gisellemartins 0 #101 January 25, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuoteyour linky not worky it's a link to someone soaring a wingsuit dont mean that one, the one just above my post, her soaring a mini-paraglider as she calls it.. Sorry, that's the correct link http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9uwz70N_vOQLauren Martins - www.youtube.com/user/gisellemartins20 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dqpacker 7 #102 January 25, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuoteyour linky not worky it's a link to someone soaring a wingsuit dont mean that one, the one just above my post, her soaring a mini-paraglider as she calls it.. it was a bad joke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DSE 3 #103 January 25, 2012 The link goes to a 7.5 minute video of a paraglider sitting on the ground. At 7:00, the pilot eventually comes into view and plays with the risers. The glider does not leave the ground. Good joke tho...that was 8 mins (I slid back to see if I'd missed something) of wasted time. It might not have been a paraglider, it might have been a white sheet with strings tied to it. I'll give it a 5 for shot composition. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gisellemartins 0 #104 January 25, 2012 Quote The link goes to a 7.5 minute video of a paraglider sitting on the ground. At 7:00, the pilot eventually comes into view and plays with the risers. The glider does not leave the ground. Good joke tho...that was 8 mins (I slid back to see if I'd missed something) of wasted time. It might not have been a paraglider, it might have been a white sheet with strings tied to it. I'll give it a 5 for shot composition. I'm not sure if I understood your post ( my bad english) but the pilot flying on the black/green harness with a small glider in most of the video is me. yes there is a paraglider on the grass near where the camera is mounted and??Lauren Martins - www.youtube.com/user/gisellemartins20 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #105 January 25, 2012 QuoteI'm not sure if I understood your post ( my bad english) but the pilot flying on the black/green harness with a small glider in most of the video is me. yes there is a paraglider on the grass near where the camera is mounted and?? The point was that it's a single camera shot of an activity that needs far more than that. Watch the video, and notice how much time you're NOT in the frame, and even when you are, it's not exactly 'exciting'. I do like how you quickly edited the part of your post where you claimed to be confised. We all know it was about DSEs post, but it was just inviting comments about other things you might be confused about. Back to the tpoic at hand, here's another reason what you're talking about won't work - control. Both hang gliders and paragliders require the pilot to shift their weight about under the wing to effect change in flight. Of course, to do this, they need to be seperate from the wing, and thus both hangs the pilot underneath. A sailplane, that hold the pilot as 'one' with the wing, used control surfaces to effect change in the wing, and thus uses a tail boom with mutilple control surfaces to make that happen. The intersection of hang glider and sailplane is something called a Swift, and it's a rigid wing with no tail boom and no landing gear, the pilot uses their legs as the landing gear. It's a foot launch device, and then the pilot sit in a sling in a 'cockpit'. Again, though, the swift has hard surface, pilot actuated control surfaces. Your assertion that spars can be made to allow for longer, soar-able wings, is lacking any sort of control methodology. If you intend for the pilot to manipulate the wings, then they cannot be connected with a load-bearing spar, as they would need to be moved independantly (like falpping, but not), and the pilot still has the problem of lacking the strength to support such a wing with just their muscularity. If you do intened for a continuous spar, meaning the pilot does not have to support the loads from the wings, you have no control methodology. With a 'rigid' wing, and no weight shifting ability, you now need control surfaces and an actuating system for them. Esestially, you could build that today by making a fabric winged Swift. In the end, what you have is far from a 'suit' of any kind. You have some interesting ideas, but you're bouncing back and forth between paraglider, hand glider and wing suit when making your asserstions, and all of those are VERY different flying machines and cannot intermingled when looking to design something new. They have fundamentally different design pricinipals whcih you cannot just mix and match if you expect to actually succeed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gisellemartins 0 #106 January 25, 2012 QuoteQuoteI'm not sure if I understood your post ( my bad english) but the pilot flying on the black/green harness with a small glider in most of the video is me. yes there is a paraglider on the grass near where the camera is mounted and?? The point was that it's a single camera shot of an activity that needs far more than that. Watch the video, and notice how much time you're NOT in the frame, and even when you are, it's not exactly 'exciting'. I do like how you quickly edited the part of your post where you claimed to be confised. We all know it was about DSEs post, but it was just inviting comments about other things you might be confused about. Back to the tpoic at hand, here's another reason what you're talking about won't work - control. Both hang gliders and paragliders require the pilot to shift their weight about under the wing to effect change in flight. Of course, to do this, they need to be seperate from the wing, and thus both hangs the pilot underneath. A sailplane, that hold the pilot as 'one' with the wing, used control surfaces to effect change in the wing, and thus uses a tail boom with mutilple control surfaces to make that happen. The intersection of hang glider and sailplane is something called a Swift, and it's a rigid wing with no tail boom and no landing gear, the pilot uses their legs as the landing gear. It's a foot launch device, and then the pilot sit in a sling in a 'cockpit'. Again, though, the swift has hard surface, pilot actuated control surfaces. Your assertion that spars can be made to allow for longer, soar-able wings, is lacking any sort of control methodology. If you intend for the pilot to manipulate the wings, then they cannot be connected with a load-bearing spar, as they would need to be moved independantly (like falpping, but not), and the pilot still has the problem of lacking the strength to support such a wing with just their muscularity. If you do intened for a continuous spar, meaning the pilot does not have to support the loads from the wings, you have no control methodology. With a 'rigid' wing, and no weight shifting ability, you now need control surfaces and an actuating system for them. Esestially, you could build that today by making a fabric winged Swift. In the end, what you have is far from a 'suit' of any kind. You have some interesting ideas, but you're bouncing back and forth between paraglider, hand glider and wing suit when making your asserstions, and all of those are VERY different flying machines and cannot intermingled when looking to design something new. They have fundamentally different design pricinipals whcih you cannot just mix and match if you expect to actually succeed. No, you wrong, to turn a paraglider we use mainly the brakes (at least me) break left go left, break right go right. I always edit my messages a few minutes after post, english is not my first language so I always have to correct my spelling after posting. I removed the word "confused" but with no special reason, I'm still confused when he say there is noone flying until 7mim, because there is. weird really.. A wingsuit with a carbon or graphene fiber spars could even if connected on the back could easily turn, just add a joint close to your hand where the pilot can close a bit of the wing in the side he want to turn to, just like the birds do. Anyway the topic is about the dream of soaring on a wingsuit, not about building carbon fibers extended arm suits. Edit. I already mentioned ( if you did care about reading the topic before posting) I mentioned about definitions of hangglider, paraglider sailplane wingsuit etc...Lauren Martins - www.youtube.com/user/gisellemartins20 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #107 January 25, 2012 QuoteNo, you wrong, to turn a paraglider we use mainly the brakes (at least me) break left go left, break right go right Nice try sweeheart, but applying the brakes simply slows one side of the wing, and swings the jumper out to the other side of the wing, effecting the majority of the change to the wing. Pilot position under the wing is the primary control method for a ram-air canopy. You adjust that position with the control inputs, but at the end of the day, the pilots weight shifting around does the bulk of the work in effecting the attitude of the wing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gisellemartins 0 #108 January 25, 2012 QuoteQuoteNo, you wrong, to turn a paraglider we use mainly the brakes (at least me) break left go left, break right go right Nice try sweeheart, but applying the brakes simply slows one side of the wing, and swings the jumper out to the other side of the wing, effecting the majority of the change to the wing. Pilot position under the wing is the primary control method for a ram-air canopy. You adjust that position with the control inputs, but at the end of the day, the pilots weight shifting around does the bulk of the work in effecting the attitude of the wing. You obviously is not a PG pilot, you have no idea of what you are talking about, I'm a experienced paraglider pilot, 7 years of flying since my 16's and I always used brake to turn. body weightlifting will do nothing if you want to turn quickly, the brakes do the main job.Lauren Martins - www.youtube.com/user/gisellemartins20 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DSE 3 #109 January 25, 2012 Quote Quote The link goes to a 7.5 minute video of a paraglider sitting on the ground. At 7:00, the pilot eventually comes into view and plays with the risers. The glider does not leave the ground. Good joke tho...that was 8 mins (I slid back to see if I'd missed something) of wasted time. It might not have been a paraglider, it might have been a white sheet with strings tied to it. I'll give it a 5 for shot composition. I'm not sure if I understood your post ( my bad english) but the pilot flying on the black/green harness with a small glider in most of the video is me. yes there is a paraglider on the grass near where the camera is mounted and?? My apologies then. There is a woman playing with a zipper for a minute, then she disappears and it's 5 minutes of glider lying in the grass a few feet from the camera. At 7 minutes, she steps back into view and picks up the risers. Your bad english, my lack of knowing which of the several paragliders that are flying far away from the camera is you, I guess I still fail to see the relevance of this video to the topic. Are you genuinely believing that human muscle can replace the lines used to hold a miniparaglider's shape and span? From a non-engineering, math-retarded musician-type person... even I can see that this is not possible. Aside from the span, I don't see anything accounting for the significant drag increase generated by the wider wing. Even if our arms could maintain the sweep and support, we can't support the pressure of the relative wind and additional drag. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #110 January 25, 2012 QuoteYou obviously is not a PG pilot, you have no idea of what you are talking about, I'm a experienced paraglider pilot, 7 years of flying since my 16's and I always used brake to turn. body weightlifting will do nothing if you want to turn quickly, the brakes do the main job. I've been flying ram-air canopies since before you had your first training bra, and I can assure you I am quite correct. I did not imply that weight shift in the harness is the control method, it's the weight of the pilot shitinf below the wing that effects the change. You make that happen with control inputs, and that might be your toggles, but when you pull a toggle, the aerodynamic effect is just the slowing of the that side of the wing and of the other side of the wing flying around it. What allows the canopy to bank into the turn, and actually change direction, is the pilots weight swinging toward the outside of the turn, at which point line tension pulls the entire wing into a bank. As skydivers, we know this because we jump canopies with different length line sets. Short lined canopies react to inputs faster because the pilot is swinging through a shorter arc, and can move through that arc more quickly. Longer lined canopies react more slowly because it takes longer for the pilot to swing through the longer arc. The pilot is the load and provides the line tension which allows the wing to be a wing. When that load moves, so does the entire wing. It's what makes things happen, and if you had any credibility in this forum, it has just been lost. If you had not realized the relationship between your position under the wing and the attuitude of wing at any time in the last 7 years, you haven't really been paying attention. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gisellemartins 0 #111 January 25, 2012 QuoteQuoteYou obviously is not a PG pilot, you have no idea of what you are talking about, I'm a experienced paraglider pilot, 7 years of flying since my 16's and I always used brake to turn. body weightlifting will do nothing if you want to turn quickly, the brakes do the main job. I've been flying ram-air canopies since before you had your first training bra, and I can assure you I am quite correct. I did not imply that weight shift in the harness is the control method, it's the weight of the pilot shitinf below the wing that effects the change. You make that happen with control inputs, and that might be your toggles, but when you pull a toggle, the aerodynamic effect is just the slowing of the that side of the wing and of the other side of the wing flying around it. What allows the canopy to bank into the turn, and actually change direction, is the pilots weight swinging toward the outside of the turn, at which point line tension pulls the entire wing into a bank. As skydivers, we know this because we jump canopies with different length line sets. Short lined canopies react to inputs faster because the pilot is swinging through a shorter arc, and can move through that arc more quickly. Longer lined canopies react more slowly because it takes longer for the pilot to swing through the longer arc. The pilot is the load and provides the line tension which allows the wing to be a wing. When that load moves, so does the entire wing. It's what makes things happen, and if you had any credibility in this forum, it has just been lost. If you had not realized the relationship between your position under the wing and the attuitude of wing at any time in the last 7 years, you haven't really been paying attention. hahaha You have absolute no idea how to fly a paraglider or what you are talking about.... once you brake left it slow down and the right side will make the turn quickly and efficiently, thermalling you are always on the brakes in the side you making the turn 100% the time! the pilot weight shifting under the wing just intensify the turn but the main turn is done with the brakes, period. Any other experienced PG pilot to give this guy some help lolLauren Martins - www.youtube.com/user/gisellemartins20 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
virgin-burner 1 #112 January 25, 2012 Quote The link goes to a 7.5 minute video of a paraglider sitting on the ground. At 7:00, the pilot eventually comes into view and plays with the risers. The glider does not leave the ground. Good joke tho...that was 8 mins (I slid back to see if I'd missed something) of wasted time. It might not have been a paraglider, it might have been a white sheet with strings tied to it. I'll give it a 5 for shot composition. to her defense, the chicks you can actually see in the video seem to be quite hot; so it's all good! giselle, may i ask where that is!? looks like a nice countryside!“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.” -Hunter S. Thompson "No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try." -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dqpacker 7 #113 January 25, 2012 Is Devil's Dike hill, your personal hill. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gisellemartins 0 #114 January 25, 2012 Quote to her defense, the chicks you can actually see in the video seem to be quite hot; so it's all good! giselle, may i ask where that is!? looks like a nice countryside! Its in the southern England, Sussex near Brighton, Devils Dyke hill. It is a very beautiful place to fly Lauren Martins - www.youtube.com/user/gisellemartins20 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,621 #115 January 25, 2012 Quote Quote to her defense, the chicks you can actually see in the video seem to be quite hot; so it's all good! giselle, may i ask where that is!? looks like a nice countryside! Its in the southern England, Sussex near Brighton, Devils Dyke hill. It is a very beautiful place to fly Thought I recognized it. I grew up near there.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lvintw 0 #116 January 25, 2012 QuoteIts in the southern England, Sussex near Brighton, Devils Dyke hill. Beautiful place. Love it! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
virgin-burner 1 #117 January 25, 2012 Quote Quote to her defense, the chicks you can actually see in the video seem to be quite hot; so it's all good! giselle, may i ask where that is!? looks like a nice countryside! Its in the southern England, Sussex near Brighton, Devils Dyke hill. It is a very beautiful place to fly nice, i thought it could be england, but since you said english wasnt your first language.. i kinda expected it not to be. cool! “Some may never live, but the crazy never die.” -Hunter S. Thompson "No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try." -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tommyh 0 #118 January 25, 2012 Contrary to what a few people have mentioned here, there are a few wingsuits that have slightly extended winspans, resulting in a higher aspect ratio. The V-suits have grippers that are angled out a little bit, so arguably they could have an increased AR if flown completely improperly. The Pro-fly has grippers that stick straight out, increasing AR a litle bit. The really cool thing that I've seen in a couple of less common suits like the manta and the alien suits is the use of curved grippers, which result in a greater AR than straight grippers would give. So, even though we're talking about a tiny increase in AR, it is factually incorrect to say that it is factually incorrect that wingsuits have not recently been designed with increased AR over older suits. Flying is bitchin. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The111 0 #119 January 25, 2012 You are correct, new wingsuits have a slightly larger wingspan than older ones. But you seem to be overlooking the fact that they have a MUCH larger chord than the older ones. There's a reason it's called aspect ratio. If you take a fraction and slightly increase the numerator, and greatly increase the denominator, you decrease the overall value. With that in mind, aspect ratio has decreased over the years. Make a suit that looks like a Classic I, but with giant grippers pointing outward, and you will truly have an increased aspect ratio. But no suits have evolved in that direction. www.WingsuitPhotos.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,254 #120 January 25, 2012 QuoteYour bad english, my lack of knowing which of the several paragliders that are flying far away from the camera is you, I guess I still fail to see the relevance of this video to the topic. Well, obviously a wingsuit is almost the same size as the paraglider she's flying. Duh.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,254 #121 January 25, 2012 Quote The V-suits have grippers that are angled out a little bit, so arguably they could have an increased AR if flown completely improperly. The Pro-fly has grippers that stick straight out, increasing AR a litle bit. Nope, a V4 has a lower aspect ratio than an S3, and (although I haven't examined them too closely) I'm pretty sure a Profly wouldn't be much different from an Expert. Quote So, even though we're talking about a tiny increase in AR, it is factually incorrect to say that it is factually incorrect that wingsuits have not recently been designed with increased AR over older suits. You are factually incorrect.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gisellemartins 0 #122 January 25, 2012 Quote I'm not sure if I understood your post ( my bad english) but the pilot flying on the black/green harness with a small glider in most of the video is me. yes there is a paraglider on the grass near where the camera is mounted and?? My apologies then. There is a woman playing with a zipper for a minute, then she disappears and it's 5 minutes of glider lying in the grass a few feet from the camera. At 7 minutes, she steps back into view and picks up the risers. Your bad english, my lack of knowing which of the several paragliders that are flying far away from the camera is you, I guess I still fail to see the relevance of this video to the topic. Are you genuinely believing that human muscle can replace the lines used to hold a miniparaglider's shape and span? From a non-engineering, math-retarded musician-type person... even I can see that this is not possible. Aside from the span, I don't see anything accounting for the significant drag increase generated by the wider wing. Even if our arms could maintain the sweep and support, we can't support the pressure of the relative wind and additional drag. You don't need to apologize, I'm sure if I explain slowly for you, maybe twice, you gonna be able to understand it ;) you are speaking non sense, did you really watch the full video or do you need special needs to understand things? lol I'm the girl on the video getting the folded orange/red/white paraglider on the floor. then I get my paraglider backpack and put in the back of my black/green harness. After 4 seconds ( not 5 minutes as you mention) I pass in front of the camera flying. Again specially for you to understand ( the orange/red/white little glider). after that I keep soaring and landing in front of the camera many times. can you understand it now boy? lol Lastly the video have everything to do with this topic as we are talking for 5 pages about soaring and on the video as i hope you can figure it out, I'm soaring. but then if you dont like it, dont watch it ;)Lauren Martins - www.youtube.com/user/gisellemartins20 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DSE 3 #123 January 25, 2012 I guess the timer on YouTube must be broken?Glad I had the cache, since you've now changed up the video. That said, please answer the questions I asked? Answer slowly for this boy from Iowa, OK? Seriously, it's always fun when paraglider pilots show up on the DZ. At least 50% of them proclaim how excellent they are, how much more they know about canopy flight and wingsuiting than any of them. Jurgen was the hottest-shit guy in the world (according to him) just before he flew into the side of the van, and then later hooked it in and broke his wrist. Your "dream" is fascinating. I'd truly like to know more about how you expect to build an air-inflated system without an exoskeleton that would support the aspects I mentioned before. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gisellemartins 0 #124 January 25, 2012 Quote I guess the timer on YouTube must be broken?Glad I had the cache, since you've now changed up the video. That said, please answer the questions I asked? Answer slowly for this boy from Iowa, OK? Seriously, it's always fun when paraglider pilots show up on the DZ. At least 50% of them proclaim how excellent they are, how much more they know about canopy flight and wingsuiting than any of them. Jurgen was the hottest-shit guy in the world (according to him) just before he flew into the side of the van, and then later hooked it in and broke his wrist. Your "dream" is fascinating. I'd truly like to know more about how you expect to build an air-inflated system without an exoskeleton that would support the aspects I mentioned before. Ok boy from Iowa I will speak slowly as you need special treatment Yes some paraglider pilots can be dickheads sometimes, but this type of people exist in every sport/discipline, but generally PG pilots are nice intelligent folks. Now if I'm very honest with you, some of the most amusing, nonsense and weirdest comments I've seen in my life, was on this forum lol nothing personal tho, Love you bird boys =) I'm sure my fascinate dream is your dream too, maybe you didn't figure it out yet ;) Once again and for all boy, I'm not building any wingsuit, we are just talking about the possibilities in the future and what we think will happen, or not happen.Lauren Martins - www.youtube.com/user/gisellemartins20 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
twatterpilot 0 #125 January 26, 2012 I'm gonna hop in on this a little to help clarify some misinformation, and throw a little fuel on the fire. (just cause it's kinda fun) Disclaimer: I have not jumped a wing suit. I do skydive. I have flown all the others listed below, including helicopters, hot air balloons, land and sea planes. Single and multi engine. (I have not flown jets, only turbo-props) Definitions of types of flying craft: Wing suit: Primarily a skydiving craft, currently incapable of self launch or landing. Directional control is maintained with the movement of arms and legs by the pilot. Parachute: Skydiving. Normally incapable of self launch, however, ground launching can be done with a steep enough slope and the right conditions and right canopy. Control is through the manipulation of the risers or steering lines. (Oh yeah, shifting in your harness to turn is not weight shift, you are changing the length of the risers and lines) Para-glider: Soaring sport intended to be ground launched and landed. Control is through the manipulation of the risers or steering lines. Hang Glider: Soaring sport intended to be ground launched or towed, and landed. Pilot is the landing gear. Control is maintained with Pilot weight shift only. No movable control surfaces. Rigid tubular airframe. Glider: Unpowered aircraft intended to be towed aloft by an auto, winch or powered aircraft. Pilot is seated within the aircraft secured with safety belts. Aircraft control is maintained with full movable control surfaces. Aircraft is equipped with landing gear or skid. Generally, un-powered aircraft with glide ratios BELOW 20:1 or so are considered GLIDERS. Sailplane: High aspect ratio wing, soaring aircraft intended to be towed aloft by auto, winch or aircraft. Some sailplanes are equipped with power plants for self launching or sustaining. Aircraft control is maintained with fully moving control surfaces, dive brakes/spoilers, flaps and possibly retractable landing gear. Generally un-powered aircraft with glide ratios exceeding 20:1 are considered sailplanes. Modern sailplanes often have glide ratios that exceed 45:1. Cessna 182 with prop stopped. Oh Shit. OR about 12:1 glide ratio. So, I hope this clears up some questions as to what is what and how they are controlled. OR, I'm just gonna piss people off, which is kinda fun too. LOL (jk) Paragliders are high aspect ratio parachutes. The correlation can be parachutes to gliders, and paragliders to sailplanes. Maybe this will throw a little Jet A on the fire! LOL ;) We have gone from round silk parachutes doing accuracy, to 300+ foot long pond swooping... I have no doubts that wing suits will evolve too. I can envision a carbon fiber tube "spar" with an inner and outer tubes that will allow independent rotation of the higher aspect ratio "wings" that can be unplugged for landing. This would control the roll axis, with the leg web controlling pitch and yaw. While this may not give the dream performance that everyone hopes for...I see 7-10 minute glides from a 13,500 exit....maybe-someday... I also think Yves Rossi will take off and land his rigid wing "suit" within the next couple years. I probably am going to aggravate some folks by saying this... We only achieved powered heavier than air flight in 1903, that is only 109 years ago. When did we start sport skydiving? Look how far we have come in the last 50-60-70 years? The guys that did the FIRST baton pass are in our generation. When the Wright Brothers flew in 1903 at Kill Devil Hills, no one could imagine that we would travel faster than sound 44 years later, and land on the moon 19 years after that. I would be careful doubting the capability and imagination of skydivers today. We are a very diverse group and have an endless pool of resources available to us.Airline Transport Pilot, Multi-Engine Land, DHC-8 Commercial Multi-Engine Sea, Single Engine Land Private Glider Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
