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Skwrl

Problems with "Innie-Outie" Zippers?

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Squirrel and Tonysuits currently both use an "innie-outie" zipper system for both of the Squirrel products and many of the larger Tonysuit designs (including the current version of the S-bird and suits larger than that).

For those who have not seen it up close, the design involves two sets of zippers on each of the cutaway and reserve sides that allow the cutaway and reserve handles to be exposed (so that the suit can be used in skydiving) or covered up (for BASE). When skydiving, the zippers "bracket" the cutaway handle and reserve handle. If they are used in this way, the two zippers are connected by bungee cord, parachute cord, or similar means (I understand that this connection is inside the suit for Squirrel and outside the suit for Tonysuits).

The design makes me nervous; it seems like there's a possibility of the design either causing an accidental cutaway or reserve pull or the handles being sucked inside.

Over the last weekend, I had one wingsuiter tell me that he stopped another wingsuiter from jumping when he saw his innie-outie design had sucked in a handle the day before. That obviously could have been a catastrophe.

I'm curious what others have seen about this; has anyone had any issues with the design?
Skwrl Productions - Wingsuit Photography

Northeast Bird School - Chief Logistics Guy and Video Dork

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The best innie\outie I have used to date doesn't use zippers but instead has tabs\cables. Sounds like a step backwards but it works, by skipping a tab and putting the harness through it becomes far less likely that a handle can get sucked inside.

I had problems getting my zippers to stay snug around the harness and never felt really confident in it. I also like how the cable can expand during opening and reduce chances of a riser hang up on the suit creating line twists.

All in all with the tabs I feel more confident in my handles being available than when I use suit\rig combos that aren't tailored perfectly for each other.

When I get my suit back I will put up a photo.
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WickedWingsuits

The best innie\outie I have used to date doesn't use zippers but instead has tabs\cables. Sounds like a step backwards but it works, by skipping a tab and putting the harness through it becomes far less likely that a handle can get sucked inside.



It doesn't sound like a step backwards, it sounds far more secure.

What if you could combine both somehow? Use a zipper to quickly set the suit/harness relationship to where it should be, but then use cables or tabs with snaps to somehow lock it in place securely, the same way the old cable/tab systems locked things in place. That would give you the speed of zippers, but the security of tabs.
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I'm planning to add velcro backing to the zippers, similar to the way it is at the beginning of the zippers on Phoenix fly suits, at the final position of the closed zipper in outie mode. I'm not a fan of the bungee program, they defeat the locking mechanism of the ykk zipper by tensioning it and unlocking the zipper.

I also know at least one Apache owner with zippers, that just uses tape on the backside of the zipper to prevent it from moving.

Haven't had any problems that haven't been corrected before exit, though I have had to make adjustments in the plane due to unlocked zipper creep while sitting.

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ifell

Is it at all possible to buy a new suit without this whole zipper thing for the handles? Say I want to purchase an S-Bird, can I get it the way they used to be or no?



Funny you should ask that. That is what I ordered. Not what I got. [:/]

Miscommunication somewhere along the chain; these things happen. I'm sure Tonysuits will do the right thing and fix it, though.
Skwrl Productions - Wingsuit Photography

Northeast Bird School - Chief Logistics Guy and Video Dork

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WickedWingsuits

The best innie\outie I have used to date doesn't use zippers but instead has tabs\cables.

When I get my suit back I will put up a photo.



That would be great, because I'd really like to see this - I think I'd prefer this system over zippers alone.
Skwrl Productions - Wingsuit Photography

Northeast Bird School - Chief Logistics Guy and Video Dork

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ifell

Is it at all possible to buy a new suit without this whole zipper thing for the handles? Say I want to purchase an S-Bird, can I get it the way they used to be or no?



For TonySuits NONE of the *Bird series is changed at all, the design of the wings to body doesn't even lend itself to the benefits.

Only the Apache series of suits has this design and then you only need it if you are going to use it for skydiving.

It used to be that I preferred the X3 over the Apache* because of the handle solution, now with the cable I prefer the Apache as I find really puts the handles in a prominent position.
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The111

***The best innie\outie I have used to date doesn't use zippers but instead has tabs\cables. Sounds like a step backwards but it works, by skipping a tab and putting the harness through it becomes far less likely that a handle can get sucked inside.



It doesn't sound like a step backwards, it sounds far more secure.

What if you could combine both somehow? Use a zipper to quickly set the suit/harness relationship to where it should be, but then use cables or tabs with snaps to somehow lock it in place securely, the same way the old cable/tab systems locked things in place. That would give you the speed of zippers, but the security of tabs.

It would work for a lot of people I think.

I know on my rear zippers there is velco\tab to hold it in place but 9 times out of ten opening forces move it up. You need that "give" to prevent damage to the suit.

One of the things to consider are the forces at work on these zippers during opening. A few have blown out maybe from opening or maybe a defective zipper. I think it looks better also because it can match the color of the body instead of just black or white options. Looks are what matters right?

Don't get me wrong, I am not a designer, I just know this subject because I went through a lot of modification to my handle system until I was very satisfied.
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Quote

It doesn't sound like a step backwards, it sounds far more secure.



This is absolute truth. Just ask the two guys I personally know of who both lived through jumps where they neglected to step through their legstraps in "old school, lace-up" suits. One was a guy at Perris and one did it at WFFC.

I really love the fact that "new design", zip-on suits are so easy to rig up, but none of those designs do as good a job of holding a rig in place.

Chuck

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WickedWingsuits

For TonySuits NONE of the *Bird series is changed at all, the design of the wings to body doesn't even lend itself to the benefits.



Oh, how I wish that were so. Check the attached pics of a brand spanking new S-bird placed over my old S-bird. You'll note it has innie-outie zippers.
Skwrl Productions - Wingsuit Photography

Northeast Bird School - Chief Logistics Guy and Video Dork

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Skwrl

***For TonySuits NONE of the *Bird series is changed at all, the design of the wings to body doesn't even lend itself to the benefits.



Oh, how I wish that were so. Check the attached pics of a brand spanking new S-bird placed over my old S-bird. You'll note it has innie-outie zippers.

Maybe some confusion over the names here; (old) S-Bird & (new) S-Bird 2 which became the Apache Scorpion once the design was finalised and is possibly why Simon referred to all * Bird models, as not changing?
I've got the Apache Scorpion with the lace up front instead of zips, I wasn't sure at first about the system more about time to hook it up than anything. However the handles seem secure, I've had a good look & feel, before, during and after deployment- all seems fine and it only takes a couple of seconds extra to hook up than my R-Bird.
I could be wrong about all that though but it's an awesome suit though, I'm getting 2 minute flights in 4500ft of altitude and I'm not that good.

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Skwrl

***For TonySuits NONE of the *Bird series is changed at all, the design of the wings to body doesn't even lend itself to the benefits.



Oh, how I wish that were so. Check the attached pics of a brand spanking new S-bird placed over my old S-bird. You'll note it has innie-outie zippers.

That isn't an S-Bird or Bird series. It is the Apache Scorpion which was called an S2 during prototying. Note, no Bird in the S2.

If you get an I Bird, T Bird, R Bird, S Bird or X Bird you won't get the innie option and there will be zippers attaching the arms to the body.
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WickedWingsuits

******For TonySuits NONE of the *Bird series is changed at all, the design of the wings to body doesn't even lend itself to the benefits.



Oh, how I wish that were so. Check the attached pics of a brand spanking new S-bird placed over my old S-bird. You'll note it has innie-outie zippers.

That isn't an S-Bird or Bird series. It is the Apache Scorpion which was called an S2 during prototying. Note, no Bird in the S2.

If you get an I Bird, T Bird, R Bird, S Bird or X Bird you won't get the innie option and there will be zippers attaching the arms to the body.

and yes...it is very confusing!
Summer Rental special, 5 weeks for the price of 4! That is $160 a month.

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Good God. As someone who hasn't strayed far from the PF lineup I've always been very interested in the TS style and technology. It's definitely a different approach where suits are constantly changing and evolving. Seemingly on a daily basis.

That said, from a customer standpoint, there's a strong case to be made for the PF and Squirrel strategies. R&D followed by a product release in an orderly and understandable fashion.

This isn't meant to slam any company. Different styles of suit, different styles of flight, different styles of production. I would think it prudent though to keep the website updated and accurate for your customer base.
Apex BASE
#1816

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Bluhdow

. . . R&D followed by a product release in an orderly and understandable fashion . . . .



Yeah, but this way you can tell everyone that you're a Tonysuit test pilot.
Skwrl Productions - Wingsuit Photography

Northeast Bird School - Chief Logistics Guy and Video Dork

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Skwrl

***. . . R&D followed by a product release in an orderly and understandable fashion . . . .



Yeah, but this way you can tell everyone that you're a Tonysuit test pilot.

Test Pilots get paid, not the other way around.

Tony, you hiring?:)
50 donations so far. Give it a try.

You know you want to spank it
Jump an Infinity

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