suits, you tend to feel much less what you're doing. But also in terms of 'bad' flying, its harder to feel if you're flying well, as loads of fabric often compensate for lesser skill (in terms of fallrate/glide). But as a result, some people are also not accesing the full performance capabilities of their big suit due to that. And its harder to feel what effect the changes in body position have, compared to on a smaller suit. In the end, regardless of brand or suit size. You're flying your body, and many people would do better spending money on 100 more jumps another, even larger suit for their gearbag.

The skills you learn in a small suit, are all a 100% valuable basis for big suit jumps. And for sure, not time wasted.

JC
FlyLikeBrick
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[Skwrl 56]

mccordia

I fly every big suit (regardless of brand or make) with the exact same inputs I fly the tiny suits with. If you take the time to learn to fly with clean/minimal inputs, you will notice that those same techniques apply to any suit/brand/size/model.

Interdasting. I've noticed that I fly my Tonysuit very differently than I fly my (equivalent sized) Phoenix Fly. Sure, there are lots of common techniques, but there are also variances (which, I think cause people who start with one brand to often stick with one brand, because when they use the same techniques on a different brand, they don't get the same results and blame it on the suit).

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[mccordia 73]

Quote

I've noticed that I fly my Tonysuit very differently than I fly my (equivalent sized) Phoenix Fly

Thats often due to using a lot of bad/dirty flying techniques. Cupping wings and using hanging knees to break, rough big motions etc. While the proper technique (raising chest/head, altering angle of attack to a less steep angle) would also work perfectly fine, on any brand/model suit in your gearbag. On some the response may need a slightly bigger version of the same input. But the same moves regardless.

As said..there are many techniques one can use. And often people resort to the ones that come by instinct. All function, but some are very, very crude in comparison. And as a result, dont always work when you go back to suits that rely more on forward speed (be it smaller, or suits with a steeper trim/aoa.)

But if you retrain yourself, to make those inputs the more subtle, clean ones. You will become a lot more agile (flying circles around formations and stuff) and at the same time, benefit a lot in terms of improved steering technique when it comes to flying the bigger suits. Of course suit design does come into it a lot in terms of why you can do things with one suit, that you cant do with the other (how deep the armwing root is, legwing length etc), but even there...still the exact same inputs.

Its not saying that the 'less perfect' technique that most people use by instinct is wrong. But with a bit more focus on clean/optimal flying technique, things can be so much easier in the long run...and have an easier time switching suits..

JC
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[The111 0]

Many suits are cut in a way that does not allow a straight arm (more accurately, a straight arm AND a wing which is 100% extended). I mentioned it with illustrations here.

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[skow 6]

hjumper33

...a bit more speed which then created life...

Whoa, creating life. WS flying is more awesome than I though :D

[matt002 0]

I always found that with PF suits, the bend at the elbow helped to tension the arm wing and gave better max glide performance. I used bend at the shoulder to dive inefficiently for proximity flight.
I believe that PF suits required much more imput from the pilot to maintain good glide ratios and efficient flight, that is why many people struggled to get the higher glide ratios from the V3.
The 'mattress' class suit inflates into an efficient flying shape without much or any input from the pilot, I found that they were much easier to fly on the whole and that all the tricks I used on smaller suits did not have any effect on the large suit, they fly at near optimal glide with almost no effort, and keeping the suit stable while flying really steep becomes the art.
I don't agree that small suits will teach you much about the modern matress class suits.

[dthames 0]

Don't ever look at me and ask about bent elbows. After my first flight, video review, it was suggested I straighten out my arms more. With my elbows locked, I am about 15 degrees from my arms being straight. No way can I make my arms straight.

I fly with my shoulders rolled forward a little and my palms to the sky, which gives me an anhedral profile if viewed from the front, with my arms less than straight. It seems to work okay, but I often worry if it is challenging me i ways I have not noticed.

So all my flying is with bent elbows :)

I had to show my elbow issue to my drill sergeant too, who yelled, "Straighten out those arms" and thought I was ignoring him.

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[Klassen 0]

Jarno are you offering any coaching in US or Canada this year?

[WickedWingsuits 0]

I don't just think different suits fly differently but different pilots fly differently and still achieve the same end result.

This is art more than science.

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[Bluhdow 31]

WickedWingsuits

This is art more than science.

Disco.

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[mccordia 73]

Quote

I don't agree that small suits will teach you much about the modern matress class suits.

While if you re-read your own text, your in essence saying that the big suits dont respond to small body movements well. 'they fly themselves' is the same you could say for a huge canopy. But when it comes to harness inputs and small body movements, those are the things you feel a lot better when the canopy is smaller as well. And that one is by far the more agile one. And all the inputs one does on a small canopy, will work on the big one as well. Just needing the same input, but super-huge to have an effect. But not different in any way (subtle-ties aside)

All the tricks learnt on smaller suits work exactly the same on big suits. The input itself just needs to be bigger, and a bit slower. But similar to airplanes, where you also dont pilot a 747 before you learnt to fly, land, stall etc a cessna, smaller suits 100% sure are the better way to learn.

If you lack that finer control, for sure you can use a bigger suit to compensate. But thats the same reason why we're now seeing a lot of beginners jumping to big suits vs actually acquiring skills. And doing a lot of stuff they shouldnt be doing skill/experience wise as a result because 'the suit flies easy'. But that can catch anyone out at some point (in skydiving and base). People need to practice more than flying in a straight line. Regardless of suit size. Flying isnt just 'full glide' but its also learning the full flight envelope in terms of agility.

To clarrify:
When it comes to bending elbows, I dont mean the subtle curve/bend in the default arm position. But moreso, the maneuvres you make to actually steer/control the suit. Use the wings as a solid surface, and only make subtle corrections that steer/maneuver the suit in an effective way with small inputs (vs bending the full wing out of shape, and using huge break/speadup inputs to try and achieve what you want to do).

Quote

This is art more than science.

Actually, most top level pilots use the same optimal flying techniques. Aerodynamics are just pure science. Analyzing your flying more with that mindset, and learning which controls are the most effective will teach you a lot more than that 'disco' mindset...

And even from the art POV. isnt being as fluid, smooth and beautifull in terms of clean shapes and movements a thing worth striving for.

JC
FlyLikeBrick
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[skow 6]

mccordia

All the tricks learnt on smaller suits work exactly the same on big suits. The input itself just needs to be bigger, and a bit slower.

I have always had the impression that with WS it's exactly the opposite. With smaller canopy you have more speed. Just like with bigger suit you (usually) have more speed. So just like driving a car at 150 kph on the highway you don't turn the steering wheel like a maniac to change the lane, what could be on the other hand acceptable when driving 10 kph.

[mccordia 73]

Quote

I have always had the impression that with WS it's exactly the opposite. With smaller canopy you have more speed.

Actually those speeds are pretty much the same but the amount of surface you are trying to drag around the sky is double the size. Comparable from driving a small car to driving a truck. Bigger suits also have more fabric, and though they fly better glide ratios, they also have a lot more drag. If you put small people in bigger suits, they will become slower in forward speed in most cases. Often upsizing isnt the answer, but more training on small suits. Though the matras fanclub for sure doesnt seem to entertain that idea. I fly big suits as well, both in base and skydiving. And dont use a single different input going from small to big suits.

Look at PPC scores, top 25 have a lot of small suits as well, and look across the board, and you see small/big suits setting pretty much same forward speeds when you look at comparable glide ratios, and a guy in a small/tiny trackingsuit actually having the highest speed, ranking #1.

If you look at a small airplane vs a big airplane (same aerodynamics) the inputs of the smaller one are also much more direct. And the big plane is a slow hulking beast in comparison. Though people like to believe ninja tricks, magic fairies and unicorns make us fly, in the end you can look at every input, every aspect of a wingsuit, and the conditions in which we fly from a science/aerodynamics POV and get an equal (if not bettter) understanding of how we fly and maneuver. From there its still skill, experience and (suit and body) build that determines how we actually fly.

JC
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[mfnren 0]

Quote

Actually those speeds are pretty much the same but the amount of surface you are trying to drag around the sky is double the size

So you're saying a phantom 3 and a v5 flown by the same pilot, expert in both suits, are basically the same speed?

And another question. How many Tonysuits, Squirrels, S-flys, etc have you flown?

[mccordia 73]

If you look at PPC results, speed has a high percentage of smaller wingsuits in the top scores, and wind and pilot skill seem to be the final determining factor. So yes..in terms of speed its not 'biggest one wins' by far. Glide of course differs, but speed actually shows a tracking suit as the highest score. Doesnt get much smaller.

Suit wise Ive flown a lot over the years, but flying every suit on the market would be a fulltime job to keep up with

JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

[mfnren 0]

I see what you are saying about drag/size= speed. But that description kind of misses some things. Yes, pilot skill plays a large part.
If you compare small/large. Say a P3 and a V5 at a set glide angle, the small suit will almost always be slower (except for small angles) because it needs to fly at a higher angle of attack (producing more drag) to produce the lift to get to a set distance. A larger wing that produce more lift will be able to fly a lower angle of attack, therefore cleaner, producing less drag and faster...

[imsparticus 0]

dont think the rules for the speed contest stipulate a "set glide angle" or "set distance" to cover. im guessing this is how the smaller suits get around your problem.

[kallend 1,620]

mfnren

I see what you are saying about drag/size= speed. But that description kind of misses some things. Yes, pilot skill plays a large part.
If you compare small/large. Say a P3 and a V5 at a set glide angle, the small suit will almost always be slower (except for small angles) because it needs to fly at a higher angle of attack (producing more drag) to produce the lift to get to a set distance. A larger wing that produce more lift will be able to fly a lower angle of attack, therefore cleaner, producing less drag and faster...

Must be why jet fighters have such large wings, to reduce their drag.

Oh, wait...

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[nickfrey 0]

kallend

Must be why jet fighters have such large wings, to reduce their drag.

Oh, wait...

I don't get it, are you agreeing or disagreeing?

He never in any way said the larger surface area decreases drag...

And as a function of surface to weight fighter jets actually have quite large wings compared to large airliners...

[hjumper33 0]

Also, a jet fighter is a horrible comparison for a wingsuit. A fighter jet has horrendous glide compared to a large wingspan aircraft, but overcomes this by having an enormously powerful engine. So remember, whenever someone says they "fly like a fighter jet", it means agile with crappy glide.


Also, I will still completely disagree. The tricks I used in my V3/P2 are totally different than I used in my apache, and different than I use in my Aura.