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monkycndo

FFC coaches, what would you do?

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lets face the fact that it is predominately a 1 man audio- visual barrage presented to the USPA



Aside from the fact that its quite a large group that presenting the idea to USPA (some of the people who are now screaming 'murder', where actually part of presenting the exact same thing to USPA a few years earlier), it mostly reads as an audio-visual barage of a few opposed to structured and disciplined teaching methods.

The truth is, nothing bad will come of more structure and very strict rules on how FFCs should be taught. The sky wont come falling down, and the world will not end. But any student making a first wingsuit skydive WILL get the same quality instruction, regardless of where he goes. And not be get the 5 minute version, and a suit 3 sizes more advanced than what he/she should be jumping because somebody is more after a sale or quick buck than quality instruction and care for the student.

Try making a wingsuit jump at Snohomish coming weekend, and see how that one goes...thats the future of wingsuit flying. Rules forces uppon us from the top down. In this case, no more wingsuit flying, ever on that dropzone.
JC
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But any student making a first wingsuit skydive WILL get the same quality instruction, regardless of where he goes. And not be get the 5 minute version, and a suit 3 sizes more advanced than what he/she should be jumping because somebody is more after a sale or quick buck than quality instruction and care for the student.




I'm curious how the USPA or anyone can guarantee that this happens or even enforce any of the above. It's a rhetorical question because anyone skydiving even for a short period of time knows that not all instructors are equal and or follow all the rules after they get their ratings.

Who is to say that an instructor did or did not give all the information found in the SIM to the student and or spent the appropriate amount of time that the individual student required before taking them up?

We discussed this at the BOD and the bottom line is that there is no way for the USPA to enforce any of this as there are no "teeth" for the USPA, DZOs or S&Ts to use against instructors who don't give it 100%. The solution was the implementation of the 200 jump minimum BSR as violating a BSR can be used by DZSOs, S&Ts and the USPA against violators who fail to heed it. Unless you require WS instructors to film every one of their FFC's on the ground/air and send them in to the USPA for review, which is absurd at the highest of levels, there is no way to ensure how long a FFC lasts or what size suit a student is put in. A police state with pointless structure or rules is not needed for wingsuit instruction.
"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
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The truth is, nothing bad will come of more structure and very strict rules on how FFCs should be taught. The sky wont come falling down, and the world will not end. But any student making a first wingsuit skydive WILL get the same quality instruction, regardless of where he goes. And not be get the 5 minute version,.



Are you kidding me ?!?
There is nothing to ensure that a tandem or an AFF student gets a particular level of quality in instruction and these are regulated. The USPA is powerless unless something grossly tragic happens. I've seen some pretty shoddy AFF videos and tandem epic fails are practically viral. Buddy those bad AFF instructors are still flying.

In the mean time the USPA has to figure who can instruct WS and who can test the instructors ability to instruct WS. What happens in the mean time while we wait for this to be sorted out? Again WHY?

The people that were united behind this that are now bowing out of the proposal maybe now see the true agenda. Maybe the false credibility of "buying" into Factory chief instructor status via a huge fleet of factory demo suits instead of ability.

The reasons swoop ponds are closing have nothing to do with the USPA, It is a local decision. USPA wingsuit instructors won't have an effect on whether a DZ wants to ban wingsuits or not it will be as it always has a local event.

Meanwhile a wingsuit instructor examiner is gearing up to travel and clean up in the mobil WS instructor examiner arena...... no thanks.

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Meanwhile a wingsuit instructor examiner is gearing up to travel and clean up in the mobil WS instructor examiner arena...... no thanks.



Who is "gearing up to travel and clean up in the mobil WS instructor examiner arena?"
Are you referring to Simon's new truck?
https://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc6/250706_321479044601463_344584350_n.jpg
It's pretty sweet looking, but I didn't realize Simon was a USPA Examiner?

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Meanwhile a wingsuit instructor examiner is gearing up to travel and clean up in the mobil WS instructor examiner arena...... no thanks.



Who is "gearing up to travel and clean up in the mobil WS instructor examiner arena?"
Are you referring to Simon's new truck?
https://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc6/250706_321479044601463_344584350_n.jpg
It's pretty sweet looking, but I didn't realize Simon was a USPA Examiner?



Glad to like the truck, thanks.

It can't be us because WW revenue comes mostly from rentals not FFC and we don't have any immediate plans to change that.
Summer Rental special, 5 weeks for the price of 4! That is $160 a month.

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lets face the fact that it is predominately a 1 man audio- visual barrage presented to the USPA



Aside from the fact that its quite a large group that presenting the idea to USPA (some of the people who are now screaming 'murder', where actually part of presenting the exact same thing to USPA a few years earlier), it mostly reads as an audio-visual barage of a few opposed to structured and disciplined teaching methods.

The truth is, nothing bad will come of more structure and very strict rules on how FFCs should be taught. The sky wont come falling down, and the world will not end. But any student making a first wingsuit skydive WILL get the same quality instruction, regardless of where he goes. And not be get the 5 minute version, and a suit 3 sizes more advanced than what he/she should be jumping because somebody is more after a sale or quick buck than quality instruction and care for the student.

Try making a wingsuit jump at Snohomish coming weekend, and see how that one goes...thats the future of wingsuit flying. Rules forces uppon us from the top down. In this case, no more wingsuit flying, ever on that dropzone.



This sounds like there was an incident at Snohmish that we could probably learn something from. Could it be shared maybe? There might be a bit more support from the masses if this stuff wasn't so secretive.
Summer Rental special, 5 weeks for the price of 4! That is $160 a month.

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There is nothing to ensure that a tandem or an AFF student gets a particular level of quality in instruction and these are regulated. The USPA is powerless unless something grossly tragic happens. I've seen some pretty shoddy AFF videos and tandem epic fails are practically viral. Buddy those bad AFF instructors are still flying.



We've all seen those too. How many tandem and AFF jumps were conducted at your home DZ this weekend? 50? 100? 200? How many nation-wide? Of all those, how many included, as you say, epic fails?

Not that many. The point is that if the USPA puts a standard in place, it places some importance and weight behind the subject. Like it or not, people recognize the standards of the USPA, and tend to stick to them. If for no other reason than the legal liability of following the 'industry standard', when the USPA lays down the law, by and and large it is followed nation-wide.

Everyone is assuming the USPA is going to add to the existing program, and somehow do it harm. If the status-quo is so great, and the USPA sticks to that, what's the harm?

Nobody has seen the USPA proposal for the wingsuit instructor program, so to assume that it's going to do harm to the discipline just isn't called for. A nod in their favor is that they seem to be looking to the existing experts and the wingsuit community in general for input. With that in mind, keep those lines of communication open, so if they plan they draw up does look like it will do harm to the comminuty, you can speak up and get some changes made before they put the plan into motion.

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Dave like you I believe most USPA instruction is pretty good. Also like you my experience witnessing wingsuit instructors of the current status has been positive. It jives with your own personal comments to one of the board members in the instructors forum.

Now unlike you I've been very vocal against one self proclaimed expert after another claiming we all need sweeping changes in the wingsuit instructor realm and that they are just the ticket to get us there. Now let's refer back to yours and mines experience with the status quo instructors. I've been at this long before our current self grandized experts have even been jumping. Nine years later and the proposed new better way is the same old. It is not dynamically different than what is in the SIM now. I'm sick of it. If they had a better mouse trap I'd listen. It's all secret. Smoke and mirrors.

Do I think the USPA will do harm? No. Do I feel we need to be exposed to possible un needed complications. Oh hell no! Keep in mind my feelings are along the lines of your comments in terms of what should be a priority in the USPA resource allocation. You know canopy training issues,Airport access. The not low hanging fruit.

Sadly if this does not pass I can see he who's name should not be spoken taking concerns straight to the FAA.

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This sounds like there was an incident at Snohmish that we could probably learn something from. Could it be shared maybe? There might be a bit more support from the masses if this stuff wasn't so secretive.



I am (was) a jumper at Snohomish who sat through the new four-hour WS procedure briefing a day before it was canned. From what I understand, there were no WS incidents at Snohomish other than the occasional off-landing (which all disciplines have had). Someone from Snohomish, please correct me if I'm wrong.

For what it's worth, below is the bulk of the email from the DZO:

"Following months of research, review and collaboration with many members of the greater skydiving community, this decision has been made in the interest of maintaining high safety standards at Skydive Snohomish. Much progress was made in coming up with an acceptable procedure to accommodate existing operations and DZ specific variables. Some of the major issues that Snohomish faces which can't be easily changed right now are the two LZ set-up, up to 3 planes routinely operating at the same time, wingsuit flight paths over densely populated areas, the lack of comprehensive training and qualification, and the increased logistical workload it would take for DZ staff and the wingsuiting community to manage qualification, in-air separation and communication. I spend a great deal of time considering the skydivers and their ambitions, and the last thing I want to do is unnecessarily bridle anyone's passion for the sport or the discipline they choose to pursue. Individually, the above issues could probably be addressed, but as a whole they represent a safety risk that in good conscience, I can not support."

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This sounds like there was an incident at Snohmish that we could probably learn something from. Could it be shared maybe? There might be a bit more support from the masses if this stuff wasn't so secretive.



I am (was) a jumper at Snohomish who sat through the new four-hour WS procedure briefing a day before it was canned. From what I understand, there were no WS incidents at Snohomish other than the occasional off-landing (which all disciplines have had). Someone from Snohomish, please correct me if I'm wrong.

For what it's worth, below is the bulk of the email from the DZO:

"Following months of research, review and collaboration with many members of the greater skydiving community, this decision has been made in the interest of maintaining high safety standards at Skydive Snohomish. Much progress was made in coming up with an acceptable procedure to accommodate existing operations and DZ specific variables. Some of the major issues that Snohomish faces which can't be easily changed right now are the two LZ set-up, up to 3 planes routinely operating at the same time, wingsuit flight paths over densely populated areas, the lack of comprehensive training and qualification, and the increased logistical workload it would take for DZ staff and the wingsuiting community to manage qualification, in-air separation and communication. I spend a great deal of time considering the skydivers and their ambitions, and the last thing I want to do is unnecessarily bridle anyone's passion for the sport or the discipline they choose to pursue. Individually, the above issues could probably be addressed, but as a whole they represent a safety risk that in good conscience, I can not support."



Based on this info I think this is 100% valid. I agree with Jarno, I DO think this is the future of wingsuiting. At some dropzones\locations it is not actually an activity that plays well with others. Just as CRW\Cross Country doesn't work well in some drop zones.

I have been at drop zones where airspace restrictions prevented a safe spot away from the airport for a flock. We have all been at boogies that have too many planes in the air to allow hop n pops or high pulls.

It isn't a great disaster if a small % of drop zones determine it is unsafe to allow wingsuit operations. Let's not blow this out of proportion and scare monger.

A WSI wouldn't help one bit here anyways. If there is no local knowledge to lean on then there sure wouldn't be a local person able to get a WSI. A communication campaign to S&TA, Pilots, TI, DZO, etc would be far more effective. I have offered before to financially support such an effort and the offer is still valid.
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for every dropzone running 3 turbine aircraft simultaneously over a busy residential area, there is AT LEAST one DZ running a single cessna over peaceful countryside which is perfect to wingsuit skydive with no traffic issues or no big deal with off landings.

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for every dropzone running 3 turbine aircraft simultaneously over a busy residential area, there is AT LEAST one DZ running a single cessna over peaceful countryside which is perfect to wingsuit skydive with no traffic issues or no big deal with off landings.



What are the chances of finding a qualified wingsuiter to mentor you at those DZs? What are the chances of learning to flock at those DZs (beyond a 4-way, if you can even figure out how to get 4 wingsutiers out of a cessna at the same time)?

Given the above limitations, what the prospects for the wingsuit market in the future?

Like most things it seems, you need to look beyond your own horizons when considering this issue.

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Based on this info I think this is 100% valid. I agree with Jarno, I DO think this is the future of wingsuiting. At some dropzones\locations it is not actually an activity that plays well with others. Just as CRW\Cross Country doesn't work well in some drop zones.



Unlike CRW, the biggest fear developing with regards to wingsuiting is damage to material (planes), and outlandings that seem to be way more frequent than any other dicipline (including CRW).

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It isn't a great disaster if a small % of drop zones determine it is unsafe to allow wingsuit operations.



I would agree if that statement had been 'determine wingsuits add to much hassle to normal operations' such as outlandings, longer spots etc add on other dropzones. But once dropzones, small or big, start tagging the dicipline with the word 'dangerous' we enter a whole other downward spiral.

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A WSI wouldn't help one bit here anyways.



It actually would. As it would set a standard that people have to stick to with regards to instruction. And also force older jumpers that hardly jump, yet talk a lot about wingsuit flyer to re-evaluate their knowledge and skill and perhaps get some retraining on exits, flying and general safety awareness. And most of all, it would stop the clueless people from teaching. And thats a big issue currently. Having a good coach teach at a dropzone, talk about safety and what suits to jump at what experience. Yet having Mr Cool show up the next week, slap people in big suits, flocks bigger than they should be flying in, and no attention to exits or tecnique in whatever way.

A WSI rating will prevent that guy from instructing as well.

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I have offered before to financially support such an effort and the offer is still valid.



Im glad you have the finances to support it. Perhaps take up a 2nd and 3rd USPA membership, and support it through the structure for teaching and instruction thats already in place?
Dont try to re-invent the wheel, by refusing to take the steps that make most sense.
JC
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once dropzones, small or big, start tagging the dicipline with the word 'dangerous' we enter a whole other downward spiral.



Dropzones are not tagging us dangerous. Phoenix fly did that. Not the girl sewing suits but the BIG chief instructor. It's all in his report. You didn't get a copy?

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So you are attacking a company and some individual you feel threatened by...can we please stick to the subject of a wingsuit instructor rating and not attack people?

I will never understand the me vs. you attitude in the same sport and discipline. It's immature.

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I see a lot of crying saying 'we dont need this' but so far all reports from dropzones that are limiting wingsuit flying have come neither from Phoenix-Fly, nor from any big chief instructor, nor from hidden reports.
They came from the DZO's, aircraft owners, pilots and fellow skydivers that see people doing stupid stuff more than its doing our discipline right...

I see spot is an easy target because he dares say the things that several people dont want to hear. But sticking your head in the sand isnt the answer either.
JC
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I love wingsuiting!!!!

I'm over the drama, the agendas, the hatred, the attacking, the name calling, the self righteous assholes, and the oh-so ever boring flocking.

But not safety. I don't want people to die or hurt themselves.
Many simply do not care - even though it would not affect them in any way whatsoever.

You have your facts wrong in my opinion.
This is not a single company, entity, or person's effort by any means.
B|

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I see spot is an easy target because he dares say the things that several people dont want to hear. But sticking your head in the sand isnt the answer either.



Agreed post the videos of his presentations to our board of directors on the phoenix-fly website right next to the videos of Robi & friends carveing sick lines down the big mountain.

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Board presentations are open to anyone wanting to attend. You could have been there if you truly cared.

Aside from screaming "I dont want this" there arent a lot of valid points made as to why more standardization isnt a good idea. Shifting your attacks from a guy, to a company, to another guy doesnt really change whats happening in the real world.

Try shifting from hate to logic, and quit the personal attacks.
JC
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Corporate attacks. Field rep. Represents the brand whether you like it or not. Boss of training division. Fired all of the trainers a few years ago until they could recertify under the new standard. Now he wants to fire people that never worked there.

I type this with little to no hate measurable with modern technology.

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