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WickedWingsuits

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Have you actually pulled a cutaway cable on a wing? Even if you "fail to pull the last 2-3", it's not going to be a problem. :S A first experience with one demonstrates as much.



Depending on the wingsuit, Simon may be right that failing to strip the last two inches will not allow the wing to release. I own one of each style. On my S3 (cutaway attaches wing to suit, threads from bottom), every tab must be cleared before the wing releases. On my P2 (cutaway allows arm to leave wing, threads from bottom), for every tab that is cleared, your arm is allowed a bit more motion. So leaving 2-3 tabs engaged is not a problem. There are also multiple other ways to design a cable cutaway and many of them have been done.

However, even on my S3... it is very easy to clear every tab if you pull at the correct angle. I'll re-neg on my previous statement about safety improvements though, and say that a cutaway system which doesn't require a special angle of pull (like on my P2 vs the S3) is probably a significant improvement.
www.WingsuitPhotos.com

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-removing cutaway cables from wingsuits is not a step towards greater safety. No matter how one looks at it, it's a removal of a basic, simple safety feature that has never been documented or suspected of causing incident.

-even partially stripping a cable allows the elbow to bend and freely reach. In my experiences (and those of more than just one or two students), the cable actually falls out with only 2/3 tabs still connected. Easy to demo in the air and on the ground, and has been my personal experience. This is without "sleeve" conversation.

-I submit that a cutaway system is SPECIFICALLY designed to be "fully cutaway." If one can't fully cutaway a cutaway cable, they have no business in a wingsuit, let alone skydiving.

Consider the concept of "my main didn't leave my rig because the cutaway cable wasn't fully stripped. :S Even your skyhook can't save you if you have a hung up riser.

I understand your motivation to champion Tonysuits, and that's what sponsored people are supposed to do. Understandable and expected.
However...

Having hundreds of jumps on all major brands (more suits have cutaways than those that don't), I fully understand and have used the sleeve and cutaway systems both with and without intent. Arguing that the sleeve is an improvement over cutaway systems (that also happen to function like the sleeve) is a silly, mis-guided argument. For how they work on many suits for many jumpers, one might as well say that every wingsuit has a safety sleeve, because they do. Looking at the Xbird failure video, did the sleeve help him? No.


With a cutaway and sleeve-3 options for release.
Without a cutaway and only sleeve, 1.5/2 options for release (assuming the "sleeve" works for everyone and everyone has equal length risers.

Basic math says cutaway with sleeve=33.333333% better. In a challenging situation (that I challenge any skydiver, BASE is different, to say they NEEDED TO SAVE THEIR LIFE) I'll happily take 33% better odds and options. Wouldn't you?

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I'll re-neg on my previous statement about safety improvements though, and say that a cutaway system which doesn't require a special angle of pull (like on my P2 vs the S3) is probably a significant improvement.



I think you mean the early P2Z as the P2 and the later P2Z must be pulled all the way out (and from a particular angle).
"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

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I think you mean the early P2Z as the P2 and the later P2Z must be pulled all the way out (and from a particular angle).



I do indeed have a very early P2Z. And I don't believe I've looked very closely at a newer P2Z. Does the cutaway go back to the old style of wing-body attachment on the newer ones?
www.WingsuitPhotos.com

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I think you mean the early P2Z as the P2 and the later P2Z must be pulled all the way out (and from a particular angle).



I do indeed have a very early P2Z. And I don't believe I've looked very closely at a newer P2Z. Does the cutaway go back to the old style of wing-body attachment on the newer ones?



The newer P2Z has the cut-away along the wing but has the cut-away handle located near the hand instead of near the body.
"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

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The cutaway tab track now follows the zipper, so it's like unzipping. The handle is back-bent at the wrist so it's a straight pull that works at any angle. I've pulled mine with my teeth just to see if I could. The far end of the teflon cable is just at the armpit. The effect is that it is identical to unzipping. The larger suits have a spandex cuff, which was shown for the first time at PIA in Reno. Nowadays, most of the bigger suits sport the spandex wrist/backarm.

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I understand your motivation to champion Tonysuits, and that's what sponsored people are supposed to do. Understandable and expected.



Don't get me wrong here, I wasn't saying the sleeve was the best thing since sliced bread, I was using it as an example of a safety improvement. Moving the cable arm cutaway from the body to the arms so that even a little pull of the cable gives some relief is an equally valid example of a safety improvement.

My point is that to get a cheap suit you have to go used and you have to accept some sacrifices in safety, performance and rigging. The older you go the bigger the gap between now and then. Just like everything else in skydiving equipment. Name me one item in skydiving equipment that was better in the past than it is now? It isn't black and white...some of those variations are worth accepting in favor of simply having a wingsuit...other are worth saving your pennies and getting a new model which will be out of date in a season but still perfectly "suitable".

This is all regardless of brand, everyone has moved forward in general. You are right that I do have a bias...I won't argue that, but it doesn't make me blind or incapable of respecting or being impressed with other designs. It's like being married, you can still look right?
Summer Rental special, 5 weeks for the price of 4! That is $160 a month.

Try before You Buy with Wicked Wingsuits - WingsuitRental.com

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Don't get me wrong here, I wasn't saying the sleeve was the best thing since sliced bread, I was using it as an example of a safety improvement.



I've had an abnormally high number of cutaways in wingsuits (6 in ~1030 jumps). I had a safety sleeved (or whatever it's called) wingsuit on for all of those except the first one. (The first one was a camera/ring sight entanglement, and I wished I had had a safety sleeve on that one.)

Being able to reach up and out of my suit? Very, very helpful. Peace of mind. Good stuff. It gave me much more comfort than I had when I jumped a suit with a threaded cutaway wing.

Would both features be nice? Mayhap. But when we add extra things, we also add extra things that can screw up, right?

I personally think it was an improvement.
Skwrl Productions - Wingsuit Photography

Northeast Bird School - Chief Logistics Guy and Video Dork

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Name me one item in skydiving equipment that was better in the past than it is now?



"The speed at which new people progress in the sport".

Its faster, if not, rushed these days.
When I started wingsuit flying in 2003, it took me a 100 wingsuit jumps to even be allowed to wear a SkyFlyer3. Perhaps over cautious. But a far cry from what I see a lot of beginners fly these days. And it didnt hinder or limit me in any way, it in fact made me try/fly a lot better.

Some newers suits have an awesome performance range. In everyday skydiving, its though rare to come across any formation that demands more than the performance of 'old' suits.
I have around 1500 wingsuit jumps, and still fly what most would concider a beginner suit. Granted, I sometimes fly bigger. But thats by choice, not because I need it. And also not because somebody told me I needed it. Its more than capable of everything I need to do with it. And I do a lot. I personaly would love to see people advocate skills over upsizing. Similar, be it reversed, to downsizing and swooping (s)kills in canopy flying.

Pricing on 2nd hand suits 20% from new price? Ive seen plenty of good deals varying from 250 to 500 Euros. The FlyLikeBrick website currently has a nice Phantom2 listed for 400,- and a SM1 for roughly the same in the 2nd hand section. Sellers may even negotiate price and get it cheaper. Regardless, far from the 850 to 900 Euros a full option new suit costs (or the 20% less you mention).

A lot of the things noted as 'improvemens' (zipper rigging) have been around from the start (S-Fly had zippers in 2001 already, if not before that even). Cable rigging, though it takes a few minutes, is STILL the best and easiest way to get a wingsuit fully fit/attached to a rig with perfect fit/spacing for the handles. In todays market, people want something they can put on quicker. And it IS easier in use. But the 'old'system is far from worse or less safe. The sleeve system (on any brand, but for the sake of brand, lets stick to the Venom) is very dependent of fit and clothing worn underneath in terms of function. Unlike a cutaway system, which always functions regardless of fit or layers worn.

I fully applaud you for your company and provided service. And will and have gladly recommended you to people looking to try a certain suit or model to try. But I personaly don't like the stance where its made to look like intermediate wingsuit models are only a step up to what everyone really wants to/should fly. Like there is a 100% need to 'upgrade' to bigger. There simply isnt.

To counter your question: Name me one item in skydiving equipment that supposedly functions less well and less safe, because there is newer gear on the market?
I can see when comparing a canopy from today to one from 15 or 20 years ago. But the 'oldest' equipment one can buy 2nd hand in wingsuit flying, is still newer than the canopy most skydivers had their first rig.

If I may comment on some of the statements on your website frontpage

- Gets you on a flock without having to save up $1000 first.
"gets you a suit to fly while you work your way up to flocking skills"
- If you fly like a brick you can give it up already.
"Weirdly constructed SEO line"
- That used suit you bought on dropzone.com is tooadvanced for you and it doesn’t fit anyway.
"make sure you get proper advice on which suit you can and should fly before buying OR renting"
- You can’t figure out the lace up system on the suit yourbuddy loaned you.
"If you have such dumb-ass buddies, go find someone that can properly instruct you on the gear that can potentialy kill you"
- All the kids are doing it.
"Don't be a mindless sheep following the cool crowd, they may have 1000 jumps. You probably don't....take it easy.."
JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

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Name me one item in skydiving equipment that was better in the past than it is now?



"The speed at which new people progress in the sport".



If you suck at RW, get some coaching
If you suck at VRW, get some coaching.
If you suck at CRW, get some coaching.
If you suck at Accuracy, get some coaching.
If you suck at Swooping, upsize and get some coaching.

If you suckat Wingsuiting, get a bigger suit.



Hey JD, if you've been jumping the same risers as the ones on the canopy I'm shipping back out east tomorrow, that's why you've had the cutaways. Jesus, get some risers that aren't worn to shit and some TruLoks that are properly fitted. :P New risers-$100.00. That's two repacks right there.


I'm not saying that "The Sleeve" sucks. But removing cutaway cables is not a step forward. :S It's a step towards efficiency and convenience over safety.

Cutaway cables function 99.9% of the time. Cutaway cables work properly regardless of sweat, clothing, wrist/forearm size. "The Sleeve" doesn't.

To suggest that adding a cable system is "adding an extra thing"... and inferring it might be dangerous?? C'mon. That's just plain silly, and marketing FUD.

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There is so much hate for "big suits"....but what is a big suit? Where is this line drawn between a "requires great skill" and a "no skill needed" suit?

Interesting, 70% of our fleet are I Bird\Intro and T Birds....S Birds make up 8% and that is the biggest suit we fly. That tells me that most people really do want to invest time in "smaller" suits. I think there are just a few bad examples out there that stick out.
Summer Rental special, 5 weeks for the price of 4! That is $160 a month.

Try before You Buy with Wicked Wingsuits - WingsuitRental.com

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There is so much hate for "big suits"....but what is a big suit? Where is this line drawn between a "requires great skill" and a "no skill needed" suit?

Interesting, 70% of our fleet are I Bird\Intro and T Birds....S Birds make up 8% and that is the biggest suit we fly. That tells me that most people really do want to invest time in "smaller" suits. I think there are just a few bad examples out there that stick out.



I would consider the Prodigy, Phantom, Intro, and T-Bird to be small suits. Everything else ... is not small. There is no such thing as a "no skill needed" suit.
"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

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If I may comment on some of the statements on your website frontpage

- Gets you on a flock without having to save up $1000 first.
"gets you a suit to fly while you work your way up to flocking skills"
- If you fly like a brick you can give it up already.
"Weirdly constructed SEO line"
- That used suit you bought on dropzone.com is tooadvanced for you and it doesn’t fit anyway.
"make sure you get proper advice on which suit you can and should fly before buying OR renting"
- You can’t figure out the lace up system on the suit yourbuddy loaned you.
"If you have such dumb-ass buddies, go find someone that can properly instruct you on the gear that can potentialy kill you"
- All the kids are doing it.
"Don't be a mindless sheep following the cool crowd, they may have 1000 jumps. You probably don't....take it easy.."




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late_Show_Top_Ten_List

My writers aren't as good as Letterman's but the concept is the same.
Summer Rental special, 5 weeks for the price of 4! That is $160 a month.

Try before You Buy with Wicked Wingsuits - WingsuitRental.com

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Nah. My only cutaway with the Storm was when I was at the Utah boogie (Two years ago? Three?). The remaining five were on a Sabre2.
Skwrl Productions - Wingsuit Photography

Northeast Bird School - Chief Logistics Guy and Video Dork

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I'm not saying that "The Sleeve" sucks. But removing cutaway cables is not a step forward. Crazy It's a step towards efficiency and convenience over safety.


"The Sleeve" is the way forward. I got 200+ jumps on Stealth. I can't recall how many times I have used the wing cut-away, because I got the think piece of ZP in the zipper. There were some rare cases when I got urgent issues with my canopy.

I'm lot happier jumping a suit with "The Sleeve". No little piece of ZP to catch and I can access my risers without stressing my suit If I have an urgent need for risers.

I miss the wing cut-away as much I miss it for putting the suit on the rig with tabs and the cable....

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Nah. My only cutaway with the Storm was when I was at the Utah boogie (Two years ago? Three?). The remaining five were on a Sabre2.



What happened that you had to chop the Storm?

There was a time when any canopy could have a malfunction. Is that time over?:P


Could just be sloppiness, could be a number of things I was just curious as boogies usually have good stories.

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The piece of ZP was only present on some older suits (and can be cut), and isnt part of the cutaway. All in all, using the cutaway alot shows its a working system you trusted.

No reason it cant be added to any sleeve escape system. Especialy when hearing most active users only get 50/50 or less function and reach out of it.
JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

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Nah. My only cutaway with the Storm was when I was at the Utah boogie (Two years ago? Three?). The remaining five were on a Sabre2.



What happened that you had to chop the Storm?



Not a particularly interesting story.

Crappy body position on deployment. I was trying to film Zach S. doing something (I forget what). (Zach tends to do something in the air a lot; it often makes for good footage.)

So, I flipped over on my back to film him, was wibbly-wobbly, flipped back when I heard my audible go off, and pitched a little faster than I should have. I usually give myself a moment or two to "bleed off" wobble that might cause an unstable deployment.

Spiraling line twists followed; footage showed right riser was far higher than left. Three revolutions in I realized it wasn't going to get better. Skyhook (love it) chop. Boring reserve ride. Repacked in a jif by the guy who owns Skydive Utah (Thanks, Guy Whose Name I Can't Remember!). [Edited to add name I just remembered: Jack! Thanks, Jack!]

In short, it doesn't inform us of anything about the Storm - it would have happened with any canopy.
Skwrl Productions - Wingsuit Photography

Northeast Bird School - Chief Logistics Guy and Video Dork

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Nah. My only cutaway with the Storm was when I was at the Utah boogie (Two years ago? Three?). The remaining five were on a Sabre2.



Different set of risers? The risers I'm lookin at right now...I wouldn't jump em', but I'm funny like that. These look pretty hammered.:D

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Nah. My only cutaway with the Storm was when I was at the Utah boogie (Two years ago? Three?). The remaining five were on a Sabre2.



Different set of risers? The risers I'm lookin at right now...I wouldn't jump em', but I'm funny like that. These look pretty hammered.:D


Same set of risers (i.e., risers were not replaced or changed in the last two years).

And yes, I get it - it needs new risers. I had a complete overhaul scheduled for that rig at the end of the season (i.e., now). The only reason it was still being jumped at all was that our mutual friend wanted to borrow a rig, and my "good" rig was already in pieces with my rigger awaiting a repack. So she got the old rig. Was that or nothing.

In addition to new risers, the canopy needs a new line set. For what that's worth, the rig needs a new cutaway handle (not just because the one on it was dropped in the cutaway; the one that was there had too short of a cable on the reserve side). It also needs a UPT-mandated mod to the Skyhook (I still have the old stitching). It also needs some of the Velcro repaired, the AAD needs to be serviced, etc.

In short, yeah, I know. Never had a problem with it before, but replacement and repair was planned.
Skwrl Productions - Wingsuit Photography

Northeast Bird School - Chief Logistics Guy and Video Dork

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The piece of ZP was only present on some older suits (and can be cut), and isnt part of the cutaway. All in all, using the cutaway alot shows its a working system you trusted.



It was not part of the solution, but source of most trouble I had.
It was the source of zipper jam...:S

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Pricing on 2nd hand suits 20% from new price? Ive seen plenty of good deals varying from 250 to 500 Euros. The FlyLikeBrick website currently has a nice Phantom2 listed for 400,- and a SM1 for roughly the same in the 2nd hand section. Sellers may even negotiate price and get it cheaper.

Although this is a nice alternative, it only allows for relatively small growth. Renting flying costumes aka wingsuits, gives a lot of people the chance to fly suits, they otherwise couldn't afford or properly fit into. Wicked has a fleet of wings, and has gotten more people wingsuiting in the midwest, than ever before. I've gotten to fly with a lot of people in rentals, that were happy just to be able to get their flock on. Even if they're not going to order a suit, they can still dedicate a solid month to gain skill and experience... which is the name of the game.

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