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medusa

Wing Suits Gain Altitud. PERIOD!

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Here is another data point for you muppets to bicker back and forth about

http://vimeo.com/52332979#at=0
Check out the last 30 seconds.

Giselle...say thank you Tony



Thanks to Tony indeed, he works hard on his suits, I keep telling him "Tony go bigger in the next suits" and he is going, yay!

Stunning what the guys are doing in the end of the video, that's what happens when nut paragliders starting flying wingsuits.... keep going guys... amazing :)
Lauren Martins - www.youtube.com/user/gisellemartins20

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Stunning what the guys are doing in the end of the video



Stunning? What's stunning is how much wind they're dealing with, but the idea that they are 'flying' is not accurate. Anything will blow away provided the winds are strong enough.

There's a hurricane htting the eastern seaboard of the US as we speak. Undoubtedly, there will be TV news weather reporters who will don a poncho and will shoot a segment standing out in the storm. In the past, this has relsuted in these folks being blown sideways by the wind force, so are you suggesting that one day we'll be able to foot launch TV weather reporters?

Show me a wingsuit capable of producing enough lift to hoist a human body, and do it at a low enough airpseed to foot launch, and you'll have something. The video shown is not even remotely close to that, or any closer than previously believed. As cool as it is to watch, it's nothing more than bad weather day shennanigans, something any skydiver would know about.

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Stunning what the guys are doing in the end of the video



Stunning? What's stunning is how much wind they're dealing with, but the idea that they are 'flying' is not accurate. Anything will blow away provided the winds are strong enough.
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Davelepka in EXACTLY what moment I said they were "Flying"? honestly... another one... unbelievable.

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Show me a wingsuit capable of producing enough lift to hoist a human body, and do it at a low enough airpseed to foot launch, and you'll have something. The video shown is not even remotely close to that, or any closer than previously believed. As cool as it is to watch, it's nothing more than bad weather day shennanigans, something any skydiver would know about.

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Who said wingsuits can produce lift to go up? Another ridiculous misconception from someone who knows nothing about how an aircraft without motor gos up.

Not even a glider, hangglider or paraglider can produce lift to go up, every glider including a wingsuit is always going down, it starts going up when it hits air that is going up like thermals, waves and ridge soaring thats when the air going up its faster than the your sink rate then one minus another the result is how much your going up.

Why the hell almost every wingsuit I talk to think that for wingsuit go up it need speed? thats absolutely the wrong idea, actually wingsuits need to get a bit slower if they ever want to climb up! The Air moves up and down ( vertically, Thermals) and this is the air we use to go up or down ( air does not only move horizontally ) try to lean it once and for all.

Lauren Martins - www.youtube.com/user/gisellemartins20

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Not even a glider, hangglider or paraglider can produce lift to go up, every glider including a wingsuit is always going down, it starts going up when it hits air that is going up like thermals, waves and ridge soaring thats when the air going up its faster than the your sink rate then one minus another the result is how much your going up.



Thanks for reminding everyone how little you know about flying things.

Explain to me, then, how I (or any swooper) is able to drag a toe in the water, and then pop up and gain altitude for a distance run? This is done in every swooping competition, always over flat ground with no thermals, waves or ridge lift within 10 miles of the DZ.

What about JT? Sure looks like this guy goes up, what's he using, some of those legendary ocean thermals?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=oQOeWcBABjw&feature=fvwp

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What about JT? Sure looks like this guy goes up, what's he using, some of those legendary ocean thermals?



I've heard that the next generation of passenger jets will not have engines, since they've also learned that climbing is accomplished not through airspeed, but through going slower and riding thermals. :S
www.WingsuitPhotos.com

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Not even a glider, hangglider or paraglider can produce lift to go up

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Why the hell almost every wingsuit I talk to think that for wingsuit go up it need speed? thats absolutely the wrong idea


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ZBcapxGHjE




I knew this stupid argument was coming, obviously from people who knows nothing what they are talking about but they are ignorant enough to think that what they are saying is correct.

Once again I will explain exactly whats happening on the video so try to learn.


He just dived his aircraft and used the energy of the dive to climb again BUT HE DID NOT CLIMB ANY HIGHER THAN WHERE HE WAS BEFORE WHEN HE STARTED DIVING! ACTUALLY MAXIMUM PEAK OF HIS CLIMB WILL LOWER THAN WHEN HE STARTED THE DIVE. AND THAT IS NOT FLYING UPWARDS BECAUSE HE DIDN'T CLIMB A SINGLE FOOT UP HIGHER THAN THAN HE WAS BEFORE. Any glider or plane can do that.

For a glider to climb up you need to stay inside air that is going up ( colums of air, thermals) , thats the only way to gain altitude, and the best way to do that is make circles inside the air that is going up like vultures, gliders etc...

It is Astonishing the lack of basic knowledge of non powered flying among wingsuit jumpers.
Lauren Martins - www.youtube.com/user/gisellemartins20

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What about JT? Sure looks like this guy goes up, what's he using, some of those legendary ocean thermals?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=oQOeWcBABjw&feature=fvwp



I knew this stupid argument was coming, obviously from people who knows nothing what they are talking about but they are ignorant enough to think that what they are saying is correct.

Once again I will explain exactly whats happening on the video so try to learn.

He just dived his aircraft and used the energy of the dive to climb again BUT HE DID NOT CLIMB ANY HIGHER THAN WHERE HE WAS BEFORE WHEN HE STARTED DIVING! ACTUALLY MAXIMUM PEAK OF HIS CLIMB WILL LOWER THAN WHEN HE STARTED THE DIVE. AND THAT IS NOT FLYING UPWARDS BECAUSE HE DIDN'T CLIMB A SINGLE FOOT UP HIGHER THAN THAN HE WAS BEFORE. Any glider or plane can do that.

For a glider to climb up you need to stay inside air that is going up ( colums of air, thermals) , thats the only way to gain altitude, and the best way to do that is make circles inside the air that is going up like vultures, gliders do etc...

It is Astonishing the lack of the most basic knowledge of how a non powered aircraft flies among wingsuit jumpers.
Lauren Martins - www.youtube.com/user/gisellemartins20

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Dave, as much as I laugh at what Giselle says most of the time, and as much as I think you are an amazing source of good information in these forums, for once she is right. Wingsuits, like canopies, are gliders, and will never go up without accumulating speed first, or without climbing with the air mass surrounding them. It's just physics and there's no way around that.

Also, the best way to climb with the air mass is to fly at the minimum sink rate, wich is just above stall speed.

On the other hand, saying that in the video the wingsuit climbs because of a thermal is pretty laughable!

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Dave, as much as I laugh at what Giselle says most of the time, and as much as I think you are an amazing source of good information in these forums, for once she is right. Wingsuits, like canopies, are gliders, and will never go up without accumulating speed first, or without climbing with the air mass surrounding them. It's just physics and there's no way around that.

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Finally someone with some knowledge about air and non powered flight. Thanks for your input Vitriol, I just did not understand the part you laugh? All I said so far is pure simple physics. maybe you laughing about how crazy I get when someone post here an utterly nonsense affirmation? yes I get a bit crazy because I don't want wrong information passing forward, its a vicious cycle that delay developments in any aspect of life. knowledge is the key, the latest largest suits from Tony has an amazing potential and people just now are starting to discover it. knowledge about air mass, wind, thermals, ridge soaring, cloud formation can keep a wingsuit pilot far long in the air that he/she ever dreamt of, so it is important to stop keep passing the wrong information forward and starting to learn how it actually works.

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Also, the best way to climb with the air mass is to fly at the minimum sink rate, wich is just above stall speed.

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That't correct, but unfortunately even at the slowest speed/best sink the largest wingsuits still a bit too fast to stay inside the airmass, naturally as they get bigger and bigger the speed with reduce and glide ratio will improve, so the possibility of go under a "cloud street" (cumulus) formation and maybe gain or sustain flight its a real possibility.

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On the other hand, saying that in the video the wingsuit climbs because of a thermal is pretty laughable!



Could you explain why it is laughable?

Btw, the small climb caused by "speed to lift" you call "accumulating speed" is not actually a way of going up because the climb will always be lower than the point where you started the dive to pick up speed. so its not considered a way of going up. The only way up are Thermals or Ridge lift (soaring).
Lauren Martins - www.youtube.com/user/gisellemartins20

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Not even a glider, hangglider or paraglider can produce lift to go up

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Why the hell almost every wingsuit I talk to think that for wingsuit go up it need speed? thats absolutely the wrong idea


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ZBcapxGHjE




I knew this stupid argument was coming, obviously from people who knows nothing what they are talking about but they are ignorant enough to think that what they are saying is correct.

Once again I will explain exactly whats happening on the video so try to learn.


He just dived his aircraft and used the energy of the dive to climb again BUT HE DID NOT CLIMB ANY HIGHER THAN WHERE HE WAS BEFORE WHEN HE STARTED DIVING!



Who claimed that he did?

You wrote:

"Not even a glider, hangglider or paraglider can produce lift to go up, every glider including a wingsuit is always going down"

Going UP simply means that the altitude is increasing, something that any glider can do if it starts with an excess of kinetic energy that it can trade for potential energy. No thermal needed.

You are, quite simply, WRONG.
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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Not even a glider, hangglider or paraglider can produce lift to go up

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Why the hell almost every wingsuit I talk to think that for wingsuit go up it need speed? thats absolutely the wrong idea


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ZBcapxGHjE




I knew this stupid argument was coming, obviously from people who knows nothing what they are talking about but they are ignorant enough to think that what they are saying is correct.

Once again I will explain exactly whats happening on the video so try to learn.


He just dived his aircraft and used the energy of the dive to climb again BUT HE DID NOT CLIMB ANY HIGHER THAN WHERE HE WAS BEFORE WHEN HE STARTED DIVING!



Who claimed that he did?

You wrote:

"Not even a glider, hangglider or paraglider can produce lift to go up, every glider including a wingsuit is always going down"

Going UP simply means that the altitude is increasing, something that any glider can do if it starts with an excess of kinetic energy that it can trade for potential energy. No thermal needed.

You are, quite simply, WRONG.



YOU ARE THE ONE CLAIMING THAT IS POSSIBLE TO GAIN ALTITUDE WITHOUT THERMALS JUST WITH A DIVE AND FLARE, YOU JUST SAID IT!

As explained to death here even by other member when you " speed to lift " in simple words " dive and flare " DO NOT MEANS IT IS GAINING ALTITUDE if he start diving at 100 ft his climb will go up to 90ft so he is actually LOSING HEIGHT NOT CLIMBING I fly gliders and I know this simple as 2+2 = 4 otherwise i would just keep diving my hangglider everytime I want to go up!! That's stupid.

You said you are glider pilot, powered pilot and wingsuit jumper and teach engineer right? I'm sorry to say but after your utterly non sense arguments, you must be trolling or you probably is the worse glider pilot, powered pilot that I ever seen because your ideas about how air mass and physics are utterly wrong.

BTW I'm still waiting for your private message, I asked you pretty simple questions about flying on it, no answer?:D
Lauren Martins - www.youtube.com/user/gisellemartins20

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Not even a glider, hangglider or paraglider can produce lift to go up

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Why the hell almost every wingsuit I talk to think that for wingsuit go up it need speed? thats absolutely the wrong idea


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ZBcapxGHjE




I knew this stupid argument was coming, obviously from people who knows nothing what they are talking about but they are ignorant enough to think that what they are saying is correct.

Once again I will explain exactly whats happening on the video so try to learn.


He just dived his aircraft and used the energy of the dive to climb again BUT HE DID NOT CLIMB ANY HIGHER THAN WHERE HE WAS BEFORE WHEN HE STARTED DIVING!



Who claimed that he did?

You wrote:

"Not even a glider, hangglider or paraglider can produce lift to go up, every glider including a wingsuit is always going down"

Going UP simply means that the altitude is increasing, something that any glider can do if it starts with an excess of kinetic energy that it can trade for potential energy. No thermal needed.

You are, quite simply, WRONG.



You said you are glider pilot, powered pilot and wingsuit jumper and teach engineer right? I'm sorry to say but after your utterly non sense arguments, you must be trolling or you probably is the worse glider pilot, powered pilot that I ever seen because your ideas about how air mass and physics are utterly wrong.

As explained to death here even by other member when you " speed to lift " in simple words " dive and flare " DO NOT MEANS IT IS GAINING ALTITUDE if he start diving at 100 ft his climb will go up to 90ft so he is actually LOSING HEIGHT NOT CLIMBING I fly gliders and I know this simple as 2+2 = 4 otherwise i would just keep diving my hangglider everytime I want to go up!! That's stupid.

BTW I'm still waiting for your private message, I asked you pretty simple questions about flying on it, no answer?:D



:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

Maybe some lessons in basic English would clue you in.
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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Not even a glider, hangglider or paraglider can produce lift to go up

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Why the hell almost every wingsuit I talk to think that for wingsuit go up it need speed? thats absolutely the wrong idea


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ZBcapxGHjE




I knew this stupid argument was coming, obviously from people who knows nothing what they are talking about but they are ignorant enough to think that what they are saying is correct.

Once again I will explain exactly whats happening on the video so try to learn.


He just dived his aircraft and used the energy of the dive to climb again BUT HE DID NOT CLIMB ANY HIGHER THAN WHERE HE WAS BEFORE WHEN HE STARTED DIVING!



Who claimed that he did?

You wrote:

"Not even a glider, hangglider or paraglider can produce lift to go up, every glider including a wingsuit is always going down"

Going UP simply means that the altitude is increasing, something that any glider can do if it starts with an excess of kinetic energy that it can trade for potential energy. No thermal needed.

You are, quite simply, WRONG.



You said you are glider pilot, powered pilot and wingsuit jumper and teach engineer right? I'm sorry to say but after your utterly non sense arguments, you must be trolling or you probably is the worse glider pilot, powered pilot that I ever seen because your ideas about how air mass and physics are utterly wrong.

As explained to death here even by other member when you " speed to lift " in simple words " dive and flare " DO NOT MEANS IT IS GAINING ALTITUDE if he start diving at 100 ft his climb will go up to 90ft so he is actually LOSING HEIGHT NOT CLIMBING I fly gliders and I know this simple as 2+2 = 4 otherwise i would just keep diving my hangglider everytime I want to go up!! That's stupid.

BTW I'm still waiting for your private message, I asked you pretty simple questions about flying on it, no answer?:D



:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

Maybe some lessons in basic English would clue you in.



English is not my mother language therefore spelling mistakes is pretty normal. You should use your perfect English and go study because so far you only spoke nonsense.
Lauren Martins - www.youtube.com/user/gisellemartins20

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Don't be silly. The argument is clearly about whether a wing suit pilot can temporarily climb due to a dive & pullup.

It's not about whether they can launch from an aircraft or cliff and fly away upwards on magical thermals...

Your hangglider clearly has the descent rate, drag, lift, etc. to do a dive and pull up to climb temporarily (in still air). Wingsuits and wingsuit pilots have taken time to get to that sort of performance.

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Don't be silly. The argument is clearly about whether a wing suit pilot can temporarily climb due to a dive & pullup.

It's not about whether they can launch from an aircraft or cliff and fly away upwards on magical thermals...

Your hangglider clearly has the descent rate, drag, lift, etc. to do a dive and pull up to climb temporarily (in still air). Wingsuits and wingsuit pilots have taken time to get to that sort of performance.



Nope, have you read all the messages? the mainly argument here is " gaining altitude " which some nonsense jumpers insist to be possible to gain altitude without thermals just just by a "dive and flare" or that wingsuits go up with "high winds" and that is obviously not possible in any aircraft, glider or a wingsuit as explained to death here by me and other member. Dive and flare and you end up same height as you started or lower. Simple physics. The only way up is staying inside an air mass that is going up, that are called thermals or ridge soaring.
Lauren Martins - www.youtube.com/user/gisellemartins20

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YES, he did flew up and not because of a dive and flare but because he CLEARLY hit a small thermal.



Because even people arguing if he is climbing or not would agree he is flaring at the end of a steep dive. And a thermal strong enough to produce that kind of climb on a wingsuit would need to be incredibly strong. Very strong winds could produce that kind of lift, but then it wouldn't be a thermal, and I doubt the conditions would be flyable in that location. So, I find laughable to think it is CLEARLY a "small" thermal.


Also, I think this whole argument is mostly miscommunication. I think everyone agrees that if you dive enough a wingsuit can gain altitude, even momentarily. Not higher than from where it started the dive, but for some time it stops descending.

I guess the whole argument is mostly about how much of a dive, and how much altitude is gained.

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Dive and flare and you end up same height as you started or lower. Simple physics. The only way up is staying inside an air mass that is going up, that are called thermals or ridge soaring.



I don't think I'll argue it any more, but your definition of "up" is a different than most people.

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i think this whole conversation can be summed up by the word "relative" the wingsuit does gain altitude from the lowest point of the dive right before the flare.... it does not gain altitude by ridge soaring or thermals YET....

example: if i were flying my wingsuit above the altitude of your glider and i dove down to the glider and flared the suit i would gain altitude momentarily RELATIVE to your gliders position in the sky.

can we all agree on this?
Flock University FWC / ZFlock
B.A.S.E. 1580
Aussie BASE 121

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English is not my mother language therefore spelling mistakes is pretty normal.



Not just spelling mistakes.

You are being incredibly vague with your initial statements, then when someone replies with a valid interpretation of the words you wrote, but not actually to what you meant then you instantly go totally apeshit. Since you've done it many times before I can only assume it's a tactic you use to intentionally start arguments so you can go on your little 'I'm the only smart one and you're all stupid' ego trip.

If not, and genuinely you feel that people are misunderstanding you then here's the thing, it's your fault. If you want them to be on your wavelength from the start, then be more fucking specific.
Do you want to have an ideagasm?

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Dive and flare and you end up same height as you started or lower. Simple physics. The only way up is staying inside an air mass that is going up, that are called thermals or ridge soaring.



I don't think I'll argue it any more, but your definition of "up" is a different than most people.



The definition of "gaining altitude" "Up" is the same for everyone unless the person is dumb. As explained to death here, a dive and flare is not gaining any altitude or going up as you end up lower then where you started.
Lauren Martins - www.youtube.com/user/gisellemartins20

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