Why do you have this (seemingly) insecure reason have people verify time and time again that you put all the work in, and did all the right things in those mere 150 jumps you did?
Dont feel the need to get my approval. My not wanting to teach anyone with lower jumpnumbers, or have that person behind me in a plane diving through a formation of people I see as my friends, wont stop you or anyone else who wants to get into this from starting so. If I say no, there is always another person who will take you or other friends with low experience up...
What concerns me is the general image you put out there for people who want to get into this.
If the 'talented' (or extremely self-confident and ignorant) low-timers could just stop bragging about their low experience (as it comes across as 'look at me' attention whoring more than anything else) and deal with the fact that the other 99% of skydivers or non-BASEjumpers dont have their awesome jedi-like skills, and thus COULD quite use a general recommendition to have a lot more experience than they would get from your words and tips..we'd already be in such a happier place
A number isn't magical. it's not like at 200 jumps the wingsuit fairy waves her wand over your head and says "now you're ready." Then, IMO, you work on specific drills and techniques to get yourself ready to fly with others in a wingsuit. Do some two-ways with someone who is an experienced flyer, no different than freefly or other coaching.
Scott Gray's arm is an excellent example of an experienced flyer being nailed by someone who thought they were "kickin' it"
You can think whatever you want. My point is that you (and others) continue to mention the magic number and experience without mentioning what experience you are referring to (other than the magic number) or things to do to gain that experience. I'm trying to move away from a magic number and towards a list of skills that someone should be proficient at before wingsuiting. A list someone could "work" on ...
So that's it, 200 jumps (doesn't matter what type of jumps), that's "the work" that if someone does they'll be ready to wingsuit.
Yes, if someone does he may be ready.
But, if someone else does that, he may not be ready.
The limit has to be set somewhere and it's set at 200. It's just a recommendation so feel free to to whatever you want. Just as the people who are giving instruction and leading flocks can do whatever they want.
I can drive safely at 100mph in posted 70mph zones. Do you think the cop handing me the ticket cares about my abilities?
I'm trying to move away from a magic number and towards a list of skills that someone should be proficient at before wingsuiting. A list someone could "work" on ...
I've got a good list of skills for you.
1) Fly your body in freefall 200 times. 2) Deploy, fly, and land your canopy 200 times.
Flying a wingsuit is easy, and the most important part of any skydive (especially your first wingsuit jumps) is the canopy ride.
3) Don't ask what wingsuit you should buy on dz.com and assure people you won't even try it before 200 jumps but then go ahead and post on the same dz.com that you did it because you got mad skills
/not directed at anyone //just an observation from many posts here on dz.com ///wish people jumped more that they posted //// it's too cold for me to jump but i better stop posting
I'm trying to move away from a magic number and towards a list of skills that someone should be proficient at before wingsuiting. A list someone could "work" on ...
I've got a good list of skills for you.
1) Fly your body in freefall 200 times. 2) Deploy, fly, and land your canopy 200 times.
Flying a wingsuit is easy, and the most important part of any skydive (especially your first wingsuit jumps) is the canopy ride.
It appears that all we have is an objective number (200) and a subjective word (experienced). If someone asked you what they could do to be better prepared, what would you tell them to do?
(This post was edited by Butters on Dec 1, 2008, 6:56 PM)
It appears that all we have is an objective number (200) and a subjective word (experienced).
Your subjective word was nowhere in my post.
In Reply To
If someone asked you what they could do to be better prepared, what would you tell them to do?
You know the answer to that question. There are plenty of things you can do to "prepare" for your first wingsuit jump, and you know what they are. However, none of those things negate the 200 jump minimum recommendation. None of those things will replace the parachuting experience/skills you'll get from 200 freefalls and 200 canopy rides.
(This post was edited by The111 on Dec 1, 2008, 8:09 PM)
However, none of those things negate the 200 jump minimum recommendation. None of those things will replace the parachuting experience/skills that 200 freefalls and 200 canopy rides will.
You missed the entire point, Matt. "Mad Skillz" + cock-surety and access to information outweigh the value of muscle memory and "oh shit there I was and learned what to do in order to keep myself and others safe." In addition, there is the internet where one can get all the training required.
I continue to hear "put in the work" but no one has defined what "the work" is. So, what is "the work"?
You're referring to Jarno's words. It was pretty clear he meant "do 200 jumps first."
So that's it, 200 jumps (doesn't matter what type of jumps), that's "the work" that if someone does they'll be ready to wingsuit.
Sure.
Any one who can track and be relaxed can fly a wingsuit.
200 jumps is a good approximation of where most skydivers will be relaxed with "just" skydiving and not overwhelmed if they have to relax to fly straight, pull an extra set of handles if things aren't going well in freefall, or pull the handles to reach their reserve toggles. 200 jumps is usually enough to be aware of what's going on at opening time and being able to do something about it instead of believing that openings "just happen." 200 jumps is enough that you should have reasonable situational awareness because skydiving isn't a new and scary thing. 200 jumps is enough that you should instinctively know what @$^& low looks like. Some won't be OK (I know one with thousands of skydives who couldn't stop spinning, dumped his main into a spinning malfunction, and opened his reserve with line twists and broken glasses) but skydiving isn't a safe sport.
People have died with 100ish jumps doing stupid things (like being so over amped they don't bother to look at their altimeter and ignorant enough they didn't realize they were low based on where the horizon wasn't) wearing wingsuits as in the Moab boogie fatality. 200 jumps is probabably a reasonable safety margin beyond that.
200 jumps is the most of what made people "Master Skydivers" in the Ram Air (or post Para-Commander) era which seems a reasonable pre-requisite for anything really different.
(This post was edited by DrewEckhardt on Dec 2, 2008, 2:19 AM)
the 200 jump number is in place in the hopes that at 200 jumps you are aware enough and competant enough in the air to save your life if things get complicated in the wingsuit.
it's not 200 jump NOW you can fly a wing suit.
it's 200 jumps and now you can TRY a wingsuit.
(This post was edited by Squeak on Dec 2, 2008, 3:07 AM)
Re: [pierre3636] What is "the work"?
[In reply to]
Can't Post
I'll accept that those with more experience believe 200 jumps is an acceptable minimum but ...
In Reply To
In Reply To
Any one who can track and be relaxed can fly a wingsuit.
i agree 100% its the best skill to have to become a great/relaxed/aware wings suit pilot.
... there are things that someone can do to be better prepared (for when they have the 200 jumps or more). So what specific things would you advise someone to work on?
It appears that not enough people have DIED doing what we do, for those of you who desire to fly with us~, to learn just how easy it is to have bad things happen. and if you think that your two hundred jumps or the 100 jumps u did prior to putting on a wingsuit gave you enough experience to make the right decision, when you have to, you are sorely wrong. Ive trained people with under just under 200 jumps, and they did fantastic, probably because of who they are, their level of understanding, and the fact that they searched out the best instruction they could, learned everything they could, and then implimented it on a skydive. they did not~ and I repeat, did not, come on DZ.com, tell everybody how bad assed they are, and then ask for their opinion on how to fly a wingsuit. that, along with taking your first wingsuit flight on a BASE jump, continue to be two of the STUPIDEST things ive ever heard of... it takes a huge lack of self respect, as well as an even larger lack of respect for our community to put yourself at this kind of risk, that when you DO go in, it makes us all look bad.. this isnt directed at anyone imparticular on here, just merely what ive been seeing; and this post seemed as good as any to say my piece. I dont post on here, usually because most people dont really take to heart whats said on here, and its not worth my time or mental effort to tell someone something their not going to listen to. all I can say is learn to not kill yourself skydiving, then come fly a wingsuit... if you dont have the skill set first, it will just make wingsuiting that much more fun for your first few chops... nobody wants to see anyone get hurt, thats why we have rules.. thats why you, and all others, should follow them.. hell if it was up to me, id make it 500 like the UK, cause the flocks are getting bigger, and the skill set of newbees needs to come up as well, cause I sure as hell dont want to get taken out AGAIN like Scott G was. that happens... and we'd like for it not too. the only way around that is better training and situational awareness, which, what was it that comes with again?? oh yeah,
EXPERIENCE
Blues
Scotty
If you have to ask what the "work" is, you aint got it figured out yet~
(This post was edited by scottygofast on Dec 2, 2008, 7:00 AM)
tracking relative work flying your body with others relative to you Atmonauti tracking Spotting getting out of confusing situations (you can create them just to get out of them). tracking pant jumps Canopy flight, traffic management. Depending on the size of the DZ, you're going to often be in the air with tandems in a wingsuit, too. This means you need to learn uber-respect for the big, slow boats, particularly if you're under a fairly fast canopy, which I suspect you are. IMO, these are just some of the things you can be doing to prepare for being a good wingsuit pilot in the early stages of your skydiving career. I understand, the next thing you're gonna say is "I did all those things, which is why I was cool to start early." Not everyone is well-above average like you, and developed tremendous skill as quickly as you did.
I realise you were not directing that question at me. But I'm going to answer it anyway. You could probably have found these answers by searching, because I'm pretty sure I posted something like this before. But that would have *you* do the work, and that doesn't seem fair, does it?
Not in any particular order: * Do some solo tracking jumps. Make sure you can steer and be aware of your ground track. * Do some group tracking jumps. Make sure you can fly relative and still be aware of your ground track. * Do some solo freefly. Get used to not being on your belly and in fact not being stable at all times. * Do some belly fourway. Better yet, do a season of fourway team jumping. This teaches basic relative work skills, not to mention being good for your tracking skills. * Learn from your out landings, what to do and what not to do. No need to make outlandings intentionally just as training for wingsuiting of course, but if you are doing a twoway with an attractive MOTAS anyway, propose an out landing. (Take a cellphone and inform manifest when you've landed safely.)
In general, be a rounded skydiver. Learning about your gear means you will have an easier time understanding what canopy to choose for your first wingsuit attempts and how to rig a wingsuit, thus making life easier on your instructor (and you, and making for a more streamlined experience, and more fun). There's a million things to learn that will have some carry-over into wingsuiting. These may also include, but are not limited to, horseback riding, ballet, speaking Spanish and/or French (for those *major* out landings), riding a motorbike, belly bigways, buying and drinking beer, sewing, scuba diving, whatever. I've never heard of a serious hobby or discipline which did not have some carry-over into skydiving in general and wingsuiting in particular. It may also help you put things into perspective; all of them are worthwhile in themselves, not bloody everything is wingsuiting, now!, to the exclusion of everything else (including not-so-common good horse sense).
(This post needs some disclaimers. But I'll be damned if I make it any more too long than it already is. Use your f***ing brain.)
Wingsuit exit. Lots of tracking. While tracking: barrel rolls, right and left, front flip (loop,) back flip, turns and tumbles, fly with others. Pull time: bird pull. Work on heading awareness and control at all times. Using a tracking suit is great training and only requires 50 jumps. Have fun
... there are things that someone can do to be better prepared (for when they have the 200 jumps or more). So what specific things would you advise someone to work on?
Though some people choose to focus on only tracking and related style jumps, I tend to believe in a more all round background, and having some RW experience (diving/approaching formations, docking, seperation) as well as freeflying exits/seperations (people spread throughout the sky more un-even/diff/levels).
And its usually the people who dont have a broader (and more than even the tiny weeny, itsy bitsy amount of 200 jumps) experience that show a lack of judgement in diving/swooping down tto other people or formations in a wingsuit, as well as lacing awereness at seperation and sometimes even route/patern.
What always scares me about people who have little to no jumps when they get into wingsuits, is that (after their shor-track to putting on a wingsuit) most of them dont seem to want to invest in a lot of solo jumps and 2 ways, getting to know their suit and learning to fly their body. They often cant wait to move on to bigger formations, head on to their first bigway boogie etc etc.
And thats usually where you see these same people fly ok for a dozen jumps..and then scare the shit out of half the formation by dropping by at 200 mph as everyone else is approaching the formation.
What Id advise people to work on...just learn to skydive.. You can sure learn a lot in 150 jumps..but why not do twice that amount and be twice the skydiver you are at that point (skills/experience wise?).
A lot of things such as canopy/opening/general awereness always seem like you are on top of the world, and you know it all. But with every few hundred jumps you make, you look back and think...shiiiit I knew little at that point looking back..
Just get as much experience as you can, and dont rush things.. And even if you did (be it for yourself thinking or knowing it was enough) then still dont go round advising other people to take that shortcut.
Not everyone is a skilled jedi, and some people need every single jump they can make to do ok... But sadly those same people will look to you, and take your posts as a confirmation that their shitty/no skills low experience is enough to do something that (for them) is WAY out of their leage..
tracking relative work flying your body with others relative to you Atmonauti tracking Spotting getting out of confusing situations (you can create them just to get out of them). tracking pant jumps Canopy flight, traffic management. Depending on the size of the DZ, you're going to often be in the air with tandems in a wingsuit, too. This means you need to learn uber-respect for the big, slow boats, particularly if you're under a fairly fast canopy, which I suspect you are. IMO, these are just some of the things you can be doing to prepare for being a good wingsuit pilot in the early stages of your skydiving career.
Thanks for the reply. Would you recommend someone focus more on atmonauti and tracking verse relative work? What about freeflying?
PS: I wouldn't consider my canopy to be fast. I've had tandems flash me to move over into the slow lane.
Not everyone is a skilled jedi, and some people need every single jump they can make to do ok...
unfortunately, it also seems to be a pattern that those same people are quick learners (have mad skills) in their own eyes (whether that be wingsuits, canopy downsizing, flying head down, etc)
If someone asked you what they could do to be better prepared, what would you tell them to do? 
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