(expanded) Skills List

[kallend 1,621]

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Its more a drop through the burble with a half-assed tuck/backloop....

That too. Definitely not a "loop" as the rest of the aviation world defines it.

Do you understand context? I ask because we're not talking about aviation, we're talking about skydiving ... and

Gee, must be why we are regulated in the USA by the Federal AVIATION Administration.

However, if you'd prefer "Aeronautic", then we can still have the same definitions as the rest of aeronautics, and our US national organization belongs to the NAA, and the NAA is a member of the FAI.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 1,621]

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Similarly, none of us do barrel rolls, we do aileron rolls.

Notwithstanding what Slippy, Falco or Peppy have to say on the matter.

Without ailerons, I'd suggest "axial rolls".

A fair point that we don't have ailerons. DSE and Kallend agree on something on dz.com. Surely, the apocalypse is upon us.

But is "axial" roll the right term? There are at least three axes - a yaw (vertical) axis, a pitch (lateral) axis, and a roll (longitudinal) axis.

Yes it is, because it is a rotation about the longitudinal (roll) axis.

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EDITED: TO ADD PREVIOUSLY REFERENCED BOOBIES. BECAUSE EVERYONE LOVES BOOBIES.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[mccordia 73]

For the purpose of clarity, we will stick with normal terms such as barrelroll, frontloop and backloop for this document.

Outside of talking about it, I highly recommend anyone to go outside, fly a wingsuit, and try all the moves described. For sure it has made more than one person a better flyer...

JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

[piisfish 135]

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Are they "barrelon roils?"

that sounds very drunk. I like

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[Skwrl 56]

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I despise the sophisticated nomenclature used by brobdingnagian cunning linguists morphologically complex words to describe really simple, everyday things. All this disambiguation is one huge pandiculation, positively antedeluvian, and moreover, superannuated.

My head hurts now.

Skwrl: Re: startfox, do a barrel roll!

I'm glad SOMEONE got the Starfox reference (Slippy, Falco, and Peppy) I made. (Although each is a better wingman than some skydivers I know...)

Skwrl Productions - Wingsuit Photography

Northeast Bird School - Chief Logistics Guy and Video Dork

[Butters 0]

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Its more a drop through the burble with a half-assed tuck/backloop....

That too. Definitely not a "loop" as the rest of the aviation world defines it.

Do you understand context? I ask because we're not talking about aviation, we're talking about skydiving ... and

Gee, must be why we are regulated in the USA by the Federal AVIATION Administration.

However, if you'd prefer "Aeronautic", then we can still have the same definitions as the rest of aeronautics, and our US national organization belongs to the NAA, and the NAA is a member of the FAI.

Does backloop have a dictionary definition? No. Thus it's definition is based on common usage in a given context. Regardless, you still haven't answered either of my questions. Can you backfly in a wingsuit? Can you do a backloop (or, as you prefer, a backflip) in a wingsuit? If you can't, it's not to late to get coaching ...

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[Skwrl 56]

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Its more a drop through the burble with a half-assed tuck/backloop....

That too. Definitely not a "loop" as the rest of the aviation world defines it.

Do you understand context? I ask because we're not talking about aviation, we're talking about skydiving ... and

Gee, must be why we are regulated in the USA by the Federal AVIATION Administration.

However, if you'd prefer "Aeronautic", then we can still have the same definitions as the rest of aeronautics, and our US national organization belongs to the NAA, and the NAA is a member of the FAI.

Does backloop have a dictionary definition? No. Thus it's definition is based on common usage in a given a context. Regardless, you still haven't answered either of my questions. Can you backfly in a wingsuit? Can you do a backloop (or, as you prefer, a backflip) in a wingsuit? If you can't, it's not to late to get coaching ...

I'm curious - why do you have such a hard on for Kallend, Butters? (And vice versa, Kallend?)

I mean, it's like clockwork - if I see a post by Kallend, I expect within 45 minutes to see a post by Butters pissing on it. And, of course, the inverse (converse? I can never remember which one is which) is true for the Professor...

I've met both of you and - in person - you both seemed like personable, decent guys. The vitriol (I started using a thesaurus after Spot's Great Paragraph of Big Words) is amazing and persistent... (What? Don't like the word vitriol? It's a perfectly cromulent word...) If all I had to go with was your on line interactions with each other, I'd assume you were both obnoxious pricks. But I don't think that's the case with respect to either of you from my in person interactions. Help a dumb skwrl understand...

Did you flunk some class Kallend taught, Butters? Kallend, did Butters give you a crappy review on ratemyprof.com? What's the deal?

Maybe I just don't care enough, but to me, wingsuiting is so much more fun when we're spending our day bitching at each other... (Or maybe that's just dz.com. Shrug.)

For what it's worth, I'm genuinely curious and not trolling.

Skwrl Productions - Wingsuit Photography

Northeast Bird School - Chief Logistics Guy and Video Dork

[Birdman_Mike 0]

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Thanks for sharing this, Jarno. Very comprehensive and structured approach to wing suit progression. I miss one thing though:

Level F:
- doing all of the above & looking super cool in the video
- doing wingsuit rodeos with the hottest chickz on the DZ & (of course!) looking super cool in the video
- doing (insert anything else) & looking super cool in the video

Jokes aside, really good job!

I specialize in Level F training. I'll also add surfing massive puffies to this category

-Purple Mike

[lonedfx 0]

Nicely done, I would encourage every student to read this list and organize his progression on something along those lines, it's also a pretty good way for someone to self-evaluate.

One thing though, and I'm not sure where exactly it would fit into your structured progression, but I didn't see anything about abilities to fly at deep angles for prolonged amounts of time, especially being able to do so relative to other wingsuits. Though that's not the kind of dives we usually think about when we think of wingsuits, these are flown all the time and they're great fun, but they can be especially dangerous when one who doesn't have the skills joins in.

Also, and though I'm not one to encourage it, pilots often offer to fly close to wingsuiters, and that often requires the wingsuit to be "near his VNE", which can result in overreactive unstable flight with a plane in proximity. Ugh.

I think an item or two in the document somwhere about stable high speed flying and very steep flight angles (think almost head down) would make it clear that those also are skills, and that even when one has freefly experience, doing these with a wingsuit is going to bring a whole new dimension to it.

Similarly, the temptation to flyby canopies is great for many wingsuiters, who don't really know if they have the skills the first time they'll try it. And they will, no matter how much we try to discourage them. And why shouldn't they, they see some of us do it... I'm of the opinion that it's better to recognize that people will do it, and give them an opportunity to realize that they're not ready yet, no matter how much tandem pilots ask them for it.

And while I'm at it, the same thing is true of rodeos, not even mentionning the skydiving experience required of the passenger (i don't think that physical contact with the hardware is benign), the pilot gets to fly like he's driving a truck on the ice, always correcting one way or another, it's not that hard, but it sometimes requires some pretty creative flying. Bring a second rodeo in the jump, one or more videomen, and you have a whole can of worms to deal with at break time.

Which brings me to the ability to organize flocking, and the subtleties that arise when organizing sizable formations. I suspect it's a skill that can only be gleaned from direct experience with other load organizers and takes a lot of time, and here again, realizing that you don't have the skill or knowledge to make it safe for everybody else in the dive could only be a good thing.

You mention navigation, but in addition to being able to maintain headings, one of the most useful skill I find that I can teach my students on this subject is the ability to correct for non-straight jump runs (ie, the pilot turned during the last part of the jump run). When flying standard U patterns, and if the wingsuiter has only taken a ground reference at the door, there is a very high risk of flying back toward open canopies. This is not a flying skill, but a very important saftey one: awareness of the airspace. This may be covered under the "Demonstrate proper communication with the pilot" item, but not that many pilots realize this is actually a problem for us, so I try to get students to be very aware of what's going on while other people jump out before they do.

Still on the topic of navigation, cloudsurfing feels so good that we're often tempted to go chase a cloud that's not quite within our reentry cone. The ability to know the limits of such detours is important, as off-zone landings are never garanteed to be safe.

One last thing, the ability to perform stable exits at "zero speed", such as from an ultralight or a baloon. Not talking about base jumping here, but so many of us also have this activity in mind that it could only help to have the skill recognized in there.

I realize that the document can never be complete, there's just too many fun things one can do with a wingsuit, but as it is, it seems a little biased toward progressing in flock flying and aerobatics. That's probably the biggest part of wingsuiting in the skydiving environment today, but it's not the whole story. Some of the other fun things also require specific skills that can be trained for.

In any case, good stuff, thanks for sharing it.
Francis.

[mccordia 73]

Thanks, thats feedback that actually works..

This wasnt ment as the definitive 'Do this, and you're a god in the skies' and its fully our intention to include feedback in a future version (put out a version 1.2 or 2.0 when we have enough additions).

prolonger diving
for sure a good addition ill take into account on the next update!

fly by
The fact that people will 'do it anyways' is not a good incentive for me to include this in training. If someone has the skills, in person, ill gladly assist him/her in being target (seperate at 6 or 7k, I dive down and deploy at 5k, so they can set up a safe distance flyby).
But I dont think we should include hints and tips on an 'internet instruction' pdf for stuff that should be evaluated on a case by case basis. As well as believing that sort of stuff belongs in the 'stunt' catagory. And not standard skills/practice.

Rodeos
To me these are a carnaval ride. A fun look into wingsuit flying, perhaps nice for a video instruction thing. But not part of what Id want to see as basics on a person.

Navigation
I think (similar to canopy naviation) the simple 'learn to navigate' encompasses any type of patern. Your exit point is point A, and your deployment spot is point B. Finding a nice safe line or curve towards that point shouldnt be that difficult (and for the biggest part, already included in an FFC)

A lot of the other stuff (cloud surfing, balloon exits, etc) also (to me) falls under the 'specialty' catagory. Its not needed for basic training, and flocking skills. For sure its fun, and more than worth its own seperate training. But not needed in this document which we provide for student/flocking use.

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it seems a little biased toward progressing in flock flying and aerobatics.

Seeing the avg. skill level on some of the 'performance only' skydivers and basejumpers I see, they could use some of that as well (tongue in cheeck, before certain people get their panties in a twist again'

JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

[The111 0]

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I specialize in Level F training. I'll also add surfing massive puffies to this category

Please, coach me on how to look super cool in videos.

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[jdatc 0]

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Seeing the avg. skill level on some of the 'performance only' skydivers and basejumpers I see, they could use some of that as well (tongue in cheeck, before certain people get their panties in a twist again'

God I know! Look at these people! They suck! Most of them probably couldn't get past Level B!

Scotty-Bob

Justin

Matt


(tongue in cheeck, before certain people get their panties in a twist again!!!)

_justin

[mccordia 73]

Seeing how precise these people you mention fly in their base videos, as well as seeing them do a lot of acrobatic stuff in their videos, you clearly have a different view of who 'some' is, and rate your friends'skill levels lower than I do

JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

[virgin-burner 1]

out of all the video's you've linked, i think matt's is the most entertaining..

either you love base, or you think it's friggin nuts - but still love it!

dont think i've seen that one, pretty-fucking-cool!

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[lonedfx 0]

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Thanks, thats feedback that actually works..

No problem, I realize most of it is a bit on the fun & stunt side and doesn't really have its place within a standard progression.

On the other hand, though most people realize they cannot backfly into a slot, the skills needed for some of those dives isn't always apparent, so personally, I make a point to talk about them in my briefings and mention a few well known horror stories. I don't know that it does anything though...

I guess flybys and flying with the plane are a bit like swooping is. You just tell students not to do it. Until recently, it was hard to find someone who would take on the responsibility to actively teach you how to swoop, and many people learned, and still do learn more or less alone, as they feel ready, gleaning info here and there... the results have not always been so good.

But yes, that's not what your pdf is about :)

Glad that you'll be adding something about prolonged dives. I was the guy without the necessary skills the first time I joined one of these... I knew enough to leave the jump before I became really dangerous, but that was definitely a lesson in knowing my own skills, or lack thereof.