verticalflyer 11 #51 October 21, 2012 Quoteif that were the case cars, aircraft and basically anything that moves would have audible gauges... Many companies are moving toward heads up displays and I believe military aircraft already do this? Often in environments far more complex and faster than ours... Audible warnings remain the primary choice for safety apllications e.g terrain / collision avoidance. Simply due to most aerial sports/activity being visually rich in data and limited in sound. So effectively audible acts as a clear channel for input. The visual media is clearly heavily used for detailed complex information but the real challenge is ensuring the pilot recieves the right information in the most readily absorbable format. This looks like an interesting step forward and it will be interestign to see if version 1 is a commercial ready solution or the first 250 are a test bed?Dont just talk about it, Do it! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tsisson 0 #52 October 22, 2012 Quoteif that were the case cars, aircraft and basically anything that moves would have audible gauges... Many companies are moving toward heads up displays and I believe military aircraft already do this? Often in environments far more complex and faster than ours...I am not saying I wan't a pair just saying what is happening is more inline with other displays for moving vehicles and a goggle display is prob better than looking down at the chest mount from time to time There is a reason MotoGP bikes don't have speedos... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NoValidTitle 0 #53 October 25, 2012 I hope Jeb/Recon can chime in or something. I'm curious what the data will look like on the HUD. I saw the mockup on Engadget but the Recon page says it will have altitude as well, which isn't on the Engadget mockup. I'd love to see how all of the data will be presented. As well as what kind of options/settings will exist. I also see that there is a barometric pressure sensor in it which is a good sign for the altimeter not being GPS based. I guess for ease of answering here are the questions I have: 1: What will the HUD actually look like? 2: Is the alti GPS based or is it using the barometric sensor? 3: Will the whole HUD be on a 1 second refresh or just the GPS? (IE 1 second GR/speed updates but live altitude readings) 4: If the alti is using the barometric sensor will the GR be calculated with the barometric data for alti and GPS data for horizontal speed or will the GR be calculated using only GPS? (I'm not sure which would be more accurate, just curious on the technical details) 5: What kind of user settings/options are there? 6: Is it possible that we can have more than 1 second updates at the cost of battery life? 7: Will it be open source so we can tweak things ourselves?Nothing in life is to be feared. It is only to be understood. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gisellemartins 0 #54 October 25, 2012 Jeb ask them for a barometric sensor inside the goggles, without it the goggles will be almost useless, the speed is measured by the GPS but the sink rate or even a climb rate ( vertical speed) is measured by a barometric sensor as the GPS is not accurate enough for instantaneous vertical data. A barometric sensor is a must for all aerial sports. Many of the latest android phones like the galaxy s3 has a barometer inside, that makes these phones totally usable for flying when you use apps like XCSoar. Give you instantaneous glide ratio, speed, cimb/sink rate etc... The sink/climb rate displaying in the goggles in m/s or ft/minute based using the barometric sensor would make it a killer. I would buy one.Lauren Martins - www.youtube.com/user/gisellemartins20 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
murf62 0 #55 October 25, 2012 Why don't you go to the Recon site & read the info there? "Recon Instruments MOD was designed and built for giving real-time info to skiers direct-to-eye. The sensors within this device, however, are ideal for providing flight metrics. There is an onboard accelerometer, altimeter and GPS system, which would allow us to provide forward speed, glide ratio and altitude. We would need to build completely new software to accurately pull and display this information, which is the whole point of this Recon Labs project." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NoValidTitle 0 #56 October 25, 2012 QuoteWhy don't you go to the Recon site & read the info there? "Recon Instruments MOD was designed and built for giving real-time info to skiers direct-to-eye. The sensors within this device, however, are ideal for providing flight metrics. There is an onboard accelerometer, altimeter and GPS system, which would allow us to provide forward speed, glide ratio and altitude. We would need to build completely new software to accurately pull and display this information, which is the whole point of this Recon Labs project." I'm assuming that was directed at gisellemartins. I'm looking for a little bit more specific info. I've read the whole labs page.Nothing in life is to be feared. It is only to be understood. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gisellemartins 0 #57 October 25, 2012 QuoteWhy don't you go to the Recon site & read the info there? "Recon Instruments MOD was designed and built for giving real-time info to skiers direct-to-eye. The sensors within this device, however, are ideal for providing flight metrics. There is an onboard accelerometer, altimeter and GPS system, which would allow us to provide forward speed, glide ratio and altitude. We would need to build completely new software to accurately pull and display this information, which is the whole point of this Recon Labs project." Sure. Now I wonder if the altimeter sensor they are talking about is actually a barometric sensor. In some countries they use the word altimeter sensor to describe a "barometric sensor" Lets hope this is the case. Anyone knows?Lauren Martins - www.youtube.com/user/gisellemartins20 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Baxter99 0 #58 October 25, 2012 If you want to see what the display really looks like, all you need to do is find a ski shop with one of the Zeal instruments goggles with the Recon MOD HUD installed in stock. They'll be happy to turn it on and let you try it on. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NoValidTitle 0 #59 October 25, 2012 Quote Sure. Now I wonder if the altimeter sensor they are talking about is actually a barometric sensor. In some countries they use the word altimeter sensor to describe a "barometric sensor" Lets hope this is the case. Anyone knows? It says on the site that there is a barometric sensor... http://labs.reconinstruments.com/flight-hud-tech-specs/ QuoteGPS Receiver | Tri-axial Accelerometer | Temperature sensor | Barometric pressure sensor QuoteIf you want to see what the display really looks like, all you need to do is find a ski shop with one of the Zeal instruments goggles with the Recon MOD HUD installed in stock. They'll be happy to turn it on and let you try it on. I've put those on before. I mean how will it be setup specifically for us. There is a mockup on their site but in that example it only shows speed and glide, no alti. I'm curious how that will all be presented to us. Will we be able to change it?Nothing in life is to be feared. It is only to be understood. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gisellemartins 0 #60 October 25, 2012 Quote I've put those on before. I mean how will it be setup specifically for us. There is a mockup on their site but in that example it only shows speed and glide, no alti. I'm curious how that will all be presented to us. Will we be able to change it? So the only important thing missing is the value of the sink/climb rate showing in the display together with speed and glide ratio. That is something vital that they should not forget. if they do fix it I will for sure buy one too, as I'm a pilot it is good for paragliding and Hanggliding also.Lauren Martins - www.youtube.com/user/gisellemartins20 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,621 #61 October 25, 2012 QuoteJeb ask them for a barometric sensor inside the goggles, without it the goggles will be almost useless, the speed is measured by the GPS but the sink rate or even a climb rate ( vertical speed) is measured by a barometric sensor as the GPS is not accurate enough for instantaneous vertical data. A barometric sensor is a must for all aerial sports. Many of the latest android phones like the galaxy s3 has a barometer inside, that makes these phones totally usable for flying when you use apps like XCSoar. Give you instantaneous glide ratio, speed, cimb/sink rate etc... The sink/climb rate displaying in the goggles in m/s or ft/minute based using the barometric sensor would make it a killer. I would buy one. The difficulty of designing a static port for an aircraft is very well known. Without a proper static port, barometric altimeters are subject to large errors at high speeds. On a helmet, goggles, wrist or chest mount a proper static pressure measurement is just about impossible at skydiving speeds, and the reading is highly susceptible to movements of the head, arm etc. So pinning your accuracy hopes on a barometric altimeter is just about as futile as pinning them on GPS.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,621 #62 October 25, 2012 OK, they have the 250 (+). What is the likely delivery schedule?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gisellemartins 0 #63 October 25, 2012 Quote The difficulty of designing a static port for an aircraft is very well known. Without a proper static port, barometric altimeters are subject to large errors at high speeds. On a helmet, goggles, wrist or chest mount a proper static pressure measurement is just about impossible at skydiving speeds, and the reading is highly susceptible to movements of the head, arm etc. So pinning your accuracy hopes on a barometric altimeter is just about as futile as pinning them on GPS. That is absolutely not truth what you are saying, you probably have no deep knowledge about how these devices work. A hangglider go at 120km/h without any problem with the variometer ( barometric/altimeter reading ) and yes the vario is not air sealed obviously and it is fixed in the bar of the glider where it takes all wind as it possibly can get but the sensor is inside the device, same is for paragliders. If the barometric sensor is placed inside the goggles where it is protected against the wind strength and still in contact with air there will no problem at all. The accuracy will be as good as walking or at 200km/h. LaurenLauren Martins - www.youtube.com/user/gisellemartins20 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mccordia 73 #64 October 26, 2012 Quoteyou probably have no deep knowledge about how these devices work Not ment as an insult, but the same seems to apply to you and wingsuits. Instead of talking about buying this device for wingsuit flying, Id focus on AFF and making some actual wingsuit jumps at some point to get a more in-depth view and understanding of what you're often trying to talk about. For the record...Kallen is 100% correct. Depending on placement, barometric devices can get 2000 ft deviations during agressive manouvers, and the device moving in and out of burbles and/or high pressure areas under the body during flares/dives. If you dont take my word for it, I have no doubt ANY wingsuit pilot will be able to supply you with a load of funny and freaky graphs (from both GPS and barometric devices).JC FlyLikeBrick I'm an Athlete? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gisellemartins 0 #65 October 26, 2012 QuoteQuoteyou probably have no deep knowledge about how these devices work Not ment as an insult, but the same seems to apply to you and wingsuits. Instead of talking about buying this device for wingsuit flying, Id focus on AFF and making some actual wingsuit jumps at some point to get a more in-depth view and understanding of what you're often trying to talk about. For the record...Kallen is 100% correct. Depending on placement, barometric devices can get 2000 ft deviations during agressive manouvers, and the device moving in and out of burbles and/or high pressure areas under the body during flares/dives. If you dont take my word for it, I have no doubt ANY wingsuit pilot will be able to supply you with a load of funny and freaky graphs (from both GPS and barometric devices). Not to worry mccordia, most probably anything you say about free flying will just make me laugh instead of insulting :) Your wrong because the altimeter you guys use do not have the kalman filter, which make them not accurate enough for flying (your altimeter is accurate enough for falling not for gliding like on a wingsuit ) not to mention that the baro sensor you guys use on skydiving and motor flying is far less accurate than those used on free flying, as I said before, a good and correctly positioned sensor inside the device will stop unwanted variations, naturally if you hit a thermal your sink rate will reduce and and the pressure will change (that's what we want). I say that because I had 7 different varios (baro sensors) in 8 years of flying, tested them on low and high speeds and the problem your claiming is non existent in a well designed device. These goggles will be the first one designed for flying, normally they always need an update in the second version to fix any problem but I do believe they will get it right, let's wait the goggle come out and see if I'm wrong or if it's you and your friend that are wrong :)Lauren Martins - www.youtube.com/user/gisellemartins20 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,621 #66 October 26, 2012 You would do well to pay attention to what others, more knowledgeable than you, are telling you. A skydiver is not a hang glider nor a paraglider. Getting an accurate static pressure measurement is notoriously difficult on a fast moving object whose orientation with respect to the airflow is continually changing. Barometric altimeters make assumptions about the density distribution in the atmosphere that can be quite different from reality. "Cold and low, look out below" is an old pilots' adage warning of the dangers of relying on a barometric altimeter under some circumstances. And by the way, GPS's use Kalman filters too ... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,621 #67 October 26, 2012 www.borgeltinstruments.com/GPSvsPressurealtitude.pdf Interesting read on GPS and barometric altimetry.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gisellemartins 0 #68 October 26, 2012 Quote You would do well to pay attention to what others, more knowledgeable than you, are telling you. So in your little male mind nobody knows anything about a wingsuit and air dynamics to maximize our stay in the air but the wingsuiters themselves? not to mention that our conversation is about electronic flying devices? your comment above is the biggest B****T you said so far. A skydiver is not a hang glider nor a paraglider. Noooo, really? All laws and dynamics is about the same applied to all airfoil without engine, that's why paragliders who never flew Hanggliders knows how a hanggliders works in theory even although they are not able to fly one without a course first. Same applies for a wingsuit, a piece of cloth in an airfoil shape with high loadings using the body and extended arms as a frame, all physics laws and dynamics applied are the same, even although i don't fly one yet is perfectly possible for anyone to know how it works. Now you jumper who know almost nothing about meteorology, air dynamics and the only thing you know is how to control your body in free fall and land a ramair canopy come and tell everyone that you know everything and no one else knows nothing about wingsuits? ignorant much? BTW the only way to find out who is right or wrong is wait the goggles to come out and see. Small variations in the pressure sensor will always exist and thats a good thing, thats why we want them, we want to fly where there are air updrafts so we can have less sink and stay in the air longer and also know how much sink we are having in a determinate moment and place. As many devices with baro sensor who works perfectly well in high speeds like flytec 6030, brauninger compeo and many others ( even although you insist they don't exist or are impossible to be made ) this new goggles will be just one more in the market that works well in low or high speeds. hope that shuts you up because I'm getting bored LaurenLauren Martins - www.youtube.com/user/gisellemartins20 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gisellemartins 0 #69 October 26, 2012 Quotewww.borgeltinstruments.com/GPSvsPressurealtitude.pdf Interesting read on GPS and barometric altimetry. Comparing GPS vs Barometric sensor? as debated to death on this topic, they are used for different things, there is no point on comparing them. That's why ALL sailplanes ( including the one on link you posted ) use a barometric sensor for their variometers and not a GPS. When anyone says it is difficult to make such a device that doesn't mean impossible and that there aren't many in the market for sale already. Now here we have a product of a big company "Brauninger" with years of experience all credentials with some of the best engineers and pilots in the segment with a product that go from 0-200km/h without the problem that you KEEP INSISTING about. Makes me laugh really lol This is just one among many. http://www.brauniger.com/en/products/flight-instruments/iq-compeo/technical-data.htmlLauren Martins - www.youtube.com/user/gisellemartins20 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
unclecharlie95 3 #70 October 26, 2012 I used a prototype unit of the wingsuit Recon today, worked a treat BASEstore.it Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Baxter99 0 #71 October 26, 2012 Thank goodness we have Giselle back to enertain us while we wait for production. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gisellemartins 0 #72 October 26, 2012 Quote Thank goodness we have Giselle back to enertain us while we wait for production. Watch and try to Learn something Baxter LaurenLauren Martins - www.youtube.com/user/gisellemartins20 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gisellemartins 0 #73 October 26, 2012 Quote I used a prototype unit of the wingsuit Recon today, worked a treat That is great news, could you please tell us if there is vario (sink/climb rate) in the display together with Altitude, GR and Speed? if not do you know if they will implement it? Cheers LaurenLauren Martins - www.youtube.com/user/gisellemartins20 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yeyo 1 #74 October 26, 2012 Ohhh miss, I missed you sooo much!!!! Whats a good paragliding forum? I wanna go there to talk about wingsuits, and question their knowledge and experience about everything! HISPA #93 DS #419.5 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gisellemartins 0 #75 October 26, 2012 Quote Ohhh miss, I missed you sooo much!!!! Whats a good paragliding forum? I wanna go there to talk about wingsuits, and question their knowledge and experience about everything! I highly recommend you to do that, you have lots to learn, wingsuits are not longer just falling, a wingsuit nowadays is actually a low performance fast glider, learning about, air, wind, thermals, cloud formation, ridge soaring can help you to stay in the air much longer on a wingsuit than just a normal "jumper" Visit, ask, read, learn etc... generally glider, hangglider and paraglider pilots are very good pilots, they generally know more about air dynamics and meteorology than those who fly motor airplanes as we depend absolutely on it to be able to stay up flying as we do not have turbines or propellers. I highly recommend you to visit any glider forum and learn a world that you don't know about that has direct use for flying your wingsuit.Lauren Martins - www.youtube.com/user/gisellemartins20 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
