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johooz

LODI wingsuit ban

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parachutist

***
This lead to bill to prohibit WS to everyone. I have been trying to get him to consider more strict rules and regulations but it seems like he had had enough with wing suiters.



In the not-too-distant past... maybe 3 months ago... you stopped by our DZ and you didn't like our WS rules. One of the most basic rules: You must have a log book. You were made aware of these rules before you even drove to our DZ, but you didn't produce a log book. We also require personal approval from the DZO. He asks you some questions, checks you out to make him confident you won't wreck the airplane, etc. Our DZO was out of town that day.

You filmed a video on your way home, saying you'd been wrongly discriminated against as a wingsuiter, and you shared that with FB. Because you had been made aware of these rules before you came here, and you didn't bother to schedule an appointment with the DZO or bring a log book, I don't believe a word you're saying about trying to convince Lodi to use strict rules.

Maybe if you had a USPA license with WS license/rating/whatever listed in plain view, manifest attendants everywhere would be able to give you a thumbs-up, knowing that you were ready to fly at their DZ. At this point, however, all DZ's must create their own hoops for WS'ers to jump through, or create walls that WS'ers can't go through in order to satisfy their concerns.

medusa


I will be jumping and expanding to other dropzones around the area. More and more jumpers are going to Davis and we had 9 WS pilots the other day during a weekday. ;)

I hope this helps



I hope that works for you. Eventually you may run out of new playgrounds, unless some quality WS training gets standardized and broadly accepted by DZOs. In USA the only way I'd expect that broad acceptance would be as part of the USPA licensing system.
Quote




I know Medusa .... A Wingsuit Guru .... would be too modest to post his vid, so I will.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VeuLK7dZgJI ... Enjoy

Life is short ... jump often.

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jumpsalot-2



I know Medusa .... A Wingsuit Guru .... would be too modest to post his vid, so I will.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VeuLK7dZgJI ... Enjoy



Even Jay Stokes keeps a logbook of sorts, and manages it fine.
Kinda bullshit for anyone to think they're above whatever rules a DZ wants to enforce. In this case, the guru knew the rules before visiting the DZ.
Kinda interesting, the contrasts. Jon DeVore shows up at our DZ with his new wingsuits. He shows cards, e-logbook, goes through the entire briefing. Didn't ask for specials even though he's exceptionally well-known. Humble, complied with all rules, did his thing, had good words, left us with a smile because he enjoyed our DZ, aircraft, and wingsuit program.

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jumpsalot-2


I know Medusa .... A Wingsuit Guru .... would be too modest to post his vid, so I will.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VeuLK7dZgJI ... Enjoy



If somebody shows up at a new DZ and says "that's me on the video, the one wearing a WS and a mask you can't see through"... What exactly are you saying this video is good for? Manifest doesn't need to spend time sorting through someone's claims.

The videos/etc were only fluff anyway. As I said earlier the logbook could be bypassed with a phone call to verify experience. There was only one requirement that couldn't be bypassed: interview with the plane owner. An interview wasn't scheduled, and it was bad timing so it didn't work out.

For most people that would be the end of it: Oh well, maybe I'll plan better next time. That's why I was laughing while watching the video blog Jhonathan made after he left. He seemed to be moaning very similar to the guy he'd been making fun of just weeks before. "my shoe laaaaaaccceee" ... "I can't fly my wiiiingsuuuuit".

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mccordia

***What is this "logbook" people are speaking of? :|



Its a document where I note which jumps I made with which students, how many jumps are on my main, and in general the places Ive been. Fun to read back.
And if somebody asks, where I can look up data on these students regarding how they did, and if they passed their FFC etc.

Those sound like good reasons to have one. I have a spreadsheet with jump number, place, aircraft, and date so that I can keep track of of the basics ...
"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

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DSE

***

I know Medusa .... A Wingsuit Guru .... would be too modest to post his vid, so I will.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VeuLK7dZgJI ... Enjoy



Even Jay Stokes keeps a logbook of sorts, and manages it fine.
Kinda bullshit for anyone to think they're above whatever rules a DZ wants to enforce. In this case, the guru knew the rules before visiting the DZ.
Kinda interesting, the contrasts. Jon DeVore shows up at our DZ with his new wingsuits. He shows cards, e-logbook, goes through the entire briefing. Didn't ask for specials even though he's exceptionally well-known. Humble, complied with all rules, did his thing, had good words, left us with a smile because he enjoyed our DZ, aircraft, and wingsuit program.

I wasn't asked for a log book at your DZ. Never have been.
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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Thanks to all for the constructive replies!
it was a very entertaning thread.

we will be doing a round trip now. starting in SFO. going via LA to Elsinore and Perris, the great nationalparks to Lodi, Byron and Davis.
Will be a fun trip and hoping to meet some of you guys!

If Bill suddenly decides to warmly welcome wingsuiters again please let us know ;-)

cheers joggl

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I was just there this weekend and it looks like wingsuits are cool again, with a few stipulations. There were a few signs posted around, and I forgot to grab a picture, but if I remember correctly the rules were:

- No suits larger than a V4 or S-bird.
- All suits need to be approved by either Pete, the local rigger, or Ed, the wingsuit instructor.

Also, there were at least three wingsuit jumpers down there on Sunday, so it would seem that wingsuits are good to go.

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thex2000

I was just there this weekend and it looks like wingsuits are cool again, with a few stipulations. There were a few signs posted around, and I forgot to grab a picture, but if I remember correctly the rules were:

- No suits larger than a V4 or S-bird.
- All suits need to be approved by either Pete, the local rigger, or Ed, the wingsuit instructor.



I love it. Classic example of how legislation leads to unintended consequences and very frequently the opposite of the desired result:

No big suits will deter skilled pilots. So only new and intermediate pilots will go there.

Who's more likely to land off? You guessed it. Not the guys in X-Birds with 500 WS jumps, but the newer guys in Phantoms.

My hypothesis is that this rule will increase the percentage of off-landings relative to the number of WS jumps made.
Apex BASE
#1816

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No big suits will deter skilled pilots. So only new and intermediate pilots will go there.



This statement shows exactly whats wrong with the discipline.
Skill is not related to suit size/selection. And quite often, the big suits show the opposite.
Its actually a rule that will force people to work on becoming skilled pilots vs fabric for compensation...

Most skilled ws pilots can be seen flying smaller/intermediate suits on the dropzone just as often as bigger suits. There's so much more to being a complete pilot than just time/distance (which again, is just as possible in smaller suits as well)
JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

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Skill and suit size aren't perfectly correlated to one another. It's very possible to be a good pilot in a small suit and a bad pilot in a big suit. That said, a ban on big suits will disproportionately impact pilots with higher jump numbers and more experience.

No matter how you shake it, you're limiting people's options. And the more experience you have the more likely it is that your suit is on the banned list.

People will have two options:

1. Go your route and say "Hey, this is an opportunity for me to get even better on my small suit!"

or,

2. Say "F*ck this place, I'm going somewhere else."

My hallucination is that the second option will appeal to more people. But I don't jump at Lodi and I have no dog in this fight, so whatever.
Apex BASE
#1816

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Bluhdow

Skill and suit size aren't perfectly correlated to one another. It's very possible to be a good pilot in a small suit and a bad pilot in a big suit. That said, a ban on big suits will disproportionately impact pilots with higher jump numbers and more experience.

No matter how you shake it, you're limiting people's options. And the more experience you have the more likely it is that your suit is on the banned list.

People will have two options:

1. Go your route and say "Hey, this is an opportunity for me to get even better on my small suit!"

or,

2. Say "F*ck this place, I'm going somewhere else."

My hallucination is that the second option will appeal to more people. But I don't jump at Lodi and I have no dog in this fight, so whatever.



You're probably right about the options. And you're entirely right about bad pilots in big suits/good pilots in small suits.
However, as many DZs will quickly point out, *most* of the problems come from jokers in big suits too soon, landing off or creating problems for other wingsuiters simply because they can't bother to take the time to get their skills on a fractional percentage par with their ego. There are some guys who can actually fly big suits well. There are huge flocks of them who cannot.
This video https://vimeo.com/76577431 demonstrates a "world class pilot" in a Squirrel Swift, who frequently lands off during coached jumps. You're entirely right. There are crappy pilots in small suits. But on the whole, I'll wager that there are a lot more poor pilots in big suits than in small suits.
If nothing else, at least WS is once again possible at Lodi. Kudos to the people that have worked to bring wingsuiting back to that DZ.

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The unfortunate reality of option 2 is that this time of year Lodi is really the only area DZ that has reliable weekday (turbine) business. Now that select suits are back it splits the already small number of active weekdays pilots up. Real bummer for those of us that would like to train in our "big" suits and don't have weekends to jump. I have no problem jumping a smaller suit for fun, it's just not my current focus.

In an ideal situation it would be more about screening the Pilot and less about which suit, but that means someone has to play bad guy and tell people (probably a friend) that they are not prepared to fly their magic carpet yet. Much easier and PC to just draw an arbitrary line in the sand. Unfortunate though, would make a great chance to enlighten a few folks about their perceived skill level. (and if someone who knows me thinks I fall in to this category I hope they would step up and tell me)

There are plenty of people that can cause problems in small suits. Probably far more then there are that will cause problems in big suits, with the exception being the ones that caused a majority of the initial problems. BASE jumpers that show up with improper gear to put one or two jumps on their new suit before heading back out to BASE jump it.

Glad to see some progress has been made there and thanks to Ed and Pete for making it happen, and to Bill for giving us another (third) chance. Hopefully those jumping there are being smart about it, respecting the rules and keeping Bill happy so we can see a full return soon.

Anyone know the official word on Tracking Suits?

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nickfrey

The unfortunate reality of option 2 is that this time of year Lodi is really the only area DZ that has reliable weekday (turbine) business. Now that select suits are back it splits the already small number of active weekdays pilots up. Real bummer for those of us that would like to train in our "big" suits and don't have weekends to jump. I have no problem jumping a smaller suit for fun, it's just not my current focus.

In an ideal situation it would be more about screening the Pilot and less about which suit, but that means someone has to play bad guy and tell people (probably a friend) that they are not prepared to fly their magic carpet yet. Much easier and PC to just draw an arbitrary line in the sand. Unfortunate though, would make a great chance to enlighten a few folks about their perceived skill level. (and if someone who knows me thinks I fall in to this category I hope they would step up and tell me)

There are plenty of people that can cause problems in small suits. Probably far more then there are that will cause problems in big suits, with the exception being the ones that caused a majority of the initial problems. BASE jumpers that show up with improper gear to put one or two jumps on their new suit before heading back out to BASE jump it.

Glad to see some progress has been made there and thanks to Ed and Pete for making it happen, and to Bill for giving us another (third) chance. Hopefully those jumping there are being smart about it, respecting the rules and keeping Bill happy so we can see a full return soon.

Anyone know the official word on Tracking Suits?



Anyone know the official word on Tracking Suits?
sounds smaller than an s-bird to me
BASE 1519

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"In an ideal situation it would be more about screening the Pilot and less about which suit, but that means someone has to play bad guy and tell people (probably a friend) that they are not prepared to fly their magic carpet yet. Much easier and PC to just draw an arbitrary line in the sand. Unfortunate though, would make a great chance to enlighten a few folks about their perceived skill level. (and if someone who knows me thinks I fall in to this category I hope they would step up and tell me) "

"Glad to see some progress has been made there and thanks to Ed and Pete for making it happen, and to Bill for giving us another (third) chance. Hopefully those jumping there are being smart about it, respecting the rules and keeping Bill happy so we can see a full return soon."

Hi, Pete Swan here,meet one of the "Bad Guy's". Hey, not trying to piss in anyone's cornflakes here, but the jist of it is there a lot more cutaways with the biggest suits. Mostly when ill-prepared jumpers get one and don't upgrade the rest of their gear to match it. Bill was getting tired of parachutes in good condition having to be cut away because of small pilotchutes and smaller sized mains that would work "okay" with a Phantom or other medium size suits. Then the shit show of people flying around in cars on private property looking for gear. When you add the bigger burble of the bigger suits with the above, you hit a "tipping point" of reliability and the malfunction rate goes way up. We had to sit it out for the whole season, that sucked for me as my business is here and I can't just pick up and leave. So thanks, to all the folks who fucked up my WS flying this year....[:/]

So if you want to jump _any_ wingsuit here, you must get a checkout first. Your info will go in a card file and we will be tagging your rig. We are sticking with medium and smaller suits for a while to see how people behave. No tracking dives,with or without suits is allowed per Bill. Okay smartasses, yes you still must track away on group FF jumps for separation.

If you get a bigger suit there are other DZ's to get experience at with it. We don't have any sort of timetable for expanding the suit range as of right now. Believe me, I am less than thrilled to have to be semi-responsible regarding bird-flockery. I say that because pilots will be accountable. And yes, we have a "No fly" list of folks who have and continue to make bad choices. Sorry if this all sounds a bit Nazi, but WTF do you expect if someone come's and shit's in our yard then leave's???

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kallend

*Assuming* that landing off is the problem at Lodi:

Are there any data that show that "big suits" land off more often than "small suits"?



There's a related question here, because the causation/correlation thing isn't super clear. Another reason why people might land off is that they are MORE experienced (and, coincidentally, more likely to wear larger suits). I've known plenty of highly experienced wingsuiters who want to go chase puffies, when their less experienced counterparts don't want to risk it (a reasonable response).

(Not saying it's a good thing, I'm saying it happens.)

In short, just like you don't need a big suit for great performance, you don't need a small suit to avoid being a screw up.
Skwrl Productions - Wingsuit Photography

Northeast Bird School - Chief Logistics Guy and Video Dork

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PeteS

"In an ideal situation it would be more about screening the Pilot and less about which suit, but that means someone has to play bad guy and tell people (probably a friend) that they are not prepared to fly their magic carpet yet. Much easier and PC to just draw an arbitrary line in the sand. Unfortunate though, would make a great chance to enlighten a few folks about their perceived skill level. (and if someone who knows me thinks I fall in to this category I hope they would step up and tell me) "

"Glad to see some progress has been made there and thanks to Ed and Pete for making it happen, and to Bill for giving us another (third) chance. Hopefully those jumping there are being smart about it, respecting the rules and keeping Bill happy so we can see a full return soon."

Hi, Pete Swan here,meet one of the "Bad Guy's". Hey, not trying to piss in anyone's cornflakes here, but the jist of it is there a lot more cutaways with the biggest suits. Mostly when ill-prepared jumpers get one and don't upgrade the rest of their gear to match it. Bill was getting tired of parachutes in good condition having to be cut away because of small pilotchutes and smaller sized mains that would work "okay" with a Phantom or other medium size suits. Then the shit show of people flying around in cars on private property looking for gear. When you add the bigger burble of the bigger suits with the above, you hit a "tipping point" of reliability and the malfunction rate goes way up. We had to sit it out for the whole season, that sucked for me as my business is here and I can't just pick up and leave. So thanks, to all the folks who fucked up my WS flying this year....[:/]

So if you want to jump _any_ wingsuit here, you must get a checkout first. Your info will go in a card file and we will be tagging your rig. We are sticking with medium and smaller suits for a while to see how people behave. No tracking dives,with or without suits is allowed per Bill. Okay smartasses, yes you still must track away on group FF jumps for separation.

If you get a bigger suit there are other DZ's to get experience at with it. We don't have any sort of timetable for expanding the suit range as of right now. Believe me, I am less than thrilled to have to be semi-responsible regarding bird-flockery. I say that because pilots will be accountable. And yes, we have a "No fly" list of folks who have and continue to make bad choices. Sorry if this all sounds a bit Nazi, but WTF do you expect if someone come's and shit's in our yard then leave's???



If the pilot is that lousy at deployment and poor body position and weak at navigation resulting in off DZ landings then gear mods will likely be irrelevant. Sounds like a healthy bit of self policing was needed to stop sub several hundred jump wonders flying super suits. I have personally found a modern container system does not require extended bridles and the basic guide on not flying HP canopies has been around for donkeys years. I still fly the same set up I did for my classic a javelin standard deployment normal bridle length and PC and a spectre 120; It deploys happily on my Viper, Xwing, GS1, Stealth, Venom, V4 etc
As ever comes down to people not trying to run before they can walk.:)
Dont just talk about it, Do it!

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" I have personally found a modern container system does not require extended bridles"

Please be careful with blanket statements like this. If an uninformed new bird decides "I don't need gear mods cause I got a modern container" they could get in deep shit really fast. This is an extremely subjective area, results depend on the user, the suit, and the way the user is flying the suit.

Requirement for extended bridle has nothing to do with whether it is a modern container or not.

I'm jumping a slightly dated Javelin NJ and a Tony Rebel. There is no significant functional difference between my old Jav and one bought yesterday. And I most certainly DO require an extended bridle. I only weigh about 135 lb, I tend to fall very very slowly, and I have a burble the size of nebraska.

If you're always falling very fast during deployment, you may not in fact need an extended bridle. But when I first began flying my Apache, when I deployed, at sub-30's fallrates, it sucked the PC back in, and landed it on my tail where it sat and did nothing.
Followup jumps confirmed the effect. For my first 10-12 jumps or so I had to manually kick the pilot chute back out of the burble to get it to go. 8.5 foot bridle, by the way.

This 2-stage soccer game deployment got real old real fast. I upgraded to a 10-foot bridle.
Trouble-free deployments ever since.
-B
Live and learn... or die, and teach by example.

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Lurch that is why I used the term "personally" in my response not a blanket statement. If people are gettinv there flying info from dz.com then maybe they should think about talking to a credible gear aware bird/instructor. I fly avery 34mph on my venom and sub 30s on viper but still find shutting wing off enables clean deployment, of course if your pitching straight from flight or without slight pause then thats a different ball game all together.B| p.s I am 180lb without gear which is a Jav oddessy 2008 and spectre 120.

Dont just talk about it, Do it!

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