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Wingsuit Soaring

 

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gisellemartins

Jan 22, 2012, 3:56 PM
Post #26 of 152 (3157 views)
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Re: [twatterpilot] Wingsuit Soaring [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
As a sailplane pilot, the act of "Soaring" with a wing suit ain't quite there YET. But damn impressive folks! I predict a RAPID evolution of this aspect of wing suit results. While it will probably be impossible to match the performance of true sailplanes, you guys will probably get close enough that a real strong ridge day will yield some very impressive flying! Some of the new sailplanes can climb with as little as 200 feet per minute of rising air, and yield best L/D glide ratios exceeding 60 to 1. But that is an amazing step in the right direction! Good Job! My guess is you will need 30+ kts of wind to hold altitude, more if you are looking to climb. What kind of descent rates are y'all getting?


It's actually quite simple to do the math on how strong a ridge day it would require to maintain altitude on a wing suit. What is the SLOWEST vertical descent speed you can obtain with the best wingsuit on the planet? Take that speed, change it to miles per hour and multiply it by 5-7. (Over simplification, but it works as a general rule for safety margin) That number will be the wind speed required blowing into the face of the ridge at a 90 degree angle. Any angle off 90 to the ridge will require proportionally higher wind speed. We in sailplanes with a roughly 40-1 glide ratio (about 200 Feet per minute descent rate) usually need around 10 kts of wind to maintain altitude at ridge top. we normally fly 50-100 feet or so from the trees laterally, at tree top height at the top of the ridge. It's alot of fun to fly the ridge at 130 kts watching trees zip by!

Good to see a pilot in the middle of the crowd ;) Nice explained.

gisellemartins

Jan 22, 2012, 4:09 PM
Post #27 of 152 (3151 views)
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Re: [jakee] Wingsuit Soaring [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
"Jake said: ignorant with a crap idea" My idea was exactly what the guys on the video were trying to do, find the right place, with the right wind and the right size of suit (wingload) and try to soar with it, what you think it is so "crap"?

That bit.

You think it's feasible to wear suits with a surface area proportional to fruitbats. That's a crap idea, and if you still think it's not a crap idea, you haven't learned anything since your last visit.

In reply to:
The guys together wingsuit/paragliders companies came together to try to make it happen for the first time and they almost made it, and they will try again, hopefully they will manage it and shut up guys who speak so much crap like you.

They found almost the perfect spot, in excellent conditions, used one of the biggest suits on the market and were still a long way from maintaining altitude. It's still wicked cool, but it's not what you're talking about. And if they did one day achieve what you've been talking about, it'll be nothing to do with the suits you've been daydreaming about.

Jakee you are the true self-contradiction walking on legs.

I won't go further talking about Aerodynamics or Zoology/Ornithology with you, firstly because I will only waste my time as you are not a pilot or a Biologist, unlike myself.

Firstly you are wrong about sizes, a speed wing/small paraglider around 10sqm (square meter) or hangglider around the same size can easily sustain soaring with a pilot around 80kg in strong wind ( as seen on the video)

An Apache or Fusion is not far from 10sqm.

Secondly All I said before and now is the same thing, clear and simple and i can repeat it for you once again, wingsuits will get bigger with higher Aspect Ratios getting slower and with better sink rate and better glide ratio, extended arm frame with graphene or carbon fiber with an intelligente design will help you keep your arms open with bigger suits effortless, because of the gain in performance and size the wingsuits will start being able to soar, they almost made it, if the pilot was a bit lighter (for his same height) and the wind was a bit stronger they would have sustained level flight.

Thats what i said and thats my opinion about it, if you say what I think is crap, well thats your problem, you wont change the facts ;)


(This post was edited by gisellemartins on Jan 22, 2012, 4:10 PM)

Butters  (C 37840)

Jan 22, 2012, 4:32 PM
Post #28 of 152 (3144 views)
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Re: [gisellemartins] Wingsuit Soaring [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
An Apache or Fusion is not far from 10sqm.

Are you being serious? An individual who is 6ft (1.83m) will have approximately 36sqft (3.35sqm) in the largest wingsuits ... that is pretty far from 107sqft (10sqm).

The111  (D 29246)

Jan 22, 2012, 4:36 PM
Post #29 of 152 (3137 views)
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Re: [gisellemartins] Wingsuit Soaring [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
An Apache or Fusion is not far from 10sqm.

Taking the average male height worldwide to be somewhere around 1.7m, the area of the Vitruvian man's circle is about 3.5sqm. See the attached image for an overlay of a modern large wingsuit on top of the Vitruvian man. I'd guess by eyeballing that only about 1/2 of the circle is being used (and I'm being generous here, I think). So maybe 1.75sqm for a modern large wingsuit.

How exactly is 2sqm "not far" from 10sqm? Granted I'm no biologist... but to me that seems like a factor of 5. See the next attached image for this wingsuit scaled 2.4x linearly (5.75x by area). I'm not sure it looks any less ridiculous than the image you still have as your avatar, but either is impossible without a rigid airframe, at which point it may be really super cool... but it won't be a wingsuit anymore. Also, I'm not sure if biologists know about forces and moments, but having arms that are twice as short as they need to be does not mean that you have shoulders which are twice as weak as they need to be. It's a lot worse.
Attachments: Virtu-wingsuit-1.jpg (106 KB)
  Virtu-wingsuit-2.jpg (122 KB)

gisellemartins

Jan 22, 2012, 4:42 PM
Post #30 of 152 (3131 views)
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Re: [Butters] Wingsuit Soaring [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
An Apache or Fusion is not far from 10sqm.

Are you being serious? An individual who is 6ft (1.83m) will have approximately 36sqft (3.35sqm) in the largest wingsuits ... that is pretty far from 107sqft (10sqm).

If you consider that in a few years back our flyingsuits had almost 0sqm and now we have almost 4sqm then it is not so far.

A paraglider have enormous amount of drag (lines) and also a poor aerodinamic shape as the wing is made of light fabric without frame and it is curved (arc). The ideal airfoil wound be close to (flat) like Hangies and wingsuits (wingsuits have less drag and better aerodynamics than paragliders). A well designed advanced hangglider could be around 7sqm and it will still soar with a pilot, (very fast but it would) Once again, considering the teconlogy we have today and amazing bird minds out there, I dont think we are too many years from being able to soar on a wingsuit


(This post was edited by gisellemartins on Jan 22, 2012, 4:44 PM)

gisellemartins

Jan 22, 2012, 4:49 PM
Post #31 of 152 (3127 views)
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Re: [The111] Wingsuit Soaring [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
An Apache or Fusion is not far from 10sqm.

Taking the average male height worldwide to be somewhere around 1.7m, the area of the Vitruvian man's circle is about 3.5sqm. See the attached image for an overlay of a modern large wingsuit on top of the Vitruvian man. I'd guess by eyeballing that only about 1/2 of the circle is being used (and I'm being generous here, I think). So maybe 1.75sqm for a modern large wingsuit.

How exactly is 2sqm "not far" from 10sqm? Granted I'm no biologist... but to me that seems like a factor of 5. See the next attached image for this wingsuit scaled 2.4x linearly (5.75x by area). I'm not sure it looks any less ridiculous than the image you still have as your avatar, but either is impossible without a rigid airframe, at which point it may be really super cool... but it won't be a wingsuit anymore. Also, I'm not sure if biologists know about forces and moments, but having arms that are twice as short as they need to be does not mean that you have shoulders which are twice as weak as they need to be. It's a lot worse.

I'm not sure about your cartoon explanation, your calculations may be far wrong, An airfoil design program could calculate it exactly, with the wing in the right shape using extend arm frames as bigger suits does. I'm sure it wont work that way, the wings can go span wise, higher aspect ratio.

Anyway Airfoil design is an endless subjetc as it can take many forms to adjust a certain type of flight and frame structure.


(This post was edited by gisellemartins on Jan 22, 2012, 4:52 PM)

The111  (D 29246)

Jan 22, 2012, 4:53 PM
Post #32 of 152 (3123 views)
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Re: [gisellemartins] Wingsuit Soaring [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
If you consider that in a few years back our flyingsuits had almost 0sqm and now we have almost 4sqm then it is not so far.

And if you consider that my 90 year old grandfather was once only 15, you may conclude he will live to be 250. Unfortunately, there are real physical limits to everything, such as how much surface area the human frame can support (let alone be LARGE enough to support) in freefall.

In reply to:
(wingsuits have less drag and better aerodynamics than paragliders).

How can a pilot claim that a glider with L/D 3:1 has better aerodynamics than a glider with L/D 10:1?

The111  (D 29246)

Jan 22, 2012, 4:56 PM
Post #33 of 152 (3120 views)
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Re: [gisellemartins] Wingsuit Soaring [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
'm not sure about your cartoon explanation, your calculations may be far wrong, An airfoil design program could calculate it exactly

What does airfoil design have to do with simple 2D geometry? If you're not sure about my cartoons, build your own and show us. Maybe you'll outsmart Da Vinci in the process.

gisellemartins

Jan 22, 2012, 5:02 PM
Post #34 of 152 (3114 views)
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Re: [The111] Wingsuit Soaring [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

How can a pilot claim that a glider with L/D 3:1 has better aerodynamics than a glider with L/D 10:1?

You are comparing Apples with oranges, one thing have nothing to do with another.

A wingsuit have far superior aerodynamics, because the profile is flat, not arched plus no lines ( which is enormous amount of drag on paragliders and therefore a lot of performance is lost due that)

for a paraglider and a wingsuit with higher aspect ratio in the same size and the weight of the pilot being equal on both the wingsuit will probably have a glide ratio far superior, probably well over 15:1


(This post was edited by gisellemartins on Jan 22, 2012, 5:04 PM)

ifell  (C 3591)

Jan 22, 2012, 5:05 PM
Post #35 of 152 (3109 views)
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Re: [The111] Wingsuit Soaring [In reply to] Can't Post

Hey my time machine works!!! It's last year all over again

The111  (D 29246)

Jan 22, 2012, 5:06 PM
Post #36 of 152 (3107 views)
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Re: [gisellemartins] Wingsuit Soaring [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
for a paraglider and a wingsuit with higher aspect ratio in the same size and the weight of the pilot being equal on both the wingsuit will probably have a glide ratio far superior, probably well over 15:1

In other words, for your imaginary version of a wingsuit. The aspect ratio of a wingsuit is what it is, until you bring your 30ft wingspin wingsuit to the market.

gisellemartins

Jan 22, 2012, 5:18 PM
Post #37 of 152 (3101 views)
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Re: [The111] Wingsuit Soaring [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

In other words, for your imaginary version of a wingsuit. The aspect ratio of a wingsuit is what it is, until you bring your 30ft wingspin wingsuit to the market.

The magic of flying have many forms and shapes, we still have lots to learn, a peregrine falcon can glide better than most lighter high aspect ratio birds, even tho the female is almost 1kg heavier.

With the advent of extended arm frames, the Aspect Ratio of wingsuits has increased a lot in the past few years, specially from tonysuits, plus with the current wingsuits the dreamers from the video above almost made it so you never know what will happen with wingsuits in a few years time. Thats the point I'm saying.


(This post was edited by gisellemartins on Jan 22, 2012, 5:18 PM)

Electronaut  (C 38872)

Jan 22, 2012, 5:56 PM
Post #38 of 152 (3090 views)
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Re: [gisellemartins] Wingsuit Soaring [In reply to] Can't Post

I want whatever drug you're consuming, because it must be some good shit.

pchapman  (D 1014)

Jan 22, 2012, 6:28 PM
Post #39 of 152 (3081 views)
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Re: [niall1] Wingsuit Soaring [In reply to] Can't Post

Twatterpilot has it right. Whatever one wants to say about glide ratios -- and they are of importance -- one can't soar -- that is, maintain height -- unless the updraft speed is greater than the wingsuit jumper's downward fall rate in still air.

So if someone could, say, sustain 30 mph downward speed (and I don't know the current numbers), they'd need the vertical component of the wind / thermal / updraft to be 30 mph = 2640 fpm = 13 m/s.

That's well outside normal lift conditions for those in soaring sports -- although they are possible.

So to speculate, where does one find extreme lift?

To get that kind of lift, you'd need to fly into or just under a cumulonimbus thunderhead, into a gale blowing against an exposed cliff line, into unusually strong upper level winds hitting a high mountain peak, into a wave soaring aerial wave downwind of mountains, that sort of thing. Extreme thermals in the best soaring locations may have the updraft speed, but a wingsuit isn't going to circle tightly in one even if it could be located. So you'd need some longer line or region of strong lift to work with.

So some pretty extreme weather conditions is needed to get the kind of lift to soar a wingsuit in. Can you find strong winds that aren't ridiculously turbulent? And how do you land? If you are trying to capture high altitude orographic lift (ridge lift, wind blowing up a mountainside), or wave lift, you might need to drop from 20,000'.

Maybe launch from an aircraft above and in front of an isolated Alpine mountain on a very strong wind day and plan to land down in a sheltered valley where you don't have 60 knot winds? Among the choices for wingsuit soaring, that scenario actually sounds like one of the best.

In the end it comes down to descent rate.

You need better wingsuits to soar in more normal conditions. (And the question is always how to do that without adding rigid spars or rigid wings that over stretch the definition of "suit".) Or else you have to search out some extreme air. (Where there are some complications with turbulence and getting down safely afterwards).

Skwrl  (C 36419)

Jan 23, 2012, 7:22 AM
Post #40 of 152 (2988 views)
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Re: [jakee] Wingsuit Soaring [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
You think it's feasible to wear suits with a surface area proportional to fruitbats. That's a crap idea, and if you still think it's not a crap idea, you haven't learned anything since your last visit.

You've got it all wrong, Jakee. Wink it's already been done, by several. For example, meet Rudolf Boehlen: http://www.parapente-saintevictoire.com/...rudolf%20boehlen.jpg

These designs worked about as well as you would expect, which is another way to say "not at all".


(This post was edited by Skwrl on Jan 23, 2012, 9:06 AM)

Skwrl  (C 36419)

Jan 23, 2012, 7:35 AM
Post #41 of 152 (2982 views)
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Re: [The111] Wingsuit Soaring [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
And if you consider that my 90 year old grandfather was once only 15, you may conclude he will live to be 250. Unfortunately, there are real physical limits to everything...

Dude, the progression that she extrapolated is completely sustainable: http://xkcd.com/1007/.

Premier LouDiamond  (D 25931)
Moderator
Jan 23, 2012, 7:49 AM
Post #42 of 152 (2973 views)
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Re: Wingsuit Soaring [In reply to] Can't Post

Here is some more discussion material I came across, skip to the 1:45 mark to save yourself some time. Enjoy.Smile

twatterpilot  (A License)

Jan 23, 2012, 3:37 PM
Post #43 of 152 (2894 views)
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Re: [pchapman] Wingsuit Soaring [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Twatterpilot has it right. Whatever one wants to say about glide ratios -- and they are of importance -- one can't soar -- that is, maintain height -- unless the updraft speed is greater than the wingsuit jumper's downward fall rate in still air.

So if someone could, say, sustain 30 mph downward speed (and I don't know the current numbers), they'd need the vertical component of the wind / thermal / updraft to be 30 mph = 2640 fpm = 13 m/s.

That's well outside normal lift conditions for those in soaring sports -- although they are possible.

So to speculate, where does one find extreme lift?

To get that kind of lift, you'd need to fly into or just under a cumulonimbus thunderhead, into a gale blowing against an exposed cliff line, into unusually strong upper level winds hitting a high mountain peak, into a wave soaring aerial wave downwind of mountains, that sort of thing. Extreme thermals in the best soaring locations may have the updraft speed, but a wingsuit isn't going to circle tightly in one even if it could be located. So you'd need some longer line or region of strong lift to work with.

So some pretty extreme weather conditions is needed to get the kind of lift to soar a wingsuit in. Can you find strong winds that aren't ridiculously turbulent? And how do you land? If you are trying to capture high altitude orographic lift (ridge lift, wind blowing up a mountainside), or wave lift, you might need to drop from 20,000'.

Maybe launch from an aircraft above and in front of an isolated Alpine mountain on a very strong wind day and plan to land down in a sheltered valley where you don't have 60 knot winds? Among the choices for wingsuit soaring, that scenario actually sounds like one of the best.

In the end it comes down to descent rate.

You need better wingsuits to soar in more normal conditions. (And the question is always how to do that without adding rigid spars or rigid wings that over stretch the definition of "suit".) Or else you have to search out some extreme air. (Where there are some complications with turbulence and getting down safely afterwards).

There are actually quite a few places where you will be able to find areas of high winds at or near ridge top, with calmer winds in the valley. However... Those days the ride on the ridge is quite rough, and often dangerous. It is do-able though. It will be an uncommon event to see weather that will be conducive to wing suit soaring. Thermal soaring and wave soaring will not be possible, as I doubt a wing suiter's ability to do continuous turns with radius under 200-300 feet while keeping forward speed under 70 mph and descent rates low.

This is often why the ultra-high performance sailplanes have wing spans OVER 25 meters and cost 250 grand an up. There are some sailplanes with wingspans over 32 meters. Talk about aspect ratio! These birds have a minimum sink rate of about .42 meters/second. Or 82 Feet per minute.

To put that in perspective, An ASH-25 with 25 meter wingspan, if it were towed to 13,500 feet in still air, it would stay aloft for 162 minutes at min sink airspeed of about 45 knots. That is 2 hours and 42 minutes. The ASH-25 has a glide ratio in excess of 50-1. The average training glider is around 20-1. Sink rate of a SGS 2-33 is probably around 200 feet per minute. It would still take 1 hour and 7 minutes for that 2-33 to land after a 13,500 foot tow.

Just throwing this data out there. Not trying to shoot down anyone's ideas. I still am confident that soaring with a VERY advanced wing suit is possible with the right conditions.

jakee  (C License)

Jan 23, 2012, 4:04 PM
Post #44 of 152 (2885 views)
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Re: [gisellemartins] Wingsuit Soaring [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I won't go further talking about Aerodynamics or Zoology/Ornithology with you, firstly because I will only waste my time as you are not a pilot or a Biologist, unlike myself.

Actually I am one of those, but thanks for askingLaugh

I'm also a wingsuit flyer, unlike yourself, but I will make another (doomed) attempt to make you realise you're talking nonsense.

In reply to:
Firstly you are wrong about sizes, a speed wing/small paraglider around 10sqm (square meter) or hangglider around the same size can easily sustain soaring with a pilot around 80kg in strong wind ( as seen on the video)

I have said nothing about the sizes of paragliders or hanggliders, so how exactly does that make me wrong?

In reply to:
An Apache or Fusion is not far from 10sqm.

Yeah, uh, you're wrong. An Apache or a Fusion is pretty fucking far from 10m^2. It's actually significantly closer to 0m^2.

In reply to:
Secondly All I said before and now is the same thing, clear and simple and i can repeat it for you once again,

You can repeat yourself all you want, it won't make you right.

In reply to:
wingsuits will get bigger with higher Aspect Ratios

Wingsuits haven't got any wider since the Skyflyer. That was a long time ago. You can try and make it wider with struts and braces and crap if you want, but the thing you end up with won't be a wingsuit.

In reply to:
Thats what i said and thats my opinion about it, if you say what I think is crap, well thats your problem, you wont change the facts ;)

Yep, facts are indeed facts, and no matter how hard you wish an Apache to be 10m^2 it's just going to keep being the same size.


(This post was edited by jakee on Jan 23, 2012, 4:22 PM)

jakee  (C License)

Jan 23, 2012, 4:13 PM
Post #45 of 152 (2883 views)
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Re: [gisellemartins] Wingsuit Soaring [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
If you consider that in a few years back our flyingsuits had almost 0sqm

They didn't have almost 0m^2. They had significantly more than that.

In reply to:
and now we have almost 4sqm then it is not so far.

We don't have almost 4m^2. We have significantly less than that.

In reply to:
then it is not so far

It's massively far. Much, much, much further than we've come already, and we've been plucking the low hanging fruit.

Biologist you may (or may notSly) be, but mathematician you definitely are not. Flight is a physics game, and you fucking suck at crunching the numbers!

jakee  (C License)

Jan 23, 2012, 4:21 PM
Post #46 of 152 (2876 views)
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Re: [gisellemartins] Wingsuit Soaring [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
With the advent of extended arm frames, the Aspect Ratio of wingsuits has increased a lot in the past few years, specially from tonysuits,

No they haven't. If you look at the wingsuit as a whole, AR has remained fairly constant. If you look at the armwings in isolation, it's got lower.

Facts are facts, my dear, and daydreams are still daydreamsWink

Trae  (Student)

Jan 23, 2012, 5:01 PM
Post #47 of 152 (2861 views)
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Re: [gisellemartins] Wingsuit Soaring [In reply to] Can't Post

Hey there Giselle,Smile

Skydivers used to think tandems were impossible.
Funny thing is a lot of the sceptics had to suffer doing thousands of tandems.LaughLaugh

My guess is many current sceptics will happily soar in their future wingsuits but will claim THEY invented the idea.

Humans can't fly Crazy yeah right ....just watch the kids of today they're believers not doubters.

davelepka  (D 21448)

Jan 23, 2012, 8:59 PM
Post #48 of 152 (2818 views)
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Re: [gisellemartins] Wingsuit Soaring [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
The magic of flying have many forms and shapes, we still have lots to learn, a peregrine falcon can glide better than most lighter high aspect ratio birds, even tho the female is almost 1kg heavier.

Where does the shape of a pig come into the magic of flying (the pig from the Pink Flyod concert does not apply). Humans are way closer to pigs than birds. We have evloved into one thing, and birds have evolved into another.

Pigs might not be able to fly, but I wouldn't want to wrestle one. Birds might be able to fly, but if I had to wrestle one, I have a feeling there would be some hollow bird bones snapping in the near future. See the point? Birds are good at some things, and pigs (and people) are good at others.

To keep rolling with this, whales will never walk on dry land. Some whales can't even survive out of the water due to the weight of their bodies crushing their organs out of the boyancy of the water. Great swimmers, not so great at walking, crawling, or even not dying in any way on dry land.

Certain things were made to do certain things, and sometimes to a very specific end. Look at the differences between a Cessna 152 and a sailplane. They're both flying machines, much better flying machines than a jumper in a wingsuit, but even then, only one of them is good for soaring.

If you want to hold out for the perfect suit, and the perfect ultra lightweight, yet ultra-strong jumper, standing on top of the perfect slope, with steady 50 knot winds coming straight up the hill, then you might see something. You might also grow old and die waiting for all that.

The problem comes back to the wing loading, and what it takes to lift a human. Unfortunately for you, we already know what it takes to carry a man aloft. Hang gliders and paragliders have all been built and flown, and they have all been downsized ad-nauseum 'just to see' what would happen, and we know what it takes. It takes more than we as humans can support without assistance, be it from a rigid frame work, or an infalted wing and lineset, but we need some kind of help. Some of us need more of it than others.

Trae  (Student)

Jan 24, 2012, 1:42 AM
Post #49 of 152 (2777 views)
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Re: [davelepka] Wingsuit Soaring [In reply to] Can't Post

in reply to "It takes more than we as humans can support without assistance, be it from a rigid frame work, or an infalted wing and lineset, but we need some kind of help. "
..............................................

Did you mean something like this ?

Santa and his helpers want to know so they can give it to us. Don't say you don't believe in good ol' Saint Nick ?
Attachments: Articulated spar..jpg (81.7 KB)

gisellemartins

Jan 24, 2012, 1:52 AM
Post #50 of 152 (2771 views)
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Re: [davelepka] Wingsuit Soaring [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

Where does the shape of a pig come into the magic of flying (the pig from the Pink Flyod concert does not apply). Humans are way closer to pigs than birds. We have evloved into one thing, and birds have evolved into another.
.

Blyme! Your post is an absolute nonsense, even tho pigs are mammals like humans we humans have arms that moves very simmilar to birds, that's a fact, humans didnt evolve with wings, but we do have a good structure for flying, that's why you can fly your suit, if you were a pig you would not be able to even wear any kind of flyable suit.

As I mentioned before, the flat airfoil of a wingsuit is far more efficient then a curved unframed paraglider, therefore wingsuits even being smaller it has a very clean and efficient airfoil it can reach good performance, that's why the guys almost soared on that video, give wingsuits time and it will materialise for the nightmare of Jakee and a few others ;)


(This post was edited by gisellemartins on Jan 24, 2012, 2:32 AM)

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