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medusa

Wing Suits Gain Altitud. PERIOD!

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No, because doing that you always end at the same height or lower than where you started the "U" dive.

And precisely no one is claiming otherwise, which has been said here about 20 times already. The gain everyone but you is talking about is relative to the lowest point of the "dive".
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Mark as I said before I don't think that gain of altitude on that video was because of a dive and flare, firstly because there is no sharp dive on his glide path, secondly because he kept climbing for 6 seconds and for several meters, this amount of time climbing and height is simple not possible just by diving and flaring, only a thermal could be strong enough to lift him like that.

Right, so there is a mighty thermal that's always there, in the exact same place, on multiple jumps at that event?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gMkvPDd-8wE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=VigfXe1vhYg

And it also for some reason only affects the jumper, but not the smoke?
And entering it always for some reason corresponds with a change in body position?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Tu5Cyw8xlI&feature=player_embedded



Interesting valid points you have, it is possible to a place have a residential thermal given very specific conditions but it is unusual. I can't see the bottom of the mountain so I can't say if it would be the case or not.

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I have held off commenting on this thread because it's been so amusing that I didn't want to break anyone's concentration, least of all you, Lauren, as, agree with you or not, you've been on one heck of a roll, so thank you for the energy you've contributed to this discussion.

That said, the most amusing part of this whole thread has been the complete disregard for Jack J's #72 post that included his graph which goes to the heart of most of the "discussion" on this thread: You're talking about sustained altitude gain (which, as you say, can only be accomplished by non-powered aircraft through the use of thermals); most everyone else (as far as I can tell) is talking about temporary gains in altitude (caused by converting speed into additional lift).

I have attached that graph so everyone can see it again. I will also say that, from my personal experience under various parachutes, I can and have repeatedly gained altitude during dive-and-flare maneuvers, both high above and close to the ground. These temporary gains were achieved with parachutes that have glide ratios similar to some of the highest glide-angle wingsuits being flown today. Ergo, while I will not say unequivocally that wingsuits are gaining altitude during dive-and-flare maneuvers the way parachutes do, it is certainly likely that they are because they have similar glide angles and far more speed (AKA energy) to convert into lift.

Having said all of this, let's get back to your most recent post, where the shouting has abated in favor of more focused discussion on what the videos actually do or do not show.

First off: I was at the Tianmen Mountain Grand Prix at which the jump in question occurred. I was one of the judges at the race, so I was intimately aware of all wind conditions at all locations on the mountain during every jump that was made.

I also watched the video in question the day it was made, and multiple other videos of the jumper in question and those of all the other competitors as well. So everything that follows is based on that knowledge, which is probably more extensive than anyone else on this thread, to include the jumper in question, who knows his own operational parameters better than I do, but not all the others as well.


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The smoke did move a tiny bit upwards but yes not as much as it would in a strong thermal, so your point is valid there.



There were no measureable thermals at any time during the practice or competition jumps. There was one "test jump" on Friday the 12th by Ludo Woerth when it was raining and partly cloudy where he did experience some wingsuit-flight turbulence that scared him enough to emphatically say "NO!" when I asked: "Knowing what you know now, would you jump again?" (Given that all the other competitors respected Ludo as one of the most bad-ass jumpers on the mountain, they all heeded his assessment and stood down for the day, so no other jumps were made in those conditions.)

Other than that, the atmospheric conditions at the site were extremely stable except for the approximately 24-hour period on Tuesday the 16th into Wednesday the 17th when the front blew through, when no jumps were made.

Also, given the nature of the terrain and its relationship to the sun position and the time of year, there was no thermal action at any time around the "climb point" area, and definitely no "residential thermal." That, of course, is one reason among many that this site was chosen for the event; a stable environment.


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I didn't see the other videos before, on the new videos you posted I can see that his body position did change, so there is a flare factor there, your correct.

What amazes me is how he manage to climb so high for so long ( 6 )seconds with just a sharp dive and flare?



Two reasons.

Number one, you can't always believe what you see on video. Most of the jumpers turned right -- toward the camera -- as they crossed the cable "finish line," which can in and of itself create the illusion of altitude gain. There was discussion about this point among the competitors that was as vigorous as the discussion on this thread (though considerably more good-humored and polite).

Number two: This was a speed event that resulted in 26-second flights focused on achieving maximum speed -- so the flare did not occur after a "sharp dive" but after a 2,600-foot sustained dive designed to achieve maximum speed. Therefore, the energy available to him to convert into lift -- and therefore likely temporary altitude gain -- was substantially greater than on "just a sharp dive and flare."


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I wonder what was the wind speed that day? was the wind direction head wind at take off? anyone knows? because a strong wind hitting the mountain will create a strong lift band, not strong enough to give him sustained flight but strong enough to help him gain height on his flare?



The windspeed during this jump and the others never exceeded about 5 mph at the landing area 1000 feet below the "climb point" shown in the video.

At my spot about 1/3 of the way down the course, and about 1500 feet above the "climb point," winds were even lower - essentially zero for the duration.


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The fact is that is hard to believe that he manage to climb all that height all that time just with a flare without any help of a thermal or ridge lift, unless the latest largest suits from Tony are REALLY that big!



As I said, the competitors themselves had spirited discussion about how much altitude they did or did not gain, but I tend to side with those who say "Yes, we did!" because they were in a very steep dive throughout the course, then flattened out to slow down and pull, thus converting an enormous amount of speed energy into lift energy.

To give you an idea of how much potential energy they had at their disposal, know this:

The jumpers estimated that the course angle was 1.8:1. Given that most of the suits flying at the race had glide ratios of 3.0:1 or better, they had a lot of energy built up and thus could convert that energy into a lot of lift.

One final thing to consider: When you do a "sharp dive and flare," you not only convert energy to lift, you add a lot of drag when you change your trajectory that radically over a short period of time. These jumpers did not do a "sharp flare;" as you can see from the videos, the dive-to-flare transition was more smooth than sharp, so less of their dive energy was lost to drag as they converted it into lift energy -- and a much longer than usual apparent climb interval.


44
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SCR-6933 / SCS-3463 / D-5533 / BASE 44 / CCS-37 / 82d Airborne (Ret.)

"The beginning of wisdom is to first call things by their right names."

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Well explained post Robin,I agree with every single word. You were there most of us weren't so the only thing we can do is discuss about it based on a video only, which is not enough. Its really amazing what these new large suits can do, hopefully will get even better.

Even although I Agree that on that specific video the small gain in height was due a long fast dive and flare as Robin described I do believe that is perfectly possible for a slim person in a very large suit to be lifted momentanously by a thermal when they fly trough it, same is valid for flying near a mountain with very strong winds ( ridge soaring).

Lastly Its clear that some guys here knows that non powered aircrafts need thermals or ridge soaring to fly and that dive and flare is not the way upwards, but I met and spoke with many jumpers who fly suits and believe me when I say a lot of them has no idea how a non-powered aircraft flies and they want to apply the same laws of powered flight to themselves flying a wingsuit, when a wingsuit is a glider ( no motor). The reason I'm so passionate about making sure that the wingsuit community knows clearly how non-powered flight works, its because we are in a stage when suits have enormous potential, they are becoming glider and if you know how to use gliding knowledge and apply this to your jumps or base jumps you could explore all its potential and stay in the air much longer.

Once again Robin thanks for taking time and coming here and explain to us what happened there, as you were there.

Cheers
Lauren
Lauren Martins - www.youtube.com/user/gisellemartins20

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Even although I Agree that on that specific video the small gain in height was due a long fast dive and flare as Robin described I do believe that is perfectly possible for a slim person in a very large suit to be lifted momentanously by a thermal when they fly trough it, same is valid for flying near a mountain with very strong winds ( ridge soaring).



Like this: https://vimeo.com/34439409 ?

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The reason I'm so passionate about making sure that the wingsuit community knows clearly how non-powered flight works, its because we are in a stage when suits have enormous potential, they are becoming glider and if you know how to use gliding knowledge and apply this to your jumps or base jumps you could explore all its potential and stay in the air much longer.



Wingsuits are nowhere near the level of performance of a glider.
I believe you can slow you decent like in the movie or gain altitude for 6 seconds when you convert speed. But a wingsuit is a really bad glider ... they are not in the same ballpark.

Thermals are totally useless for wingsuit pilots. They are simply not strong enough.
I mean: what do you think our average sink rate is?
"The 'perfect' parachute jump was thought to be one where the opening shock and touchdown were simultaneous" -Lyle Cameron, ~1965
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Falling-With-Style.com

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because every wingsuit jumper I met in person think non-powered aircrafts gain altitude and fly hundred of miles by "speeding" or " diving and flaring"



Bullshit.

jakee, I am with Giselle on this one... You cannot say that this is bullshit.
Do you know how many wingsuiters she met in person ?? :D:D:D Possibly just 1, and if that one thinks such stuff, then EVERY jumper SHE KNOWS thinks like that :S:S
scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

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Lastly Its clear that some guys here knows that non powered aircrafts need thermals or ridge soaring to fly and that dive and flare is not the way upwards, but I met and spoke with many jumpers who fly suits and believe me when I say a lot of them has no idea how a non-powered aircraft flies and they want to apply the same laws of powered flight to themselves flying a wingsuit, when a wingsuit is a glider ( no motor).



I don't believe you. It's taken 4 pages and many different people all telling you that you're making the same mistake to get you to begin to see that you're misinterpreting what people here mean by the word s "up" and "climb". And those are really simple words.

How can you still be so confident that you haven't misunderstood the other wingsuiters you've talked to in exactly the same way?

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The reason I'm so passionate about making sure that the wingsuit community knows clearly how non-powered flight works,



If you're genuinely passionate about spreading knowledge you need to change your approach completely. No-one will want to learn anything from you on any subject if you continue to a) never listen and b) insult the crap out of people you think don't know as much as you.
Do you want to have an ideagasm?

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Well explained post Robin,I agree with every single word. You were there most of us weren't so the only thing we can do is discuss about it based on a video only, which is not enough. Its really amazing what these new large suits can do, hopefully will get even better.

Even although I Agree that on that specific video the small gain in height was due a long fast dive and flare as Robin described I do believe that is perfectly possible for a slim person in a very large suit to be lifted momentanously by a thermal when they fly trough it, same is valid for flying near a mountain with very strong winds ( ridge soaring).

Lastly Its clear that some guys here knows that non powered aircrafts need thermals or ridge soaring to fly and that dive and flare is not the way upwards, but I met and spoke with many jumpers who fly suits and believe me when I say a lot of them has no idea how a non-powered aircraft flies and they want to apply the same laws of powered flight to themselves flying a wingsuit, when a wingsuit is a glider ( no motor). The reason I'm so passionate about making sure that the wingsuit community knows clearly how non-powered flight works, its because we are in a stage when suits have enormous potential, they are becoming glider and if you know how to use gliding knowledge and apply this to your jumps or base jumps you could explore all its potential and stay in the air much longer.

Once again Robin thanks for taking time and coming here and explain to us what happened there, as you were there.

Cheers
Lauren



You're welcome.

44
B|
SCR-6933 / SCS-3463 / D-5533 / BASE 44 / CCS-37 / 82d Airborne (Ret.)

"The beginning of wisdom is to first call things by their right names."

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The reason I'm so passionate about making sure that the wingsuit community knows clearly how non-powered flight works,



If you're genuinely passionate about spreading knowledge you need to change your approach completely. No-one will want to learn anything from you on any subject if you continue to a) never listen and b) insult the crap out of people you think don't know as much as you.



Excellent advice, sir. Certainly, Ms. Martins will not be mistaken for Miss Manners any time soon, and her serial lack of courtesy and patience deserved most of the ripostes she received therefor.

However, the record shows that both her content and courtesy exceeded yours, so please do yourself a favor and repeat your advice to the mirror until you change your approach.

44
B|
SCR-6933 / SCS-3463 / D-5533 / BASE 44 / CCS-37 / 82d Airborne (Ret.)

"The beginning of wisdom is to first call things by their right names."

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However, the record shows that both her content and courtesy exceeded yours, so please do yourself a favor and repeat your advice to the mirror until you change your approach.



Nah, since I'm not trying to teach anyone anything I'm quite happy being an asshole;)
Do you want to have an ideagasm?

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You're talking about sustained altitude gain (which, as you say, can only be accomplished by non-powered aircraft through the use of thermals



Well, there is ridge lift and wave lift too.
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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You're talking about sustained altitude gain (which, as you say, can only be accomplished by non-powered aircraft through the use of thermals



Well, there is ridge lift and wave lift too.



LOL... Good eye, Professor Nitpicker. I saw that after it was too late to edit. How'd my paper grade out otherwise?

44
B|
SCR-6933 / SCS-3463 / D-5533 / BASE 44 / CCS-37 / 82d Airborne (Ret.)

"The beginning of wisdom is to first call things by their right names."

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You're talking about sustained altitude gain (which, as you say, can only be accomplished by non-powered aircraft through the use of thermals



Well, there is ridge lift and wave lift too.



LOL... Good eye, Professor Nitpicker. I saw that after it was too late to edit. How'd my paper grade out otherwise?

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Don't know that I'm qualified to answer that.

After all, Lauren/Giselle claims I'm not a glider pilot despite what is written on my FAA issued pilot certificate, and that I know no physics despite having a PhD in the subject.:|;)
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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You're talking about sustained altitude gain (which, as you say, can only be accomplished by non-powered aircraft through the use of thermals



Well, there is ridge lift and wave lift too.



LOL... Good eye, Professor Nitpicker. I saw that after it was too late to edit. How'd my paper grade out otherwise?

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Don't know that I'm qualified to answer that.

After all, Lauren/Giselle claims I'm not a glider pilot despite what is written on my FAA issued pilot certificate, and that I know no physics despite having a PhD in the subject.:|;)



Robin, This Kellend "Dr. knows Everything" claim to be a skygod but he can not answer simple questions about gliding, nor either answered what is his longest flight on his glider and his paraglider and the IGC file to prove it of course. :o You are a registered pilot and? that doesn't mean you are experienced and knows everything. period.;)
Lauren Martins - www.youtube.com/user/gisellemartins20

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You're talking about sustained altitude gain (which, as you say, can only be accomplished by non-powered aircraft through the use of thermals



Well, there is ridge lift and wave lift too.



LOL... Good eye, Professor Nitpicker. I saw that after it was too late to edit. How'd my paper grade out otherwise?

44
B|



Don't know that I'm qualified to answer that.

After all, Lauren/Giselle claims I'm not a glider pilot despite what is written on my FAA issued pilot certificate, and that I know no physics despite having a PhD in the subject.:|;)



Robin, This Kellend "Dr. knows Everything" claim to be a skygod but he can not answer simple questions about gliding, nor either answered what is his longest flight on his glider and his paraglider and the IGC file to prove it of course. :o You are a registered pilot and? that doesn't mean you are experienced and knows everything. period.;)



Lauren, everything you say may be true, but it's also true that Professor Kallend has been doing more than what you do for longer than you've been alive and he knows things that you don't yet even know that you don't know.

Jousting with some of the other peeps on this thread is one thing; trying to bust the good perfesser's chops is a challenge of far greater magnitude and one that I respectfully suggest that you save for another day.

And Professor, please quit pushing Lauren's buttons, wouldja? I asked for your grade because you're someone possessed of deep and broad theoretical and practical knowledge whose opinion I value -- and instead you used my request to reopen hostilities.

I know she's a tempting and even deserving target, but you're kinda pounding the rubble now, don't you think?

Anyway, there's a maxim in the artificial intelligence community that "intelligence emerges from the interaction of conflicting elements," so kudos to you both for so generously contributing more than your share.

44
B|
SCR-6933 / SCS-3463 / D-5533 / BASE 44 / CCS-37 / 82d Airborne (Ret.)

"The beginning of wisdom is to first call things by their right names."

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News flash, April 1, 2014

Giselle Martins finally agrees that wingsuits can, in fact, gain altitude but no one really cares because they are too busy arguing if the new wingsuits with interlocking carbon-fiber panels instead of traditional woven fabric are still really wingsuits.
Sometimes you eat the bear..............

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News flash, April 1, 2014

Giselle Martins finally agrees that wingsuits can, in fact, gain altitude but no one really cares because they are too busy arguing if the new wingsuits with interlocking carbon-fiber panels instead of traditional woven fabric are still really wingsuits.



Another one who post without reading previous messages.

All I've been saying the entire topic is that the latest largest wingsuits can gain altitude even momentaneously with thermals, ridge soaring or with speed to lift like on the video in china. We were discussing "how it climbed" not "if it climbed"
Lauren Martins - www.youtube.com/user/gisellemartins20

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News flash, April 1, 2014

Giselle Martins finally agrees that wingsuits can, in fact, gain altitude but no one really cares because they are too busy arguing if the new wingsuits with interlocking carbon-fiber panels instead of traditional woven fabric are still really wingsuits.



Another one who post without reading previous messages.

All I've been saying the entire topic is that the latest largest wingsuits can gain altitude even momentaneously with thermals, ridge soaring or with speed to lift like on the video in china. We were discussing "how it climbed" not "if it climbed"



Actually this whole thread you were pretty consistent about how wingsuits DO NOT gain altitude with speed but thermals and ridge lift... I did read every post in this thread and you only changed position after someone that was there descibed the situation we all already knew to be true, I suggest you don't call anyone here ignorant till you have some wingsuit jumps under your belt.

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Aside from insulting pretty much every wingsuit pilot she talks to by trying to "Make sure we understand how they work" and making us laugh with her "oh you poor ignorant souls I will educate you" attitude she has added one valuable thing to the thread:

She coined a new word: Momentaneously.
I'm keeping it, and I'll be using it momentaneously.

See?

Its one of those interlanguage artifacts thats hard to define across the language gap, like trying to explain the word "fuckface" to a Japanese in nihongo. Even if you're fluent in the language, the sense of it may not get across.

I knew a Thai back in school in the Philippines who injured a toe, didn't have a name for it, and coined one on the spot: Fingerlegs.
People mocked him for it, but I thought it was funny and awesome as hell. "Injuring your fingerlegs will make you MORE awesome at English which means you can use apostrophes wherever you want to, even with words like 'Nucular' that don't even have an apostrophe yet!"

Brought to you by Brawndo The Thirst Mutilator
-B
Live and learn... or die, and teach by example.

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All I've been saying the entire topic is that the latest largest wingsuits can gain altitude even momentaneously with thermals, ridge soaring or with speed to lift like on the video in china.



Giselle Martins, mistress of flight, physics and revisionist history;)

But if you now accept that wingsuits can briefly achieve climb rates by converting speed to lift, are you going to accept that everyone you disagreed with in this thread was right and you were wrong?
Do you want to have an ideagasm?

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News flash, April 1, 2014

Giselle Martins finally agrees that wingsuits can, in fact, gain altitude but no one really cares because they are too busy arguing if the new wingsuits with interlocking carbon-fiber panels instead of traditional woven fabric are still really wingsuits.



Another one who post without reading previous messages.

All I've been saying the entire topic is that the latest largest wingsuits can gain altitude even momentaneously with thermals, ridge soaring or with speed to lift like on the video in china. We were discussing "how it climbed" not "if it climbed"



Actually this whole thread you were pretty consistent about how wingsuits DO NOT gain altitude with speed but thermals and ridge lift... I did read every post in this thread and you only changed position after someone that was there descibed the situation we all already knew to be true, I suggest you don't call anyone here ignorant till you have some wingsuit jumps under your belt.



Nope, actually the entire threat was about some wingsuit jumpers claiming that the way non powered aircraft gain net altitude is by speeding or speed to lift and as we all know its not the case, and I was explaining how we actually gain altitude and some of your fellow jumpers keep posting videos of planes with engines off speeding and doing speed to lift and saying themselves how the plane gain altitude and that there were no need of thermals, if you read the thread you would know they claim it, and no at that time we were no talking a small gain but how actually how we gain altitude for flying.
Lauren Martins - www.youtube.com/user/gisellemartins20

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