Glide Ratios?

[nickfrey 0]

NOthing close to 3:1? I'd be willing to bet a couple suits can sustain over that. Hell I can sustain 2.5 to 2.7 in a Ghost, and I suck!!!


Also I think the ridge soaring idea is going to be the way the first true wingsuit landing is done, and it's already possible under the right conditions with today's gear and a MASSIVE set of balls. But you arent gonna see me trying it.

[sdctlc 0]

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NOthing close to 3:1? I'd be willing to bet a couple suits can sustain over that.

Well, lots of claims of high GR's that are taken in a short window of measurement, but in measured events for skydiving taken from PPC, here are the standards that have been set over a 1,000 meter vertical competition window.

http://www.paralog.net/ppc/showdistancecomp.php

Personally I would like to see a "iron man" version of this going through a competition window of 2.5K (8202 feet) to 3K (9842 feet) to add to the endurance factor. Exit at 14,000 feet and enter the window at 13,000 to 13,500 feet depending on the window for the competition. This takes away a "dive advantage" similar to what was done at the recent Skydive Elsinore event. Puts a premium on performance over an entire flight, no dives just sustained flight.

Scott C.

"He who Hesitates Shall Inherit the Earth!"

[DSE 3]

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Personally I would like to see a "iron man" version of this going through a competition window of 2.5K (8202 feet) to 3K (9842 feet) to add to the endurance factor. Exit at 14,000 feet and enter the window at 13,000 to 13,500 feet depending on the window for the competition. This takes away a "dive advantage" similar to what was done at the recent Skydive Elsinore event. Puts a premium on performance over an entire flight, no dives just sustained flight.

Scott C.

You're the second or third person to bring this up, and it has been discussed as being part of the Performance comp at the April event (the day before the Artistic competition). Get out higher, measure the sustained rate

I agree, get out, get flying within a few hundred feet, and see what can be sustained.
This is the reason we put exit altitude at 11K; to reduce the advantage of a 2K dive. Tweaked Lurch a bit, but it seems to be more fair, and definitely more of a competitive approach.

[Butters 0]

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ALL the sources of extra drag need to be addressed. I don't think we are anywhere near optimized in that area yet.

Agree. There are plenty of sources of drag that could be eliminated or minimized: helmets, cameras, mudflap mounted altimeters, etc...

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[piisfish 135]

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There are plenty of sources of drag that could be eliminated or minimized: helmets, cameras, mudflap mounted altimeters, etc...

chest strap, 5 go-pro's , bent knees

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[Butters 0]

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There are plenty of sources of drag that could be eliminated or minimized: helmets, cameras, mudflap mounted altimeters, etc...

chest strap, 5 go-pro's , bent knees

Yes, yes, and yes.

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[kallend 1,621]

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ALL the sources of extra drag need to be addressed. I don't think we are anywhere near optimized in that area yet.

Agree. .

Hell just froze over.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 1,621]

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NOthing close to 3:1? I'd be willing to bet a couple suits can sustain over that. Hell I can sustain 2.5 to 2.7 in a Ghost, and I suck!!!

I didn't write that. Kris did.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Butters 0]

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ALL the sources of extra drag need to be addressed. I don't think we are anywhere near optimized in that area yet.

Agree. .

Hell just froze over.

Why, this isn't the first time I've agreed with you. Hell will freeze over when I post something and you make a post agreeing with it ...

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[kallend 1,621]

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NOthing close to 3:1? I'd be willing to bet a couple suits can sustain over that.

Well, lots of claims of high GR's that are taken in a short window of measurement, but in measured events for skydiving taken from PPC, here are the standards that have been set over a 1,000 meter vertical competition window.

http://www.paralog.net/ppc/showdistancecomp.php

Personally I would like to see a "iron man" version of this going through a competition window of 2.5K (8202 feet) to 3K (9842 feet) to add to the endurance factor. Exit at 14,000 feet and enter the window at 13,000 to 13,500 feet depending on the window for the competition. This takes away a "dive advantage" similar to what was done at the recent Skydive Elsinore event. Puts a premium on performance over an entire flight, no dives just sustained flight.

Scott C.

The Paralog rules call for a crosswind flight. Assuming this was the case in these events, it looks like a bunch of people are over 3:1 without wind assist, and a couple are getting close to 4:1

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[DSE 3]

what the paralog rules call for, what safety allows for, and what is practical are not always the same thing. The way that at least a couple of these have been run is one downwind run, one upwind run.
At at least one comp, I'm told there were 40-50mph tailwinds at altitude.

[lurch 0]

Meh, definitely not a set of rules I prefer, but what the hell, didn't stop me gettin' in the ring now and sluggin' it out with the rest of em, did it?
I figure the point is to -compete-. Debates about the fairness of the ruleset in play are another matter. I figure I can sit snivelling on the sidelines whining about fair and unfair, or I can get off my ass and get in the ring. I recently had somebody all up in my face like "They fucked you at Elsinore" and I'm thinking, "What, am I supposed to be afraid to compete without an overwhelming advantage? I did ok in that fight, weak suit, weighted rules and all... where were you? On the sidelines throwin' peanuts?"

I'll throw in another vote for the Iron Man comp myself,

We talking distance, time, or both?

A couple thoughts:
I think if you're going to set it like Elsinore from 11k with no dive then there ought to BE a Time category as well, just to balance out the weighting. I think cutting it back to only 1000 feet setup time eliminates too much acceleration time and perhaps weights it too much in favor of the heavier birds. Pound for pound, assuming the exact same suit and technique, a heavier bird will be going faster at the gate. A 220 lb bird's Teminal after 1k is going to stomp all over a 130 lb bird's best possible terminal. The lighter bird's only prayer is IF his technique is superior enough over the heavy bird and the heavy bird's technique is sloppy with a lot of drag. It doesn't eliminate the dive, it just gives a very heavy advantage to whoever can accelerate the most in that 1000 foot dive.

As a light bird I found that in essence it came down to whether or not I could change direction and conserve energy better than the heavy guys arriving at Gate Planeout with more energy to spare. They could afford to be sloppy where I could not. I couldn't count on my own skills -winning-, I had to count on the heavier guys being sloppy enough and wasting enough of their energy advantage to -lose.-

Other thought: I'm not so sure eliminating the 3000 foot dive really does anything -for- fairness regarding skills or the purity of the actual competition, either. I found the experience of competing in Gransee with the 3000 foot dive to be a good bit more "rich" of an experience technically, because I feel it required -more- skill, careful attack planning, and more skill to implement that attack plan to be competitive.

As a technical pilot I found Gransee to be far more demanding and sophisticated in its requirements. Elsinore was too simplified and brutal by comparison. Get out, try to take best advantage of that all-too-short first few seconds and Hit It.

Gransee, you really had to PLAN. It tested not just the skills of the window, but the skills in setting up and USING that window. Screw up the setup or the timing and you're toast for the round before you even hit the window.

I did ok in Gransee, at least in the global stats if not in event standing, and I had to spin my skills out to the utmost and -really- think through the exact timing and technique to do it. Especially with that weak-ass S-Bird. Facing a bunch of X2's and Apaches packing that relatively puny weapon was intimidating to say the least. But I LIKE a good fight.

Elsinore's rules this time eliminated almost all of that art. I was disappointed because there were a bunch of skills I had to use at Gransee that I did not get a chance to improve on at Elsinore since they weren't needed. There was just no time to fine tune or refine each attack and all the fun of dialing in a refined dive-planeout attack was left out. Gransee was all about how good you are at building up a kinetic charge with ample room to do it, then using that charge efficiently and with exquisite timing. People who failed to do so, burned off their energy in ragged superslow spikes, then ran out of gas and sagged out in 50 seconds.

I -will- say Elsinore was "more fair" for the less technical pilots or those new to competing who don't even KNOW all that crap yet... and since the purpose was to get competition off the ground in the U.S., it probably makes more sense to have done it the way it was done. More people had a better shot at success this way and it made for a more level playing field, people who don't know that stuff still had a prayer against those who did. Make it too elite and nobody'll want to play.

Last thought: Has anyone given serious consideration to breaking it down into weight classes and suit classes? Beyond the simple Intermediate/Open divisions? We're still going to see wild variation until we do. I'd like to see a set of truly even fights. Say a 3 suit and 3 weight breakdown, so its all-lights in X's, 120-150 lb range only, or another with all big 190-220 lb guys in Phantoms.
-B

Live and learn... or die, and teach by example.

[Butters 0]

Good discussion points though out post.

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Last thought: Has anyone given serious consideration to breaking it down into weight classes and suit classes? Beyond the simple Intermediate/Open divisions? We're still going to see wild variation until we do. I'd like to see a set of truly even fights. Say a 3 suit and 3 weight breakdown, so its all-lights in X's, 120-150 lb range only, or another with all big 190-220 lb guys in Phantoms.
-B

Don't forget height.

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[kallend 1,621]

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Good discussion points though out post.

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Last thought: Has anyone given serious consideration to breaking it down into weight classes and suit classes? Beyond the simple Intermediate/Open divisions? We're still going to see wild variation until we do. I'd like to see a set of truly even fights. Say a 3 suit and 3 weight breakdown, so its all-lights in X's, 120-150 lb range only, or another with all big 190-220 lb guys in Phantoms.
-B

Don't forget height.

And BMI

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Butters 0]

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Good discussion points though out post.

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Last thought: Has anyone given serious consideration to breaking it down into weight classes and suit classes? Beyond the simple Intermediate/Open divisions? We're still going to see wild variation until we do. I'd like to see a set of truly even fights. Say a 3 suit and 3 weight breakdown, so its all-lights in X's, 120-150 lb range only, or another with all big 190-220 lb guys in Phantoms.
-B

Don't forget height.

And BMI

Distance: Height and Suit

Time: Weight to Height Ratio and Suit

Speed: Weight and Suit

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[Trae 1]

In Reply to "really?- seems the trick is doing that with a less than rigid design

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


If it were easy, someone would have done it already.
..........................................

I wish some-one would its driving me kerazee

My Exo-suit design is alive and well on life support.

I'm glad my calculations are on par with Kallend's.
At 20sq/ft 200lb the achievable landing speed drops into the mid 60's .
With good high lift devices I'm expecting the landing speed to drop to around 60mph or even lower.

If this was some-ones job, rather than my hobby , this thing would already be in the sky.

[bertusgeert 1]

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Also I think the ridge soaring idea is going to be the way the first true wingsuit landing is done, and it's already possible under the right conditions with today's gear and a MASSIVE set of balls. But you arent gonna see me trying it.

What is the comparable size of a wingsuit vs. a canopy? What canopy sizes are they having the jump to keep up with wingsuits in formo flights?

here's tiny speedglider...soaring. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=izdlwUkOmAE

---------------------------------------------
As jy dom is moet jy bloei!

[roostnureye 2]

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Meh, definitely not a set of rules I prefer, but what the hell, didn't stop me gettin' in the ring now and sluggin' it out with the rest of em, did it?
I figure the point is to -compete-. Debates about the fairness of the ruleset in play are another matter. I figure I can sit snivelling on the sidelines whining about fair and unfair, or I can get off my ass and get in the ring. I recently had somebody all up in my face like "They fucked you at Elsinore" and I'm thinking, "What, am I supposed to be afraid to compete without an overwhelming advantage? I did ok in that fight, weak suit, weighted rules and all... where were you? On the sidelines throwin' peanuts?"

I'll throw in another vote for the Iron Man comp myself,

We talking distance, time, or both?

A couple thoughts:
I think if you're going to set it like Elsinore from 11k with no dive then there ought to BE a Time category as well, just to balance out the weighting. I think cutting it back to only 1000 feet setup time eliminates too much acceleration time and perhaps weights it too much in favor of the heavier birds. Pound for pound, assuming the exact same suit and technique, a heavier bird will be going faster at the gate. A 220 lb bird's Teminal after 1k is going to stomp all over a 130 lb bird's best possible terminal. The lighter bird's only prayer is IF his technique is superior enough over the heavy bird and the heavy bird's technique is sloppy with a lot of drag. It doesn't eliminate the dive, it just gives a very heavy advantage to whoever can accelerate the most in that 1000 foot dive.

As a light bird I found that in essence it came down to whether or not I could change direction and conserve energy better than the heavy guys arriving at Gate Planeout with more energy to spare. They could afford to be sloppy where I could not. I couldn't count on my own skills -winning-, I had to count on the heavier guys being sloppy enough and wasting enough of their energy advantage to -lose.-

Other thought: I'm not so sure eliminating the 3000 foot dive really does anything -for- fairness regarding skills or the purity of the actual competition, either. I found the experience of competing in Gransee with the 3000 foot dive to be a good bit more "rich" of an experience technically, because I feel it required -more- skill, careful attack planning, and more skill to implement that attack plan to be competitive.

As a technical pilot I found Gransee to be far more demanding and sophisticated in its requirements. Elsinore was too simplified and brutal by comparison. Get out, try to take best advantage of that all-too-short first few seconds and Hit It.

Gransee, you really had to PLAN. It tested not just the skills of the window, but the skills in setting up and USING that window. Screw up the setup or the timing and you're toast for the round before you even hit the window.

I did ok in Gransee, at least in the global stats if not in event standing, and I had to spin my skills out to the utmost and -really- think through the exact timing and technique to do it. Especially with that weak-ass S-Bird. Facing a bunch of X2's and Apaches packing that relatively puny weapon was intimidating to say the least. But I LIKE a good fight.

Elsinore's rules this time eliminated almost all of that art. I was disappointed because there were a bunch of skills I had to use at Gransee that I did not get a chance to improve on at Elsinore since they weren't needed. There was just no time to fine tune or refine each attack and all the fun of dialing in a refined dive-planeout attack was left out. Gransee was all about how good you are at building up a kinetic charge with ample room to do it, then using that charge efficiently and with exquisite timing. People who failed to do so, burned off their energy in ragged superslow spikes, then ran out of gas and sagged out in 50 seconds.

I -will- say Elsinore was "more fair" for the less technical pilots or those new to competing who don't even KNOW all that crap yet... and since the purpose was to get competition off the ground in the U.S., it probably makes more sense to have done it the way it was done. More people had a better shot at success this way and it made for a more level playing field, people who don't know that stuff still had a prayer against those who did. Make it too elite and nobody'll want to play.

Last thought: Has anyone given serious consideration to breaking it down into weight classes and suit classes? Beyond the simple Intermediate/Open divisions? We're still going to see wild variation until we do. I'd like to see a set of truly even fights. Say a 3 suit and 3 weight breakdown, so its all-lights in X's, 120-150 lb range only, or another with all big 190-220 lb guys in Phantoms.
-B

lurch, im really liking your idea on this, what about wingloading on the wingsuit?

i know that a 5' guy and a 6' guy in a p2 should have about the same amount of fabric in comparison to their bodies.

but if the 5' guy is 200lbs and the 6' guy is 150lbs then i see a definate advantage there. depending on the discipline.

im just trying to figure out how we could get categories for: size of flier, weight of flier, and size of wingsuit all together where it will work and level the playing field.

does pilot height really make a difference if the suits are the same make and the pilots are loading them the same?

Flock University FWC / ZFlock
B.A.S.E. 1580
Aussie BASE 121

[nickfrey 0]

Sounds like everyone should just fly the right tool for the job. There are no concessions made for body type or size in most other sports. The world base race sure doesn't. Compete where your suit/body type would be most successful. At 5'3" and 150 pounds I'm not gonna make a run for time in window, but i sure as hell would go after the speed comp.

Unless you had 100 fliers show up you'd end up dividing into groups of two or three competitors.

This isn't grade school, not everyone gets to play and be told they are good at everything. If you don't like the rules hold your own event or don't play. It IS fair if everyone follows the same rules, it just might not be what YOU prepared for.

[DSE 3]

There really isn't an efficient way to do this that I can see.
We considered weight classes for the Performance Cup, it was heavily discussed by several people.
While it can be broken up into weight classes, the heavier guys will just wear bigger suits. Smaller guys might still wear the bigger suits.
Or super heavy guy wearing a small suit.
Soon, you have a series of classes with only two, maybe three wingsuiters in the class. There just aren't that many wingsuiters out there. It makes judging more difficult as well.
Yes, height and weight make a big difference. Pounds per square foot being identical, it's a level comp. However, the likelihood of getting people within reasonably equal wingload ratios for a competition are pretty slender.
The obvious step is to have the lighter guys wearing big suits put on weights. However, where the weight needs to go isn't around the waist, so how to deal with that particular complication?

Overall, it simply becomes way too complex for the number of potential competitors in the pool, to break it down into height, weight, suit size.

[KrisFlyZ 0]

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The Paralog rules call for a crosswind flight. Assuming this was the case in these events, it looks like a bunch of people are over 3:1 without wind assist, and a couple are getting close to 4:1

All those competition results are after picking up speed in a sustained dive and flying downwind. They all normalise to less than 3:1.

[roostnureye 2]

here is an idea, just an idea:

height divided by weight= X

72" jumper that weigs 180lbs= 2.5 lbs per inch

then group people accordingly to their loading...
you can create as many "classes" of loadings as you please. if someone is on the cusp of a class then you can go to the weight adding and such.
but this still does not address the size of wingsuit to the loading of the body.

could we measure different suits and get an average sq foot/inch for each suit to be used as a standard. then use the loading formula over the foot/inch size of the wingsuit to determine actual loading of the wingsuit?

i know you guys will say that a 6' suit and a 5' suit of the same design will have different foot/inch size measurments. but if we measure the same 6' suit against other suit designs at 6' then it should take the variable out of the equasion.

im just throwing ideas out there, i know this is not the WBR, but if we come up with a fair way to judge loading then who knows how far it could go. im open to any ideas and criticism.

and DSE i agree that right now we do not have enough competitors to fill all of these "classes" but this sport is growing and who knows how many competitors we will have in 20yrs.

Flock University FWC / ZFlock
B.A.S.E. 1580
Aussie BASE 121

[DSE 3]

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here is an idea, just an idea:

height divided by weight= X

72" jumper that weigs 180lbs= 2.5 lbs per inch

then group people accordingly to their loading...
you can create as many "classes" of loadings as you please. if someone is on the cusp of a class then you can go to the weight adding and such.
but this still does not address the size of wingsuit to the loading of the body.

could we measure different suits and get an average sq foot/inch for each suit to be used as a standard. then use the loading formula over the foot/inch size of the wingsuit to determine actual loading of the wingsuit?

i know you guys will say that a 6' suit and a 5' suit of the same design will have different foot/inch size measurments. but if we measure the same 6' suit against other suit designs at 6' then it should take the variable out of the equasion.

im just throwing ideas out there, i know this is not the WBR, but if we come up with a fair way to judge loading then who knows how far it could go. im open to any ideas and criticism.

and DSE i agree that right now we do not have enough competitors to fill all of these "classes" but this sport is growing and who knows how many competitors we will have in 20yrs.

All good ideas. I propose we wait for another 5-10 years before worrying about it. What we know as wingsuits today will change dramatically over the next couple of years, and dramatically again in another couple of years. Some of the super cool technology that's just now getting to wingsuit design is really exciting. So...if we worry about this stuff now, we might be setting ourselves up for a problem in a few years.
Status quo isn't entirely equal, but there are ways to mitigate the big advantages...suit class is currently the easiest way to do that, IMO.

[kallend 1,621]

Easiest is to allow contestants to wear whatever wingsuit size they want, wear whatever weights they want, but have to wear the same in all events. If you add weights for speed, you disadvantage yourself in time. If you wear a humungous suit for time, you disadvantage yourself for speed... No different classes needed.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[DSE 3]

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Easiest is to allow contestants to wear whatever wingsuit size they want, wear whatever weights they want, but have to wear the same in all events. If you add weights for speed, you disadvantage yourself in time. If you wear a humungous suit for time, you disadvantage yourself for speed... No different classes needed.

Perhaps easier still (and the current rule) is wear whatever suit you want, must wear same suit for all events, and no weights. Same end result, less hassle for judges, clean and simple.

If someone wants to move to a different class after completing all tasks in one event, that should be fine too.