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jeb

Recon HUD for wing-suits

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I highly recommend you to do that, you have lots to learn, wingsuits are not longer just falling, a wingsuit nowadays is actually a low performance fast glider, learning about, air, wind, thermals, cloud formation, ridge soaring can help you to stay in the air much longer on a wingsuit than just a normal "jumper"

Visit, ask, read, learn etc... generally glider, hangglider and paraglider pilots are very good pilots, they generally know more about air dynamics and meteorology than those who fly motor airplanes as we depend absolutely on it to be able to stay up flying as we do not have turbines or propellers.

I highly recommend you to visit any glider forum and learn a world that you don't know about that has direct use for flying your wingsuit.




As I fixed wing pilot who thought he knew about meteorology when he met some hangglider pilots I would have to agree here totally. These guys know their stuff. We could learn alot from them

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.....blah blah.....

That is absolutely not truth what you are saying, you probably have no deep knowledge about how these devices work.

....blah blah....

Lauren



It's a pitty I no longer live in UK, it would be fun to meet you in person and discuss all that stuff :o I enjoy debates like that, but I am way too lazy to type that much. Peace.

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You would do well to pay attention to what others, more knowledgeable than you, are telling you.



So in your little male mind nobody knows anything about a wingsuit and air dynamics to maximize our stay in the air but the wingsuiters themselves? not to mention that our conversation is about electronic flying devices? your comment above is the biggest B****T you said so far.


A skydiver is not a hang glider nor a paraglider.



Noooo, really? :D

All laws and dynamics is about the same applied to all airfoil without engine, that's why paragliders who never flew Hanggliders knows how a hanggliders works in theory even although they are not able to fly one without a course first. Same applies for a wingsuit, a piece of cloth in an airfoil shape with high loadings using the body and extended arms as a frame, all physics laws and dynamics applied are the same, even although i don't fly one yet is perfectly possible for anyone to know how it works. Now you jumper who know almost nothing about meteorology, air dynamics and the only thing you know is how to control your body in free fall and land a ramair canopy come and tell everyone that you know everything and no one else knows nothing about wingsuits? ignorant much?



Well, Lauren, I do happen to be a licensed glider pilot, a licensed power pilot, a wingsuit flyer and a professor of engineering.

And you are full of it.
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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Yes you can zero altitude :) And the next generation will have sound too telling you glide as you fly on top of having HUD :) They just need to know there is a market to spend the money in development...



Jeb you mentioned that next generation will have sound feet back. Will it be software update or we will have to buy second one?



Can this please be answered? By anyone?

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Comparing GPS vs Barometric sensor? as debated to death on this topic, they are used for different things, there is no point on comparing them. That's why ALL sailplanes ( including the one on link you posted ) use a barometric sensor for their variometers and not a GPS.



For what it's worth, when I was doing testing for the design of FlySight, I experimented with a barometric altimeter as well. In my experience, a modern GPS is easily as accurate as a barometric altimeter for both altitude and vertical speed. This is not the case if vertical speed is derived from altitude measurements (as is often done with NMEA data), but if vertical speed is derived from Doppler measurements within the GPS receiver, you're good to go.

As far as the reason why variometers use pressure sensors... This is likely based more on cost than accuracy. A GPS provides position information which is not necessary for variometer functionality, but would increase the build price of a vario enormously.

Michael

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For what it's worth, when I was doing testing for the design of FlySight, I experimented with a barometric altimeter as well. In my experience, a modern GPS is easily as accurate as a barometric altimeter for both altitude and vertical speed. This is not the case if vertical speed is derived from altitude measurements (as is often done with NMEA data), but if vertical speed is derived from Doppler measurements within the GPS receiver, you're good to go.

As far as the reason why variometers use pressure sensors... This is likely based more on cost than accuracy. A GPS provides position information which is not necessary for variometer functionality, but would increase the build price of a vario enormously.

Michael



Noo I didn't hear this did I? lol GPS's are far cheaper than a barometric sensor, every cheap android phone has a GPS inside.

I fly with my galaxy s3 ( modern GPS and Glonass) phone and it has GPS and baro sensor inside, THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO CHANCE that the GPS is more accurate for vertical speed than the barometer, on XCSoar application you can choose the data between GPS and Baro sensor and with GPS is way to slow and do not give information at real time like a baro sensor does. you Sink 5 meters in 1 second the baro sensor will says straight away in the same second, the GPS will say 10 seconds later and even not the exact number you sank, instead of 5 it will say 6 7 or 4 etc... totally unreliable for vertical speed.

I know we are all learning with this debates here and nobody knows everything, but I find it AMAZING that some guys here come affirming things that are utterly not the truth. I wonder if wrong information is pass over and over again because others watching this and are unfamiliar with what we are talking may just believe in what is told here and if what is told here is totally wrong they may keep passing the wrong message ahead.

Lauren "Amazed" :S

BTW I usually teach seminar about GPS's Varios, Baro sensors and flying computers in my flying club. I dont know everything naturally, but I know quite bit in this area.
Lauren Martins - www.youtube.com/user/gisellemartins20

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I read through this thread and then I LOL´d. Seriously. I think you guys should go out and just fly. Without any sensors, barometric or GPS. Just fly and enjoy how it feels.



hahaha, Markus, you must have a lot of time to read all this :)I think I would die on my first base jump with such a gadget... Imagin diving for a target, checking the speed and glide ratio in your goggles to be sure that you have enough power left to climb with your wingsuit if you are to low ;)
but a combination of this thing with an audio voice telling you speed and glide ratio all the time (like a gps), and having some emergency modes like abord, climb, alert, turn left to avoid collision and so on would be nice...
Michi (#1068)
hsbc/gba/sba
www.swissbaseassociation.ch
www.michibase.ch

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Just been looking through the differences in recon products and noticed this

---------------------
Will Flight HUD work with Recon’s MOD Live?

No, Flight HUD will only work with custom built software for the MOD Heads-up Display.
---------------------

One piece of functionality in the Recon MOD Live that would be handy is the "trail map function" - so if there is a little cloud about you could for instance enter waypoints to ensure you can navigate back to your opening point.
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I just got done speaking with recon, Just so everyone knows:

the refresh rate on the vertical (altitude) is 10hz,
the refresh rate on horizontal (groundspeed) is only 1hz!

Also these will NOT include any options that the recon mod live have incorporated: no navagation, no buddy tracking, no contour bluetooth connection, no cellphone connectivity. Etc.....

Im waiting for version two, as 1hz is very poor for a gps, and said before the refresh rate of the hud is once every second, I am guessing the reason they did not refresh the hud faster is because the horizontal (speed) will not be able too keep up, and just keep displaying the previous data until the gps refreshes.
Flock University FWC / ZFlock
B.A.S.E. 1580
Aussie BASE 121

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I just got done speaking with recon, Just so everyone knows:

the refresh rate on the vertical (altitude) is 10hz,
the refresh rate on horizontal (groundspeed) is only 1hz!

Also these will NOT include any options that the recon mod live have incorporated: no navagation, no buddy tracking, no contour bluetooth connection, no cellphone connectivity. Etc.....

Im waiting for version two, as 1hz is very poor for a gps, and said before the refresh rate of the hud is once every second, I am guessing the reason they did not refresh the hud faster is because the horizontal (speed) will not be able too keep up, and just keep displaying the previous data until the gps refreshes.



Are you anticipating such a high horizontal acceleration that 1Hz won't be able to follow it?
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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Are you anticipating such a high horizontal acceleration that 1Hz won't be able to follow it?



No, but there are definate advantages to a 5hz system over the 1hz:

1.faster satellite acquisition times
*recon states turn them on a few min before you get in the plane, and they will probably loose signal in the plane and have to re-acquire the signal after you exit the plane approx 20-30 sec

2.better accuracy
*if the gps refreshes 5x faster there will be a difference in accuracy

3.smoother gps tracks for you to interpret.

4.less display lag
*recons hud claims its refresh rate can be faster at the sacrafice of battery life, but the gps horizontal is limited to 1refresh per second.

5. almost real time data
*the difference is 5hz refreshes 5x faster than 1hz meaning every .2 sec it refreshes

almost every new gps for pilots are 5hz
almost every gps for UAVs are 5hz
allot of automobile gps units have moved to 5hz

we usually fly our wingsuits around 100mph forward speed, this equates to 146.6 feet per second.

at a refresh rate of 1hz you can be 146.6 feet behind where the gps thinks you are

when you raise the refresh rate to 5hz you are only 29.3 feet behind where the gps thinks you are.

a difference of 117.3 feet traveled.

the recons calculate glide ratio with two sensors: gps for forward speed and a barometer for altitude. would it not make sense to have these refresh at the same rate so the glide ratio can be properly calculated in real time instead of the barometer refreshing 10X faster than the gps?
Flock University FWC / ZFlock
B.A.S.E. 1580
Aussie BASE 121

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at a refresh rate of 1hz you can be 146.6 feet behind where the gps thinks you are

when you raise the refresh rate to 5hz you are only 29.3 feet behind where the gps thinks you are.



You are funny. No GPS tells you where you are, but tell you where you can be with a certain precision. You seem to know a lot about GPS. ;)

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at a refresh rate of 1hz you CAN BE 146.6 feet behind where the gps thinks you are

when you raise the refresh rate to 5hz you are only 29.3 feet behind where the gps thinks you are.



You are funny. No GPS tells you where you are, but tell you where you can be with a certain precision. You seem to know a lot about GPS. ;)



i guess you cant read. try again, this time it is in capital letters just for you
Flock University FWC / ZFlock
B.A.S.E. 1580
Aussie BASE 121

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I just got done speaking with recon, Just so everyone knows:

the refresh rate on the vertical (altitude) is 10hz,
the refresh rate on horizontal (groundspeed) is only 1hz!

Also these will NOT include any options that the recon mod live have incorporated: no navagation, no buddy tracking, no contour bluetooth connection, no cellphone connectivity. Etc.....

Im waiting for version two, as 1hz is very poor for a gps, and said before the refresh rate of the hud is once every second, I am guessing the reason they did not refresh the hud faster is because the horizontal (speed) will not be able too keep up, and just keep displaying the previous data until the gps refreshes.



What version two? I quoted their web site and asked Jeb to clarify this a few pages back and never got an answer. According to their website, this is a one time deal and they don't ever plan to offer this product after this one time deal. Personally I am not going to buy something without hearing a few reviews first. Here is the direct quote from their site...

Quote

This custom package is a Recon Labs project and will only be available for a limited time on labs.reconinstruments.com if we meet the minimum of 250 units within 30 days. We have no plans for retail distribution.



Did they tell you something different?

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Did they tell you something different?



nope, but with 395 units sold in 14 days it dosent appear to be a niche market to me.
i could be totally wrong, but with the rise in wingsuiting that we have been seeing i dont see them turning away $$$... thats already over $125k just from this project in 14 days....

if the idea works like they think it will, you can only assume they will follow the money, and keep releasing newer updated versions to keep the cash coming in and the customers happy.
Flock University FWC / ZFlock
B.A.S.E. 1580
Aussie BASE 121

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Also these will NOT include any options that the recon mod live have incorporated: no navagation,



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at a refresh rate of 1hz you can be 146.6 feet behind where the gps thinks you are

when you raise the refresh rate to 5hz you are only 29.3 feet behind where the gps thinks you are.

a difference of 117.3 feet traveled.



I think this is only really important IF a nav display was included. As long as it samples the alt and distance travelled at the same time then the glide rate and speed will be accurate. With the features it has I could live with a 1 sec update rate.

On my list of 'wants' I'd be significantly more likely to buy it if I could program waypoints in to follow than a 5hz refresh rate.
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the recons calculate glide ratio with two sensors: gps for forward speed and a barometer for altitude. would it not make sense to have these refresh at the same rate so the glide ratio can be properly calculated in real time instead of the barometer refreshing 10X faster than the gps?



This is most likely due to hardware limitations. 10 Hz barometers are common, inexpensive, and use very little power. An accurate 10 Hz GPS is a lot harder to come by--especially with the antenna size limitations Recon is working with.

Michael

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the recons calculate glide ratio with two sensors: gps for forward speed and a barometer for altitude. would it not make sense to have these refresh at the same rate so the glide ratio can be properly calculated in real time instead of the barometer refreshing 10X faster than the gps?



This is most likely due to hardware limitations. 10 Hz barometers are common, inexpensive, and use very little power. An accurate 10 Hz GPS is a lot harder to come by--especially with the antenna size limitations Recon is working with.

Michael



personally i think it has allot more to do with processor speed than the gps.
Flock University FWC / ZFlock
B.A.S.E. 1580
Aussie BASE 121

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Despite all technical improvements, I ordered my Recon HUD not for trusting on them for my life, but just for fun and to have an instrument showing plus or less how I'm flying my ws. Like a Flysight...
The use of these tools should be reserved to advanced pilots, not for beginners, and not forgiving the normal awareness required for any kind of skydive (or BASE Jump).
This would be a first step on improving instruments to aid the ws piloting...
Let's see what technology can do for our sport.
Recon has done the first step...

3,2,1,C-YA!!!
V.
BASE #1075 / BMI #I-002 / PFI #042 / EGI #104

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