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Tailstrikes

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I too would like to know where my favorite sport is banned...I would hate to turn up and be disappointed. Can we get a list please?



To what benefit?
If you're visiting a specific dropzone, pick up the phone and call them.

Conversely, a list is published.
Skydive ZYX doesn't allow wingsuiting.
Typical DZ.commer response "F**k Skydive ZYX, they hate wingsuiters."

It's somewhat already being said.

What does Skydive XYZ get out of it? A bad rep when they're really just worried about preventing the compromise of their aircraft and their revenue, simply because a dumbass might hit their tail.

In the meanwhile, perhaps someone(s) are having conversations and providing information to Skydive ZYX that might help them re-think their decision, and hopefully restore wingsuiting to their DZ. Skydive Santa Barbara is one case in point. They banned wingsuiting, a solution offered, and now the DZ has re-allowed wingsuiting (albeit restricted).
DZO's all over the country are concerned about the proliferation of wingsuiters, smaller/low-tail aircraft, and the best response is "Who are they, I'd hate to be disappointed?" [:/]

We're doing this to ourselves. If you want to be disappointed, look in the mirror.

It's BASE in Yosemite all over again.

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I too would like to know where my favorite sport is banned Can we get a list please?



Its a simple request. Its a very easy answer.

I'd like to shout a thank you to the Lodi wingsuit posse for being Frank, up front and open with information..... not Kryptic when previously, through no fault of their own, their home DZ also had a hard ban on wingsuits. A fairly large group of regular and talented wingsuiters asked for patience from the rest of the community while they try to work things out... which in the end they did.

Props for them for having faith in the "rest of the community" but still sharing the information, for not treating people like children.

If a DZ has banned Wingsuiting or swooping or perhaps turns greater than 90 under a 1000 feet there is probably a very good reason from their recent history. It should not be hard to grasp why but it is good to have public knowledge it is partly why these forums exist.

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in reply to "Arch And Scrunch. Anything else and you're begging for a quick death. Teaching anything else is how we get Miami Tailstrike. The LAST thing you want to do is encourage a technique that creates ideal conditions for maximum possible exploitation of available lift in the moment of exit!
..................................

Since I've been outed as a potential murderer :ph34r: I'd like to share some experiences that have made me exit the way I do.
I was taught to arch out the door. Sure keep the wings closed, but ARCH.

Then I nearly hit the tailplane ...(on a low P GTi.)
On the ground the pilot nearly hit me. Feeuke.. he was such a nice guy, but he went purple with rage...might 've had something to do with him not wearing a parachute.

So I changed my exit method and starting sitting in the door, figuring I was already halfway away from the tailplane.

then an armwing cutaway handle got caught by its velcro and left in the door .

Time for more thought.

NOW, I project myself as far as possible forwards and downwards away from the tail plane. Phuck the getting stable and flying quickly bit .
I drop like a rock out the door, and don't generate anywhere near the lift the archin bit did for me.

yes I'm a lightweight and yes the plane was going a bit fast , but it would've been my fault if I had taken that aircraft out. The guy that initially taught me wouldn't've got the blame.

I'm thinking the getting flying quickly bit is what's generating the majority of tail strikes

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I think it is alarmist to say n number of drop zones are banning wingsuiting but to keep the drop zone names a secret. Makes me think there is a hidden agenda. What is the big secret?
Summer Rental special, 5 weeks for the price of 4! That is $160 a month.

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I think it is alarmist to say n number of drop zones are banning wingsuiting but to keep the drop zone names a secret. Makes me think there is a hidden agenda. What is the big secret?



There is no hidden agenda its sitting like a turd in the salad bowl and alarmist is the name of the game around this forum.

Normally I would agree 100% with you but there has been a few tail strikes in the last few and I believe it is completely possible to probable a couple of out of the way tandem mills are reviewing the value of sport jumpers and their smaller segment of special needs ( on exit) wingsuit jumpers and their impact on overall operations and maintenance...... and that is never a crime from an owner /operator standpoint.

Starting this post but not naming the name .... suspect.

Maybe some local jumpers at the DZ(s) in question will shed some light and ask for the rest of the WS communities patience and support while they attempt to work things out at a local level. I can really respect that approach.

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I think it is alarmist to say n number of drop zones are banning wingsuiting but to keep the drop zone names a secret. Makes me think there is a hidden agenda. What is the big secret?



Two of the DZO's that haven't publically reported their tailstrikes indicated along the lines of "If I see anything about this posted on DZ.com, you'll never jump here."

I'd prefer to keep the trust per agreement.

Jarno pointed out the trend, relevant aircraft and wingsuit types. That's all that matters, IMO.

More known tailstrikes in 2011 than known in 2000-2010 combined.
You don't find that alarming?

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Two of the DZO's that haven't publically reported their tailstrikes indicated along the lines of "If I see anything about this posted on DZ.com, you'll never jump here."



Wait, so they banned wing suiting, but don't want it publicly known? I don't get it. Or they are allowing wing suiting but have asked you to spread the word for everyone to be more careful?

Wouldn't a better post have been XYZ and ABC banned wing suiting due to people not respecting the rules and the aircraft, then?

Why can't people ever just say what they mean? I need my fucking decoder ring sometimes to read this forum.

_justin

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Time for more thought.



Indeed. And here's a good one: correlation does not equal causation.

You may have been arching and had wings closed (or thought you did) when you nearly had a tail strike, but that does not imply the former caused the latter. There is a reason that every single instructional method out there teaches arching. If you want to buck that trend and be the first to prove that the earth is round, go right ahead, but please present some compelling evidence. Until then, your advice is dangerous to newbies and needs to be loudly disagreed with.

There are so many things wrong with your description from a kinematics standpoint. You suggest "projecting yourself forward and down." I can hardly be sure of the correct interpretation of that, but it SOUNDS like you are saying to drive yourself in a certain direction by pushing off of the plane with your feet. First, that is the number one thing we DON'T want newbies (or anybody) doing. We fall away from the door, we do not jump out. Jumping out leads to jumping up. Second, the only way you could push yourself downwards would be to have your feet still contacting the door but your entire body below it. Assuming such a maneuver was desirable and possible, the best way to get into that orientation would be to arch and look up. In many many cases in this sport and others, the body follows the head. However, the exception is with fallrate. Look up, you go down. Look down, you go up. Hence, we look up on exit.
www.WingsuitPhotos.com

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Trae, a short story just to highlight the physics, man.
6 years ago I flew a little GTI. Had me a pilot willing to give me whatever exit speeds I wanted-in an Otter.

I therefore learned the insane art of high speed exits with wingsuits- from Otters. Up to 140 knots.

Eventually had my own feature article in the Boston Globe with video online.

The key to survival: Arch and scrunch. Wings wrapped around me with my hands gripping fistfuls of the other arm's fabric at the shoulders.

I could not keep the tailwing closed completely. Not possible. The act of stepping out the door opens it enough that when the wind hit my legs, SNAP, tailwing gets slammed open and out. Result: am flying while still hovering in the doorframe. At enhanced levels of windblast. Ballistic energy levels in a confined area. Very intelligent.


Under those conditions the only way to maintain control and keep from getting lofted any higher than a brief steady-state hover just outside the door was to arch as hard as possible. If I'd done anything else, I'd have died as fast as Steve. I stopped performing that little stunt right about when Machs hit the market so I wouldn't set a bad example and because I knew damn well if it was barely survivable in a GTI, trying it with anything bigger would be bad...


A few years later, Steve stumbled on just the right technique to accidentally copy that stunt- unsuccessfully.
If Steve had kept the habit of arching and scrunching he'd have lived.
"Projecting" yourself out the door is a really bad idea man, seriously. It isn't about "getting flying sooner" its about control. Your approach to exits kind of sounds like since you didn't learn or weren't taught a stable exit you resorted to "flinging" yourself like a wild hard throw to get clear.

Dealing with a control problem by resorting to an even less controllable technique isn't much of a solution, man. And it may work acceptably well for solos but for any serious flocks with serious pilots, the ability to just step out drop into flight and turn with the others is kind of a prerequisite expectation. A fundamental basic wingsuit handling skill.

I'd like to respectfully suggest that the string of mishaps you describe taught you the wrong lessons and prevented you from learning proper wingsuit exit management by causing you to cope with the problems with on the spot improv which in time became normal for you.

Further I'd guess you've relatively limited flock experience or else you'd have eventually noticed you're the "odd-man-out" where everyone else is exiting standard flock style while you're still doing the headfirst nosedive thing. Even if you didn't notice, the rest of the flock would.

Not to pick on you at all, just a suggestion from one pilot to another that this is a gap in your training you ought to remedy and which both puts you in extreme danger and severely limits your available wingsuit experience until you do. Large flocks, world records, competition, I do all of those, and in any of those events if I was exiting like that I'd be either punted from the record effort for lack of skill or laughed at. Or both.
No offense.
-B
Live and learn... or die, and teach by example.

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in reply to "There are so many things wrong with your description from a kinematics standpoint. "
......................................

This is a good thing talking about this yeah ?


OK you don't like where I look when I exit?
Its easy to pick my words apart with your disingenuous assumptions.

I don't jump up out the door .
I fly my body where I want it to go.

Why so many tailstrikes .???
I'm guessing its not from looking forwards and downwards, but very well may be from arching head up out the door.

Why don't you give us a step by step break down of the way YOU exit, in YOUR words.

edited cause mumma taught me not to think being rude is funny:D

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in reply to ""Projecting" yourself out the door is a really bad idea man, seriously."
..........................................

I think you're getting a bit caught up on my choice of words. and missing what I see as a simple thing not that different from what you're saying just minus the emphasis on the arch.

Imagine this just for a moment
You're standing in the door crunched up ready to exit, you look where you want to go, then go there.
That's what I'm calling projecting .

I just don't see what's wrong with that.

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"I think you're getting a bit caught up on my choice of words."
Fair enough. I may be reading too much into that.
The video of the Miami Tailstrike is around here somewhere. Now those guys, they were projecting bigtime.

The whole point of Arch and Scrunch is that in any air at any speed from any angle you're arching into, arching creates maximum possible fallrate. I use arch and scrunch in aggressive flocking as an evasive ninja trick: many times I've had a bird closing on me from the side at speeds I knew at a glance they could neither turn nor brake and a collision was guaranteed. I yank in all wings and arch like hell, surprise sudden plummet, nobody ever thinks to turn their wings off to GAIN mobility and its amazing how few birds actually think in 3D. Works great, just ducks right under the out of control bird. Time after time something coming at me and I think "DOWN!"

Looking down on exit feels like drop like a rock but it isn't. Its actually prolonging your exit hover time measurably. I didn't give a complete description of my Otter speed exit technique. The next step after arch and scrunch was the tail popping open, which would flop me flat in an instant as I was ducking under the tail. At that instant the only thing keeping me alive was that I knew not to look down because if I look down at 140 knot exit speed I pop up in a millisecond and get decapitated by the tail I'm trying to avoid being driven into.

Its THAT twitchy, playing with speeds that high that close to the plane. The next step after that was to open my wings and put my head down and look down, letting my upper body flop flat and level with the legs thus gaining maximum possible cupping action combined with the flop-flat move. Resulting in catapulting myself several hundred feet above the Otter easily, but only after having to duck under the tail at 140 knots to do it.

I'd say THIS
"I've been watching newbie WSers arch out the door like they've been taught (not by me ) , with their wings open like PROPER dicks."
Is what set you up to exit the way you do. Bad examples, done badly. Whoever taught those new birds to arch out the door with wings open is a hazard to our profession. Since you already know better, how come you ain't teachin' em not to?

Anyway I get what you're sayin', the look where you want to go and go there bit. Thing is, thats essentially a higher-level thought-ninja thing. A newer bird isn't going to integrate that with the essentials of the movement, they'll physically interpret it literally- look down, cupping the chest and shoulders while they're at it- and then all it takes is a little loose wing, and up they go...
-B
Live and learn... or die, and teach by example.

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More known tailstrikes in 2011 than known in 2000-2010 combined.
You don't find that alarming?



I prefer to make my opinions based on facts and I just don't feel like I have any facts on this one. I only know of 3 wingsuit tail strikes which have been over a 5 year period. I am not saying others don't happen but I just don't have enough information to mull on.

Sounds like you must have a serious set of facts which unlike BASE fatalities and skydive accidents are just too secret to share. A community can't address an issue that isn't shared so it sounds like just a few of you have the burden of solving the issue, good luck.

Never the less I will continue to avoid tails and encourage others to do so!
Summer Rental special, 5 weeks for the price of 4! That is $160 a month.

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Imagine this just for a moment
You're standing in the door crunched up ready to exit, you look where you want to go, then go there.
That's what I'm calling projecting .

I just don't see what's wrong with that.



What's wrong with that, is that in a wingsuit you do not always go where you look. Sometimes it is quite the opposite. Why do we look backwards (tuck our chin to our chest) when doing a max performance solo flight. Is it because we want to move backwards? Why is it that newbie trackers can never catch the base in a tracking dive, while looking forward/up at him, and spilling air off their chest?

It's not just limited to wingsuits. When a newbie RW flyer goes low, do we tell them to look straight up so they can go back up? No. You do not always go where you look.
www.WingsuitPhotos.com

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I prefer to be a part of the solution, not exacerbate relationships with DZ's.

How long did it take for Skydive Santa Barbara's incident to hit the internet? Even after a letter was sent out to all SDSB jumpers? Why did it take so long?
Wingsuits were banned until last weekend, and now wingsuits are restricted to a butt-on-floor exit. They're not the only one. One phone call to that DZO led to another unreported incident which led to yet another one. Call Dave Hughes, maybe he'll lead you to further info, and you can start from there.
They're also not all in the US. Some of your US friends were present. Wonder why they have forbidden the release of the video, and why they haven't spoken about it on DZ.com? They post here fairly regularly. Hmmm...?

You can "only think of three in the past five years?" There are three on DZ.com in 2011 alone.:S

How about you focus on the "who, when, where." That's really important stuff.
Others can do the real work and focus on the "Why/how/solutions."

Trae, as Matt, Lurch, Jarno, and Macca have pointed out, the student needs to be head-up, looking at prop/door, elbows in/hands in front. An arch creates a cup. What some get away with in small suits leads to habits that likely won't serve so well in bigger suits.

Additionally, students must be taught that no matter what happens at the door (losing stability, slipping, whatever) they must stay closed tight until they can see the aircraft. Two of the tailstrikes this year resulted from the jumper being unstable at the door and "reaching" for air. One broke his hand, the other broke his ankle.

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Some of your US friends were present. Wonder why they have forbidden the release of the video, and why they haven't spoken about it on DZ.com? They post here fairly regularly. Hmmm...?



I am going to need one of those decoder rings also.
Summer Rental special, 5 weeks for the price of 4! That is $160 a month.

Try before You Buy with Wicked Wingsuits - WingsuitRental.com

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Is it faster to arch or dive? ie do we cut through the air better in a arch or in a dive?



I love your photos, nice idea with the skull. :) I also do this kind of 'dive-forward' exits, but do believe that this is an advanced exit technique. You don't only have to have a lot of experience on how the wind in the door effects your suit but you also have to have a good feeling for the setup the plane is in.
For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong.

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in reply to "What's wrong with that, is that in a wingsuit you do not always go where you look"
............................

Is it faster to arch or dive? ie do we cut through the air better in a arch or in a dive?



Nice photos, but the guy is arched in BOTH pictures. He is only rotated 90 degrees in the second one. If you can get in that orientation after exit, great. Just maintain the arch.

Although, if you do get in that orientation you will be doing flips since the wind is now hitting your back (as your nifty wind indicator shows). However, neither I nor anyone else here cares if you do flips or stay stable. Just maintain the arch.

You are correct that in freefall a de-arched dive will make you go down faster than an arched dive. But it will also make you move forward faster. And on exit, everything is rotated 90 degrees. Freefall forward = exit up. So de-arching on exit will make you go up faster. Up is where the skull is.
www.WingsuitPhotos.com

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Does anyone have a link handy to a video of what they consider the perfect exit to be?
Sorry I've only seen about a billion on YouTube but thought someone might know of a particularly good example.



This one is close, but he should be more arched.
http://www.matthoover.com/gallery/skydiving-photos/2006-03/2006-03_p20.html#navbar

It would be great if Trae's wish could come true and the guy's head and torso could be below the plane while his feet are still up in the door. But it's not realistic to get in this position unless you can teleport through the floor of the plane, or you exit from a handstand. We walk on our feet, and when you get out that door, your head will be the highest point on your body. Yes if you know what you are doing you can get into a headlow orientation very quickly, but it will not be "feet in the door and everything else below."

Even the best pilots like Robi go up a little bit on an advanced move like that.
http://www.matthoover.com/gallery/skydiving-photos/2007-10/2007-10_p32.html#navbar
http://www.matthoover.com/gallery/skydiving-photos/2007-10/2007-10_p33.html#navbar
www.WingsuitPhotos.com

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in reply to "So de-arching on exit will make you go up faster. Up is where the skull is. "
......................

Can't disagree with that.

My emphasis wasn't on arching OR dearching but flying your body with the wings closed .
Imho the wings being open on exit , trumps most body positions.

I agree that it is probably a very good idea to put some arch in especially when starting out. keep yourself as stable as poss. but not to sacrifice safety for stability, or rapid transiton to wing open flight.

My exit priority has been to miss the tailplane and now over time, stability issues have naturally been minimised.

I'm just happy on my exits to feel that the closest I come to the tailplane is standing in the door...but then of course I could be wrong :D

edited to ps. have you noticed how many WS exits barrel out towards the tailplane??? ie from the front of the door out past the back of the door?
I've been working on making my exits move forwards and down, and that means moving forwards in the door, in the plane, legs collapsing under me as I project myself just past the bottom front corner.

ie from the rear of the door but mid height , to the front of the door aiming low, just outside the bottom of the front of the door.(easier to do than say :ph34r:)

That helps get you in a position close to that diving wooden feller, almost before you fully leave the plane.

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Heres another way to describe the movement.

You're gunna have to use your imagination and suspend your disbelief plus it helps if you are standing up.

Imagine you are in the front shield line of a gallic/celtic battle line You're in a shoving match with a Roman legion, .(you can be a Roman if you have to :D)
battle line to battle line, shield to shield.

You have to lean into it., stop them from pushing you over , hold them back......THEN as one , you let them start to push you back but only the top of your body, your feet stay firmly planted, your arms , squeezed up against your chest your fists bunched under your chin,
the rest of your body tenses and keeps taking the load,
THEN suddenly ! you push down under their shields keeping your arms in close, you let their force push itself over the top of you , as you push under them toppling them enmass,..... then the second line cleans the ones that fell, back up with your shield ....
:$
huh what's this I'm in freefall better open me wings.......:)

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The two jumpships with lower horizontal elevators (Beech & PAC750) are both low-wing planes. So for these (when looking forward on exit), wait till the plane’s main wing trailing edge goes by your face to open your wings.



Or just do a tail-first (poop) exit and stay knees in and bent forwars until the tail goes past.

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