0
kallend

Glide ratio when flocking

Recommended Posts

Its quite clear you havent been in a lot of close proximity formations, or docked formations. Not talking that 'I can see someone in the distance' record spacing stuff:P

The difference in the size of wake between big/small suits flying the same speeds, is on of the easiest and most recognizable things to experience. But I guess its different to those of us who actually fly and experience it in the sky, than to those who only do it online;)

That aside...suit size and skill are often unrelated. Many people without the skills are put in big suits....but thats more a matter of choosing who you ask for advice;)
JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
*pops into the thread, perches on nearby object, produces bag of popcorn*

Now, I often exit last cause I can catch any formation regardless of where it goes so I'm useful to finish up the tail. Sometimes when the flock turns too hard out the door the most convenient way to get there is to start off flying backwards in an upright kneelfly position. Saves me having to loop back around to get down to the group sometimes. During that maneuver I figure I'm producing a glide ratio of about -.5/1.

I get the impression, if I did this in Europe people's heads would explode. If I'm not flying over 1/1 I'm doing it wrong? I must be an incompetent pilot.

I guess I'm gonna have to go join an Atmo dive or something. I figure a half-assed reverse wingsuit freefly would about match their glide... imagine the looks on faces when a wingsuit pulls up alongside the group, vertically oriented and flying in reverse. I think they'd probably ban me from flying in Europe just for being a dick.
-B
Live and learn... or die, and teach by example.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Oh shit I just realized... when we all went wingsuit bowling... we were flying at low glide ratio, and with weights!
The wake!
Now I know why every time two wingsuits bowled at once, at least one of them fell on their ass.
Doc, look what you've done, you've set a bad example and now all the cool kids are doing it.
Gonna be twice as hard to teach the newbies to fly right after this, now. They're all gonna think its ok to bowl in a mattress suit before they've mastered the suit they've got. Theres gonna be nylon all over the lanes. It'll be anarchy!
Bastards.
-B
Live and learn... or die, and teach by example.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
There is no EU vs US. Nor is flying a 1:1 glide ratio wrong. Or any glide.
Of course there is a better/worse, in terms of how I personaly love to fly. But for sure. If you want to fly 1/1 or less...nobody sais you cant.
It does depend on how you fly it, in terms of what 'flying' is. You can fly a 1:1 glide, at a steep angle. Legs all out. A lot of fun.
Heck, you can fly straight down, and alter angles where the wingsuit still is a vallueable asset to your jump.
Personaly I dont see a lot of sense in wearing a wingsuit, when all you do during a jump is trying to kill the actual effect it has on your freefall. But thats personal preference, and not the subject we're talking about here..

Its more about, do you need a Boeing 747 to join in a flock of Cessna's, and trying to fly that 747 inside that (close proximity flock) do those Cessna's notice an obviously larger displacement of air/wake around that huge plane.

Its not talking about how one should fly. Its merely about accepting the fact, that a flock (flying at ANY speed) will benefit from people not 'overdressed' for the occasion...and people who've done some of the bigger docked formations will all tell you, its clearly more difficult to dock on a big suit flown dirty, as opposed to a smaller one flying more optimal.
The angle at which the wings distort/guide the air around the suit, produce a lot of unwanted burble/turblence/wake compared to something smaller.
JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote


Personaly I dont see a lot of sense in wearing a wingsuit, when all you do during a jump is trying to kill the actual effect it has on your freefall. But thats personal preference, and not the subject we're talking about here..



It's what I was writing about when I started this thread. I really fail to see the point of wearing a wingsuit if all you want to do is to fly drop like a brick.

You could save the cost of the suit and do atmonauti instead.
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
There is no pecking....if the only way to communicate is to shut up, and not actually talk about some of the misconceptions, or possible improvements we'll be stuck with the same (compared to other diciplines) low standards in flying for the years to come..
JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
No pecking... what, you don't like birdseed? I could get you a bagel.

Ok you want talk? I'll give you some talk. Gonna be long but its a complex subject.

When I fly with new birds, anything goes, half the time I'm flying with 1-300 jump birds who often haven't come close to their suit performance limit yet and fly in a V with or without bent legs, and a fallrate I could catch with both wings behind my back.

When I fly with the more experienced birds I know, its still limited by the least powerful bird in the group, but fallrates and forward speeds more like we'd expect from experts. Sebastian Invitational, think it was '06, maybe '07, Scott Bland was leading flocks that lasted 2 to 2.5 minutes and were the only group wingsuit flights I've ever been on that actually made my arms burn.

The man KNOWS how its done...the flock built, and Scott gradually poured on the speed, till we were all flying wide open flat-out and fast as HELL.

The dives worked because the group was invitation-only, best pilots Scott could find nationwide.

Fact is, a lot of birds will have what we would consider short careers of 1 to 300 jumps or so before they move on, find something different, sometimes quit for something less challenging or less expensive.

Point is a big portion of our population is under 200 flights and always will be, and most of those don't and may never know how to get the most out of a suit. Some can fly but just don't have the gift and never really understand or get a feel for the suit...some just aren't strong enough to fly maxed out for more than a few seconds.

And then theres the suit variety. A flock made up of birds ranging from 120 lb girls to 220 lb 6 foot guys in suits from early Machs and Birdman gear to the latest Pfly and "-Bird" wing Tony suits, SOMEBODY in that flock will be flying dirty. Probably me.

I think most of the dirty flying people complain about is compensation for that.

Now, instead of pecking at each other about weights and wake and glide, couldn't we try discussing ways to get newbies up to speed quicker?

We've got a problem: fly with newbs, gotta fly dirty or you just ditch em and they learn nothing. But they don't learn the skills to flock maxed out without practicing in a flock. Ergo, dirty flyin' flocks happen.

So far the group solution to this has been to bicker about mattresses, dirty flying, weights and wake, and "european style" or "american style" flying which is just so much CRAP.

Thats fine. Now, any ideas about how to bring em up to spec? All I can think of would be to put em in flocks with experts who can gradually get new bird used to flying wide open.

And its not just "wide open" either. Getting hung up on how dirty the flying looks misses the REAL meat of it.

Lemme explain: I can get in a docked line of birds flying wide open. If I do, I have to start all scrunched up and funny looking when I take the docks. As the docked line settles, I work my wings out gradually to wide open, while adjusting shoulders and torso to keep the fallrate high anyway even though my wings are out wide. Its touchy to dial in, but I can do it easily enough by deliberately introducing small elements of what I'd consider bad posture... sloppy elbows, loose shoulders, who cares where my head is. And of course I can throw an actual Arch in there if I have to.

In essence when I do that I'm deliberately having to turn OFF the skills that normally would have me at 25 mph and 120 forward with my wings that wide. Its a wide-open but inefficient way to fly, but its the only way a 140 lb bird can stay matched to the flight of a 220 lb bird in a Raptor and have both birds look like they're wide open.

Many, perhaps even most of the wingsuit population never even know theres any other way to fly.

I see birds my own weight, in suits bigger than mine, who can "max out" all day long... and get a best fallrate of mid-40's. They upgraded suits without a real clue how to fly the previous one because they -thought- they'd mastered it since they could fly it wide open and stable. They see other birds doing the same.

All of em completely missed the REAL scale they should have had.

When I get a long term apprentice to REALLY teach, I have em spend FAR more time in small suit than they'd choose. Inevitably they become frustrated and claim to "need" more wing. They're doing 60 in an R-Bird and think it'll never get any better. I've been seeing this effect since I was training Justin in an early Phantom. He was pissed and discouraged that he couldn't get much below the 70's.

I told him stick with it, you only got 75 jumps on this thing and work on this and that. I kept working with him on the "ninja tricks" and when it clicked, he was able to get that sucker into the high 40's. When that happened, he got this look like "holy shit I get it now" and he had a whole new world of range to work with.

Getting any new bird to wait in a small suit till their skills have actually ripened is like pulling teeth. VERY few have the patience.

You wanna fix the dirty flying problem? Find a way to make it "Cool" to fly the small suits again. Not just for the first 50 to 100, but for the first 4 or 500.

I tried leading by example, there. Everybody knows I spent half my career in a GTI and an S-6, and in that S-6 I could stomp all over a flock of SuperMachs.

Few paid attention or understood the implications. Mostly they just go "He's just a light fucker thats all" and never notice "How come ALL the light fuckers can't do that?"

Everyone gets hung up on the idea that the destination, the goal is to GET to a big suit. Blinded by glamour and image.

The GOAL is to get as good as you possibly can in the suit you've already GOT.

Almost NOBODY actually DOES this.
How do we change that?
-B
Live and learn... or die, and teach by example.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Not ment in a bad way...but is everyone incapable of actually talking about the subject of 'big wingsuits' and the more massive wake they give of?

Its a really nice story...but its not about nitpicking. Its about optimizing out discipline, and progressing...and its peoples INCAPABILITY to discuss these subjects, without getting all cuddly, cozy, pat on the back friendly that limits them from progressing. And the fact that they (incorrectly) get offended when somebody tells them something that could actually help forward their flying.

Have you ever had coaching in FF, FS?
When these people give you tips on your flying. Do you ignore their advice, and instead go on and on about how lovely it is to fly backsliding or potato chipping the way you (anyone, not you specific) do? Sure you can. But will it make you progress? Or does (every once in a while) a meaningful and intelligent discussion on the things that COULD make us all fly better actually mean a good thing? And could it help us progress.

Stop being so defensive...and actually think about HOW we fly. What is is that happens in the formation. And how we can optimize it. And improve. Fly cleaner. Longer. Tighter...progress...
JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

[golf clap] Well said [/golf clap]



I wonder why the crew people don't applaud the guy with the 280 sq/ft canopy and a ton of lead, that tries to join in on their tight flown records..:D:P;)

Lets all hug and stick with 1999 style and proximity flying:ph34r::ph34r::ph34r::$
JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

You wanna fix the dirty flying problem? Find a way to make it "Cool" to fly the small suits again. Not just for the first 50 to 100, but for the first 4 or 500.



It's called Artistic Wingsuit Flying...and it's happening in your back yard coming aprilB|

You should have seen Gap. 30-ish flyers. All in 'tiny suits' while quite a few had 1k plus wingsuit jumps. You bet your ass its cool to fly small suits 'again'. I personaly didnt even realise it went out of fashion:P
JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

You wanna fix the dirty flying problem? Find a way to make it "Cool" to fly the small suits again. Not just for the first 50 to 100, but for the first 4 or 500.

I tried leading by example, there. Everybody knows I spent half my career in a GTI and an S-6, and in that S-6 I could stomp all over a flock of SuperMachs.

Few paid attention or understood the implications. Mostly they just go "He's just a light fucker thats all" and never notice "How come ALL the light fuckers can't do that?"

Everyone gets hung up on the idea that the destination, the goal is to GET to a big suit. Blinded by glamour and image.

The GOAL is to get as good as you possibly can in the suit you've already GOT.

Almost NOBODY actually DOES this.
How do we change that?
-B



In this, I couldn't agree more,
and it's the same thing Jarno, Butters, Tom, Andreea, myself have all been saying for a while. It seems to be a dick-wagging contest to see how fast one can get to a bigger suit; we see it all the time. Since the WS'r can't get under a Velo 103 for a while, he'll upsize to a big-ass suit because "he can really max it out on breakoff."

Generally, I'd purport that a large number of WS don't really care much about improving their flight, or as you say, maybe they don't know there is any other way to fly because that's how they see their coaches fly and what they see in photos.

Let's face it; a certain percentage of wingsuiters are people that suck in other disciplines. No FS or FF coaching in their pocket, no education in the sport at all. Half perhaps, got the A license, dicked around with free-flying and perhaps some tracking until the magic 200, and then put on a suit with no understanding of bodyflight. We see many FF-from-the-start folk be unsuccessful in Coach and AFFI programs because they don't understand their relationship to the air. WS'rs are much the same.

Getting into a big suit very fast is a way to preen and say "I'm a bad-ass" without any background to their skill set. Bigger wings compensate for lacking skills, unfortunately.

Come watch the Flight One guys teaching canopy control to newbies. You don't see them flying their Comp Velo's.
They're smarter than most WS coaches.

~How do we change it? Competition is part of it. Watch what happens at the artistic/RW comps. You wont' see people wearing XBirds, Venoms, Vampire 4's, or Apache's. It's the same precisional difference between stock car racing and Formula 1 racing. People will see how generally sloppy and turbulent they are in big suits and turn in lousy scores.

Some of it is manufacturer-rep pressure. "You need this big suit dude, it'll let you fly like...__insert big name here_" It's apparent in the BASE world, this sort of stupidity has killed and maimed quite a few. Robi had some great words about this subject during a rainy day at Elsinore. Manufacturer reps might consider the path they're painting (but it's unlikely).

How else? By having mentors that practice what they preach. Photos of coaches wearing X/sbirds while an FFC wears an Intro, Prodigy, Impact, are common. It's about ego. "I'm your coach and you wanna be like me, right?"
Changing that alone will be a big start. "Dress for success." If you're afraid you're gonna go low on a lightweight student, then learn to fly better yourself.

Do *you* put on your S6, Phantom, or Tbird when flying with FFCs and coaching jumps? Or do you fly the Sbird?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Actually I do fly the S-Bird with students, because I have not yet encountered anything I can't catch with it including Jeff in an Apache, and students just shy of 300 lbs in a T-Bird. In the old S-6 I occasionally encountered a gifted student who could -almost- get away from me by stumbling on a body position that gave them insane speeds in an Intro. The tail alone is almost enough to let them outrun me. With the S-Bird that has never happened.

When I got that suit I had a choice of any suit I wanted. I -really- wanted an X-Bird, but it was not an ideal choice for a general-purpose suit, and I wanted to be able to use this one new suit for everything. For a bird of my weight an S-Bird was a far more appropriate choice and far more useful. An X would be USELESS for flocks and a serious hindrance for staying with the faster students. One way or another the drag must be dealt with and it'd be a pain in the ass staying with a student while curled up in the smallest ball I can make because I was too dumb to take off the Ego Suit. I dispensed with that possibility by not buying one. I will be scoring an X2 soon...for comp purposes only. I'm within reach of a #1 standing in Distance or Time, but against the likes of the magnificent pilots at Gransee and Elsinore I'll need a bigger gun.

So far the only time I've actually needed to change out suits was the Vertical Challenge and that was purely for appearances. I could hold the slot but looked damn stupid trying, everyone else with wings open and stable, and me, in slot, but wings almost completely shut and the suit skittering around in the slot. Only took 2 tries for me to get the picture and choose the correct tool for the job at hand. Nobody had to ask me to, I knew damn well if I didn't, -I'D- be the idiot in the wrong suit trashing the game. Not my style.

However if I wind up working with a very high fallrate student on something precise that requires me to be very close and tight with them, same as before I won't hesitate. I keep my old S-6 on the wall flight-ready...just in case.

Given the improved teaching techniques you shared with me while I was in town, I will say I'm likely to start putting more mileage on that tattered old thing depending on the lesson and student, specifically because of the added precision that suit offers at higher fallrates.
-B
Live and learn... or die, and teach by example.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

0