Instability on my R Bird etc

[jamesfreefall 0]

OK, so this is my first post on here and i am looking for some advice... not critism !

I have done approx 50 wingsuit jumps on my Birdman Firebird suit which were all fun and never had any issues - stable flight, easy to fly, easy to pull pilot chute etc etc

I have now got myself a Tony Suit R Bird. Tony measured me up and said it was a good suit to progress onto as i am quite heavy and tended to sink out when flying my Birdman suit

So here's the thing, I did my first jump at the weekend with the pressurisation zips all undone and after exiting the plane went to turn left and entered my first ever flat spin. I recovered OK but found it really hard to hold on a level and seemed to be fighting with it not to spin again. Come pull time I struggled to find pilot chute despite sliding my hand along bottom of container.

Not to be deterred, I tried again, this time i zipped up the pressurisation zips and it did seem to make the suit a bit more stable in flight and I didnt spin up this time but again it did feel like it wanted to, especially when changing heading. I didntnt feel at all in control. Come pull time i found it even harder to find the pilot chute.

I acknowledge I am still relatively inexperienced and all new things take time to learn but did anybody else have any issues like this and what can I do to fly better, turn easier and pull quicker !!

Any help from you guys out there would be welcome

Im pretty nervous to even jump it again and tempted to go back to my Birdman :(

Thanks

James

[davelepka 4]

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OK, so this is my first post on here and i am looking for some advice... not critism !

Delete your post. Anything can happen, and if you're not ready to hear the good, the bad, and the ugly, just don't get involved.

[Skwrl 56]

It's kind of hard to diagnose without seeing you fly, but the R bird is, in general, a good intermediate suit. All things being equal, I would have suggested that you do more jumps on your old suit before you switched to the R-bird. Not criticism, just what I would have said if you asked for advice before you bought a new suit.

But having said that, an obvious question arises - does the suit fit you well?

I think the best bit of advice you're going to get on DZ.com will be to get a coach who can watch (and hopefully video) you to provide feedback.

Skwrl Productions - Wingsuit Photography

Northeast Bird School - Chief Logistics Guy and Video Dork

[Butters 0]

Why skip the T-Bird and go straight to the R-Bird? If you're unstable you're likely distorting or almost stalling the suit.

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[DSE 3]

Quote

OK, so this is my first post on here and i am looking for some advice... not critism !

I have done approx 50 wingsuit jumps on my Birdman Firebird suit which were all fun and never had any issues - stable flight, easy to fly, easy to pull pilot chute etc etc

I have now got myself a Tony Suit R Bird. Tony measured me up and said it was a good suit to progress onto as i am quite heavy and tended to sink out when flying my Birdman suit

So here's the thing, I did my first jump at the weekend with the pressurisation zips all undone and after exiting the plane went to turn left and entered my first ever flat spin. I recovered OK but found it really hard to hold on a level and seemed to be fighting with it not to spin again. Come pull time I struggled to find pilot chute despite sliding my hand along bottom of container.

Not to be deterred, I tried again, this time i zipped up the pressurisation zips and it did seem to make the suit a bit more stable in flight and I didnt spin up this time but again it did feel like it wanted to, especially when changing heading. I didntnt feel at all in control. Come pull time i found it even harder to find the pilot chute.

I acknowledge I am still relatively inexperienced and all new things take time to learn but did anybody else have any issues like this and what can I do to fly better, turn easier and pull quicker !!

Any help from you guys out there would be welcome

Im pretty nervous to even jump it again and tempted to go back to my Birdman :(

Thanks

James

I would suggest a couple of things.
-you've probably learnt some bad habits that don't translate well to the R-bird.
-it ain't the zips..... see above.
-even money says it wasn't a flat spin. Corkscrewing, perhaps, flat spin...almost certainly not.

Turn with only your head as you become familiar with the suit. keep your 'fuselage' straight (your torso/body)
keep the pressure zips undone for a while until you learn to manage the more rigid wing.
Be aware of your legs. because of the root, legs have a bigger impact on movement.
Work on slightly arched or even flat flying until you can fly the suit with stability.
Consider doing more jumps on the Firebird, but learn to fly it smoothly. Practice proximity with someone else so you can get a better idea of how your movements affect your flight (relative to a stable object)
The Rbird is a fine suit, but it's not the "go to" suit (IMO) for newbies.
This constant BS I hear about "I'm heavy and so&so said I needed a big suit to compensate" is a scary thing. Bigger suit+bigger ass = lazy fliers at best, and faster, more unstable meat-missles at worst.

[mccordia 73]

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I would have suggested that you do more jumps on your old suit

As Skwrl mentions, do a few jumps on your smaller wingsuit, and combine those with a good coach (one who works on body position, leg/arm inputs, and how to fly, and not tells you to change zipper settings). Most likely you're making inputs that are a tad too big.

With several of the large surface model wingsuits, his leads to arm inputs influencing leg inputs. Counter steering and in case of compensating leading to an exaggerated version of pilot induced oscillation. You're actually creating/feeding the instability with your corrective movements.

JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

[gzimmermann 0]

I think I understand you rather well and can only recommend following the hints here. DSE's lines are worth it, one by one.
I started with a Phantom2 and got my own Ghost3 at around 100 jumps. My first 2-3 jumps on a test suit where not very stable too. However I did find the handle at pull time by making a hard angle with my right hand over the wing always. It is important to practice on the ground and not panic if you need two attempts later on. Better two attempts but still stable at pull time with the bigger suits.
Besides: I felt it more rewarding to continue with the Phantom2 and really work on my body position, maxing it out to 150 secs or even more, docking, precise flying with a buddy, first acro..... Out of 190 jumps I have about 15 with the Ghost (and loved them too!), says it all. I don't fall low in formations anymore (I am 6.3, 220 exit weight) with the small suit unless I made a mistake myself.

[Butters 0]

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I don't fall low in formations anymore (I am 6.3, 220 exit weight) with the small suit unless I made a mistake myself.

This was worth repeating.

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[roostnureye 2]

I own an rbird as my go to wingsuit, I would bet your head position is what is causing your instability.... do ALLOT of practice touches on the ground, get used to where the pud is before you jump the suit again, when you do get back up in the air, try pushing the wingsuit a little steeper of a glide (head low)... I had some issues stalling the suit out in the beginning. this is from lack of forward drive. I solved the problem by pushing my head down, looking at the ground, not the horizon.... this is by no way any kind of coaching, this is what helped me solve my problem. get a wingsuit coach and have them shoot some video of you and post it here, you will get all kinds of feedback

Flock University FWC / ZFlock
B.A.S.E. 1580
Aussie BASE 121

[gzimmermann 0]

Thanks! And I noticed a few more things in this thread:
1. James did not get bashed so far. He could have been beaten though, upsizing in suit and not really getting the handle....
2. Spot has a good day. 200 bucks worth in remote consulting and learnt instead of learned because of a Brit asking. Very sensitive, i was questioning myself already on correct grammar recently.
3. Small suits ARE sexy. I will probably get a Shadow soon to get rid of the wing handle thing while playing around with other Shadowers ;-)
Edit to add: no brand war at all!

[DSE 3]

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3. Small suits ARE sexy.

This too...bears repeating.

[Titanium_Gecko 0]

James,

+1 on everying DSE has said. I have sent you a PM.

If I can be of any help flying in the UK just shout.

Regards,
Ross

www.gathhelmets.co.uk
www.flyyourbody.com

[Zeemax 0]

James, from the look on your FB picture it looks like the fit might be a little bit big - How does it feel in flight?

When are you next at Sibson? I can have a look if you want, and we can go for a fly. I'll film you so we can get an idea of what's going on in the air

Phoenix Fly - High performance wingsuits for skydiving and BASE
Performance Designs - Simply brilliant canopies

[kallend 1,622]

All the advice looks good, and I would add "RELAX".

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[lurch 0]

All of above is gospel. I might suggest adding this as a progress guide: Stick with the small suit until you have become so comfy in it that flips, spins etc do not disorient you or catch you by surprise. At some point your recovery gets so fluid and automatic that flat spins or anything like them just don't happen to you because you recover in half a twist. At that point you're ready for big wings. I stuck with a Birdman GTI for my first 500 flights. Learned a lot that way.

Live and learn... or die, and teach by example.

[KrisFlyZ 0]

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At some point your recovery gets so fluid and automatic that flat spins or anything like them just don't happen to you because you recover in half a twist.

That is so true. The first video is from earlier in the season. The time lost in the first video is because of trying to bALL UP TO FIX THE SPIN. The time lost in the second video was pretty much because I was cursing at myself for screwing up after we discussed what not to do on the ground instead of fixing the issue.

Slow recovery trying to 'ball up' 30 secs.

Quicker Recovery ..9 secs.

[The111 0]

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All of above is gospel. I might suggest adding this as a progress guide: Stick with the small suit until you have become so comfy in it that flips, spins etc do not disorient you or catch you by surprise. At some point your recovery gets so fluid and automatic that flat spins or anything like them just don't happen to you because you recover in half a twist. At that point you're ready for big wings. I stuck with a Birdman GTI for my first 500 flights. Learned a lot that way.

When you believe that flat spins are a myth, it is time to upsize.

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[WickedWingsuits 0]

James ,

The way I explain the "Bird" progression to folks is along these lines:

First it starts by dribbling on about canopies for a while...

There are a lot of well documented progressions for canopy downsizing that can be referenced, including http://www.dropzone.com/content/Detailed/47.html. All agree that you learn to fly a canopy until you can handle it in a wide variety of conditions including flat turns, riser turns, riser landings, off field landings, etc before downsizing. How I read these are "stick with a canopy until you are bored of it, in all situations".

The same translates to wingsuits except in reverse, small to large, upsizing.

Imagine as a new sksydiver you have done a couple of tandems and AFF jumps and realize that the sport is for you...you sign up to get your A and you decide to buy a rig and canopy. You are 170lb out of the door with gear. What's the right size canopy to last you your first few years of skydving? Maybe a 170 so you are at 1:1 or at a push your instructor might say a 150 at 1.13 or even more aggressive maybe a 135 at 1.26. Regardless of the choice you wouldn't skip the jumps spent on a Navigator 260...then 220...then 210...then 190 etc. Also you shouldn't *really* downsize and change platform at the same time...so not from a 9 cell to a 7 cell or vice versa.

These same concepts apply to wingsuiting!

The R Bird is probably the right "wing loading" suit for your first years in wingsuiting but you shouldn't skip the time you need to spent on the suit progression to get there. It will help not just with safety cushion but will also equate to better and more immediate performance on the R-Bird.

I have heard from a few folks that eventually flew their own custom ordered S Birds that the time spent on the T and R was at first expected to be a "waste" but instead turned out to be a critical part of the journey. This is regardless of their size or "wing loading", one guy in mind was 6'2" and 245lbs...but he did his time on a T before the R and then the R before the S.

I personally believe that the platform is also relevant. I flew a firebird plenty but it isn't the same as flying a "Bird" suit...you will get yourself ready for an R in a T more effectively. As John said, a key part to learning a "Bird" is to relax...the style of flying them is different than other suit ranges, not better or worse, just different.

Bottom line....Fly a suit until you are bored of it in all situations, that exits, diving, floating, backfly, rolls, loops, docs, formatiions etc and then you are ready to Upsize if there is a need too.

Mark Harris at Sibson can help you out with a T Bird if you decide to go that route.

Simon

Summer Rental special, 5 weeks for the price of 4! That is $160 a month.

Try before You Buy with Wicked Wingsuits - WingsuitRental.com

[mccordia 73]

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These same concepts apply to wingsuiting!

Only in the way that you need to take small steps when progressing.
But it differs from downsizing canopies in that most people would not need anything bigger than the suit they start on.

Where a 190 or 170 canopy may not be the canopy one wants to fly for the rest of their skydive career (and it may complicate things with wind etc even if you have a wingloading thats too light), with wingsuits its the other way around. And the upsizing some people do, actually makes them slower flyers, and sometimes leads to light people not even reaching the formation. They fly the same glide path, but at way slower speeds due to the large suit. The bigger suits also react more sluggish and have cross-input between legwing/armwings due to the longer/lower wingroot.

Bigger is far from better in most cases...

JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

[Butters 0]

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Slow recovery trying to 'ball up' 30 secs.

Quicker Recovery ..9 secs.

Those aren't flat spins, they're tumbles.

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[mccordia 73]

A flatspin is just a scary made up name for instability/tumbling people don't fix as quick as they'd like to..

JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

[gzimmermann 0]

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Slow recovery trying to 'ball up' 30 secs.

Quicker Recovery ..9 secs.

Those aren't flat spins, they're tumbles.

The camera screams: "Prop.....", but he does not listen.

[jamesfreefall 0]

Thanks for all the info / advice etc.

Im starting to think I have bought the wrong suit and am now kinda stuck with it i guess.

On the Tonysuit website it says the R-BIrd is appropriate for people with 25+ wingsuit jumps but im getting the feel from you guys out there that this is way too little.

I was hoping that with a bit of focus and lots of solo's (and maybe some coached jumps initially) I would get the hang of this beast.

James

[KrisFlyZ 0]

Quote

Quote

Slow recovery trying to 'ball up' 30 secs.

Quicker Recovery ..9 secs.

Those aren't flat spins, they're tumbles.

Sure, did you read what the description says for the first video?

[DSE 3]

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On the Tonysuit website it says the R-BIrd is appropriate for people with 25+ wingsuit jumps but im getting the feel from you guys out there that this is way too little.

Right....and the Xbird is appropriate for someone with less than 100 jumps. Not to mention the Sbird that seems to show up on people with 10 jumps. One guy at Couch Freaks had an Sbird with ZERO jumps because he was told "that's the suit for big guys to fly. He wanted an FFC in that suit (because he'd been sold on it and paid for it)

You didn't buy the "wrong" suit. You just received it too soon.

Get at least a couple coached jumps on the Firebird to get some body position feedback, get it from someone that actually is a coach and not a twink that can merely fly a camera.
You *can* grow into the Rbird, but it's gonna take some time, coaching, and experience.
Screw the "relax." Just inhale/exhale. Consciously.
Exhale creates "relax." focus on keeping your jaw loose. It'll make a big difference, money-back guarantee.