0
rj2163

Anyone buy a Chris Kotscha (Freefalljump.com) wing suit in 2013?

Recommended Posts

they are....interesting.
Kevlar-infused parapack, very slippery. they do seem to fit well, I'll have one in a few weeks to put into the student fleet. I'll offer up an opinion that goes beyond one jump after that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
From the pics on the page, it appears that at least the "Glide" version has first-generation (read: old school BirdMan) arm inflation. While this works when flown properly, it proved to be problematic for inflation when a student/ novice wingsuiter was flying with elbows bent like in a "boxman" body position. The vent closes off when it lays on the inside of your shoulder and bicep.

Chuck

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
DSE

.... I'll have one in a few weeks to put into the student fleet...



DSE - Did you order the suit from Chris? If you did, could you please tell me when you ordered it and what you were told the expected delivery date would be?

I'd really appreciate it.

rj

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I did order it as a test suit for students in our fleet; it appears to be very tough/rugged in make. How it flies... we'll see. One jump is't a lot.
Delivery time was said to be "a few weeks." I didn't push for anything more specific.
Of all the manufacturers, I'll say they take more measurements than anyone, including for a Vampire. I don't yet know what those measurements will yield.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
DSE - would you mind telling us the approximate date that you ordered the wing suit and I would apprecaite knowing when you get it.

A couple of us ordered our suits in May after Chris gave a wingsuit course at our DZ. One person recieved her's about two weeks ago - wrong colors and didn't fit (Chris measured her).

I don't have mine yet.

thanks.
rj

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Have you tried contacting him to see where your suit is? I have done business with him in the past, latest being last September when he told me he was going to start making his own suits. I never had any issues and he always kept in touch via email as to where my stuff was. I have never seen any of these suits in person but the suit I bought from him was an old school skyflyer 1 with a "replaced" wider leg wing. I had to fix several things so Im guessing he used the suit as a test run. It looks exactly like his Glide suit, grippers and all so I'd say its kinda like a Skyflyer 1.2.


Im gonna need a bigger hammer....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Have you tried contacting him



This would have been my first choice, but different people take different routes. I have passed along this thread to Chris and I expect he will provide a response to you via PM, or maybe the thread.

FWIW: Chris is a friend and his suits seem to be well built. He has devoted basically all of his time to bulding freefall suits, and more recently, very economical wingsuits. I have yet to fly one though... (hint, hint Chris...)

I'm certain it's a very simple misunderstanding/miscommunication.
"When once you have tasted flight..."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The Skyflyer is what inspired me to build a better suit! It was a wobbly thing to fly but changing the leg wing fixed all that.

The glide has a similar look but flies sooo much better. We developed a new method of inflation. the internal cut of the wing is designed to create a micro vortex by the inlet. this causes a low pressure and creates a "vacuum" effect once the wing is inflated, this allows the wing to reach max normal air rammed pressurization and then it will "draw" in more air, increasing the pressure that much more. More pressure equals a more rigid wing, more differential and more lift!

To reach me an email to [email protected] is the easiest way. Or you can send a general email to [email protected] for an even faster response as I am in the air most days and sometimes (after receiving 70+ emails) it takes me a day or two to respond to everyone.

At the time of Chicks rock we were quoting a 12 week delivery.
Downsizing is not the way to prove your manhood.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

We developed a new method of inflation. the internal cut of the wing is designed to create a micro vortex by the inlet. this causes a low pressure and creates a "vacuum" effect once the wing is inflated, this allows the wing to reach max normal air rammed pressurization and then it will "draw" in more air, increasing the pressure that much more. More pressure equals a more rigid wing, more differential and more lift!



You're creating a lower pressure inside the wing to create a higher pressure inside the wing? That makes complete sense and sounds totally plausible.

:|
Do you want to have an ideagasm?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
J-Rock

Have you tried contacting him to see where your suit is?



Yes I have been in touch with Chris…..

Chris gave a wingsuit course May 11 Weekend at our DZ. He didn’t have a suit that fit me but fortunately the DZO had a Phantom 2 that fit. I had a great flight. Chris said his suits were similar. He had developed the suits with a couple engineers that had worked on the F-35, some aspects of the design were developed with computer models of the suit flight dynamics and had patented some of their ideas. Initially they were made over seas but now they were being made by a couple guys in Calgary. This all sounded great so I ordered a suit. The suits took about two weeks to make but delivery at that point was 13 weeks.

June 26 – emailed Chris with my color pattern – black and yellow.

The following are snippets from emails from Chris in response to me basically asking “where’s my wing suit”.

Aug 21 (week 14) "Hi Rob,For the wingsuit we made a slight design change to increase the efficiency in flight and it should be done in approx. 14 days. I know that will be 3 weeks later then the delivery dates but I know you'll love the new mod as it increases lift by almost 15% and is awesome! I apologize for the delay, we really wanted to be 100% sure the mod would hold up to stress testing".

Aug 28 (week 15)- "Hi Rob, There was an issue with the dye on this batch of yellow parapac/Kevlar blend. We can either wait for a new batch (4 weeks min!) or build the wings with another colour of black, white, red or blue. Any of this colours appeal? Won't take long to sort out the suit once we choose a colour".

Aug 29 (week 15) "Hi Rob, The main body is done and they had started on the wings.... Till I noticed it was puke yellow/orangey and not at all what you would like."


Note: I phone and talked to Chris and he explained that he had a couple women working in a commercial space in Edmonton, Alberta and they had basically completed the suit. He happened to visit Edmonton and noticed the puke yellow color wings and knew I wouldn’t like it so he had the wings removed and contacted me.

The problem with this is that Chris had this conversation with a buddy of mine in April – a month before I even bought my suit. I asked several times to get a picture of the partially completed suit beside some colors. I received pictures of colors, or someone else’s suit, but not a picture of the partially completed suit.

The yellow was sort of a lime green and my girlfriend liked it so I asked him to get a picture of the suit lying on it. Chris explained the material had been returned to the manufacturer. If I wanted yellow he didn’t know when he could get it and offered my money back.

IMHO I didn’t think the suit had actually ever been started but decided to go ahead anyway and get a black and red suit but it took a couple weeks to sort out the details.

Sept 18 (week 18) – “From this point I expect the suit to arrive at your door no later than 3.5 weeks”

Oct 21 (week 23). Hi Rob, I expected your suit to have been sent out. I will follow up. I understand that this has dragged on for a bit and I apologize for that. There was a lot of 'lessons learnt' and unfortunately most revolved around your suit.

Oct 21 (week 23) “Hi Rob, Your wingsuit needs a few mods to make it as robust as we expect it to be. So I've told the office that I want it completed this week and to do what it takes to achieve it”.

Oct 31 – (week 24) “Hi Rob, I heard some excuses as far as why your suit was not completed…” Chris went on to offer me some compensation with Free Fall clothes or my money back.

I’ve been busy, under the weather and deciding what to do so I emailed Chris today and we’ll see. I may post the letter that I wrote him because I ask some questions that other people might be interested in.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I decided to post the letter I emailed to chris today. Sorry but it's really long. I am doing this - because a few of us have gone through this at our DZ, there will probably be more, and if your going to get one of his wing suits, be aware of what happened with us.

Also, I refer to a "Values" page on Chriskotscha.com. FYI that is here - http://www.chriskotscha.com/values.html

--email sent to chris ------------

Sorry to take so long to get back to your 2013-10-31 email. I’ve been super busy and under the weather. I’ve also been trying to talk to some people and decide what to do and say. It’s long but here goes…

Offer to return money

I appreciate the offer but I’m also frustrated with that option. You have enjoyed the benefit of our money for over 6 months to run your business and finance your lifestyle. What do we benefit for our time, money and emotional investment (I’ve really looked forward to getting my wing suit) simply from you handing back our money after all that?

I was hoping you’d do well as it benefits all of us and it’s cool to have Frefalljump in Canada. However, I’ve ended up pretty disappointed. I have found that what you do and say is not reliable. You don’t seem to actually control what happens at freefalljump.com OR you are just telling us one thing then doing something else. I feel manipulated and mislead and you seem to have treated at least some of us exactly as you said you would not on your Business Values page on ChrisKotscha.com.

HOWEVER,

A buddy of mine went through similar frustrations but finally got his suit. He had to fix some safety and other issues (you say my suit will incorporate these mods), but he basically ended up happy with what he got for around $850. So, I have tried to separate my frustrating and disappointing dealings with freefalljump.com from the product that I hope to end up with and have stuck it out so far.

If you realize that:

- you are simply not up to this and cannot provide a suit to the standard you claim and get it delivered to me , OR
- you are having unresolvable design issues, OR
- you know that are going to go out of business in the near future,

THEN, I’d appreciate my money back asap.

Otherwise I’d suggest you honour your promises and commitments. I believed, trusted and invested in you. Enough talk - DELIVER.

Offer of Compensation – that is appropriate but I’m not interested in becoming more involved with freefalljump.com at this time by taking other product. Wouldn’t compensating me directly for the wing suit be more relevant and sincere?

What do we do now

I believe you told me it takes about 2 weeks to make a suit from start to finish. You said on August 15 that the suit was “almost ready”. Then on August 29 that the suit was 98% complete, the body was done but I had to select a new wing color. Then the main reason for delay was implementing some modifications. That was over 10 weeks ago! And I’ve been told every couple weeks since then that it will be ready in a couple weeks.

Could you please answer the following questions?

Q1 – Exactly what modifications are being done my suit as compared to (name blocked) suit? I know we already talked about this but has that list changed?

Q2 – Is my suit the same as (name blocked) suit or does my suit have additional changes? If so what additional changes?

Q3 - Have you delivered any suits that incorporates all the changes that will my suit will incorporate?. If so how many? I would like to talk to the buyers. I understand you probably cannot give me their information but I’d ask you to please pass my email to them and see if they would contact me to tell me about their suit.

**THIS IS A LONG LETTER SO I’VE FLAGGED THE FOLLOWING QUESTION AS IT IS THE MOST IMPORTANT ***

Q4 - Who is designing these modifications, doing the changes, verifying the work and testing the design changes? You are in the US for months spending your days flying, so it is not you. So who (names) is doing these things and what is their experience?

Q5 – If my suit was basically finished October 28, why has it taken an additional 10 weeks (and counting) to slap on the wings and make those modifications?

Q6. I’m curious about one other thing. You appear to drive around in your car with people’s partially completed wing suits for several weeks before delivery to the buyer but after it is supposed to have been made in Calgary or Edmonton or wherever the suits are made? What is that all about?

Guarantee

Our season is now over so I may not be able to jump and test this suit until next year. That sucks. The suits are going through a lot of modifications and I won’t even benefit from changes that happen between now and then. Given my concerns above I’d like the option to return it no questions for a full refund if I’m not happy with it.

However a buddy is going south for jumjps in a few weeks and if my suit is done I may be able to go with him. So I’d still like the suit asap.

Personal note:

There are statements on pages on ChrisKotcha.com that focus on creating the appearance of success and that will create growth. You are a super duper enthusiastic cheerleader for yourself, your product and freefalljump.com. However, there is another way to succeed and create buzz. Treat you customers with honesty and respect, take responsibility for the promises made to the people that trusted and invested in you and deliver a quality product on time.

I suspect what is going on is you had our money and are fulfilling newer orders, whether clothes, jump suits or wing suits, to raise money to scale up and expand. That’s always a dilemma for growing a small business. I’ve invested in a couple Kickstarter projects and I see this all the time. It might get you through a tough time but I don’t think it’s very ethical or good business. People that do that tend to suffer tremendous bad will at a time when their business is most vulnerable. But who knows what you’re doing.

Chris, I understand that you offer people money back and try to fix errors. That’s good but you need to keep your commitments in the first place. I wish you success. If you are successful it benefits us all. However, don’t lose your values in trying scale up and succeed. As your “Values” page on ChrisKotscha.com states that might be good in the short run but bad for you and your business in the long run.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Chris said his suits were similar. He had developed the suits with a couple engineers that had worked on the F-35, some aspects of the design were developed with computer models of the suit flight dynamics and had patented some of their ideas. Initially they were made over seas but now they were being made by a couple guys in Calgary. This all sounded great



I do tend towards the cycical but to me it sounds (like Chris's inlet claims above) like complete bullshit. Especially given the old school appearance of the suits on his website.

Quote

He didn’t have a suit that fit me but fortunately the DZO had a Phantom 2 that fit. I had a great flight.



Sounds like your course of action is clear;)
Do you want to have an ideagasm?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I hate to be negative, but I agree about the BS.
I checked out his site and suits.

I see a rough Phantom clone with an old Birdman-style tail, and a rough clone of an early Vampire.
I think some of these wingsuit startups would get more traction if they knocked it off with all the bullshit marketingspeak buzzwords. It actually drives away serious pilots. They're totally meaningless and this suit's got 'em all. "vortex", "wind tunnel", "software airflow analysis" "computer models of suit flight dynamics"...

All of which result in what look like completely ordinary wingsuits with completely ordinary performance no different than suits built just by skipping all the "engineer" this and "computer modelled" that, tacking together some fabric, flying it, and seeing how it works.

I mean, hey, if you wanted to build a spatula as an exercise in applying engineering techniques to something, that's cool, you can load the packaging with jargon like "ergonomically designed by finite element analysis computer simulation with patented "quattro-handle" for superior efficient performance" but in the end you're still just gonna have a spatula that works about the same as spatulas made the old fashioned way.

If anyone has actually applied advanced math, engineering, or computer modelling to wingsuit design in a way that has actually resulted in a perceptible improvement I have yet to hear about it or fly it.

Birdman is trying to make a comeback too, and so far, all I see is buckets of marketingspeak about "Birdman brand" this and that, a bunch of recycled designs from 5 years ago, and one slightly updated design that takes a few performance hints from current suits.

There's a bunch of jargon about "quattro-wing" and "DRS Drag Reduction System" and other crap thats supposed to define Bird-man (tm) brand suits and its all bullshit. There's this massive overdone obsession with branding, branding, branding, and a total lack of originality, performance gain, and if they still make em like they used to, quality.

I know, its total heresy to speak this out loud, but you could take their suit, cut the so-called "vortex deflectors" off the leading edges of the wings and it will make absolutely no difference to suit performance whatsoever. Same goes for their "quattro-wing", whatever THATS supposed to be, (I count 3 wings, myself) and their "DRS" which as near as I can tell exists only as a jargon phrase to support an acronym. You know you're getting desperate when you have to start with the marketing acronyms.
I don't pick my wingsuits by whether they're marketed to be sold in a mall fashion boutique between "abercrombie" and "aeropostale", I pick em based on whether they fly better than my current suit.
Period.
-B
Live and learn... or die, and teach by example.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Not to be just contrarian to this public lynching, straight out-of-hand, but...
Your very own timeline (as you are basing your "complaint") claims, don't seem to jibe:
Quote

June 26 – emailed Chris with my color pattern – black and yellow.




You then right from the get-go, begin your timeline progression:
Quote

Aug 21 (week 14)...



Uh... ???
Don't know how your calendar works where you are from, but mine says June 26 - Aug 21 = 8 weeks.

Just sayin'.
coitus non circum - Moab Stone

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote


Uh... ???
Don't know how your calendar works where you are from, but mine says June 26 - Aug 21 = 8 weeks.

Just sayin'.



I said that I ordered the suit May 11 weekend. Specifically, the clock started May 12 when I actually paid for it. Chris said this would put me in the queue as of May 12. So if delivery was 13 weeks (late Aug) and it takes 2 weeks to make, he needed to know the color pattern at least by early Aug. There was no confusion about that and I don't think it was an issue.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Whether or not the f-35 guys or computer model stuff is just marketing hype I don't know.

Regardless, I don't believe at this point he is trying to make a top quality leading edge product. I don't really think he's trying to have people believe that. He's trying to make a decent wing suit for a low price.

A buddy who finally got his suit modified a couple things and basically ended up happy with what he got for the price. (I understand those mods will be incorporated in newer suits.).

I'm a wing suit noob so I don't need top dollar leading edge. I'm kinda short and stalky so I thought it would be a bit hard to find a used one. I'd be happy with even an "ordinary" made to measure suit for around $850 for a couple years. A couple riggers and wing suit guys at our DZ looked over his suit and had some comments but the general opinion was for that price it seemed pretty good. Money's tight. So, I decided to give it a try.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
virgin-burner

pretty sure a phantom2 is in that price-range; intrudair's lineup definitly is!



Thanks, I'll look at the Intrudair stuff.

A phantom 3 looks like it may be around $1200ish usd(with back vent and parapack).

I think I will start looking into plan "b" so I started another thread looking for advice.
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=4561698;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread

When I met Chris we talked a lot and he seemed like a good guy. But I've mostly lost faith in him and whatever he says my attitude will be "I'll believe it when it happens". For certain reasons my jumping days may be numbered so even if I get my money back - I can't get that time back. I'm just sad more than mad about that.

I really don't think it is a big risk at this point but I'm becoming a tiny bit concerned about my money. I do believe chris is working hard to make a living at this and he's willing to return peoples' money or fix things if there are problems.

However I'd feel a bit better if there was a physical address for freefalljump.com. Chris explained he's basically homeless and travels from one skydiving gig to the next. when I bought my suit I believe he said a "couple guys in Calgary" made them. More recently he said he has a couple women in a commercial space in Edmonton, Alberta making them. Look at the map - Why Edmonton? What is the address of the commercial space? There are no physical addresses on freefalljump.com. Again, not very worried at this point but at a minimum I'm curious.

Originally he said he had some stuff made overseas. A buddy told me that he believed Chris was having stuff made by Frexer in Pakistan but I didn't ask. That doesn't matter. I only bring it up as a funny sidenote because if you haven't seen the "supper" man rw suit on Frexer you should check it out - priceless - I think they could use some marketing (and translating) tips :Dhttp://www.frexer.com/proddetail.php?prod=10011

Also, at some point it does become a matter of principle. Unless there has been some incredible string of misunderstandings, I do feel somewhat manipulated and mislead but I've tried to put that aside to save some money. But at some point it's not worth it. Jumping is my happy place and there are now some bad feelings connected to this. It would cost more but I may feel happier about it all in the long run moving on to something else if this doesn't work out.

On the chance I'm able to go to Eloy in a few weeks, maybe I could rent something and they had something that fit me. I'll contact them and see if they rent.

regardless Chris and freefalljump.com are MIA at this point so I'm not sure what is going on.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Q5 – If my suit was basically finished October 28, why has it taken an additional 10 weeks (and counting) to slap on the wings and make those modifications?



I was re-reading my earlier post and I noticed I had said the suit was basically done Oct 28. That is a mistake. It was basically done August 28. (I can't seem to edit the earlier post to correct this)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

0