o.k. so first off. I'm not a swooper. don't call my landings swoops. but I'm a old fat bastard and jump a 190 loaded at about 1.5 or so I'm like 285 out the door. so i think thats about right. so i got a good little bit of speed on my landings. been playing with front risers turns and doublefronts till just before the flare. and I love my old reliable sabre 190 it flys plenty fast for me. but I don't like the occasional shall we say intresting opening. it's bumping me around in thermals. and the high front riser force and the way it bucks when I'm deep on both front risers. thinking about a new custom rig. if I wanted a new xbraced ellip canopy that opened sweet. didn't have a rep. for spinning up. which is one reason I love my old school sabre. I've kicked out of some shit on that old girl. but i digress. something with lighter front riser pressure. what could i get in a 190 size? I know i could get a crossfire 2 in 189. but most of the xbraced stuff I don't see avail in bigger sizes. any thoughts? I know the old girl is gonna wear out eventually. and I'll have to replace her in the next few years. so I'm just thinking out loud here. also while we are talking canopys what does anyone know about the new optimum reserve? does it live up to the hype?. is the packs 1 to 2 sizes smaller claim true? I wonder if pd will ever offer it in a 210 215 or 220 size? maybe in another 6 or 7 years bet it would be cost prohibitive to get them to custom make one huh? well a guy can dream. thanks for listening guys and any replys or pms are welcome
No one makes a crossbraced canopy above the 120 size (minus some custom Xaos 21s made a while back that were 135).
The canopy is bucking in fronts due to your brake lines being too short and/or you're getting into the risers too deep. Every canopy out there will bump around in thermals. Even the Velo 111 I load at 2.6 and the VX 114 I jumped for a while loaded up similarly.
When is the last time your canopy saw a line set?
Have you jumped a Sabre2? The only thing similar to the Sabre1 is the name and that it has 9-cells. Demo a 190 and put 30-40 jumps on it.
After you have done that try the Crossfire2 189. Katanas are only made up to 170, which is understandable since its the no-shit highest performing open 9-cell canopy on the market. The Katana is also one of the best opening high performance canopies on the market as well!
Something you have to think about is how many jumps are you doing a year. Are you doing enough jumps to keep current enough on a canopy that takes over twice as much altitude to recover from a front riser maneuver than your old Sabre?
They (PD) are working on the "large" Optima reserves, but its a lengthy process. I'm with you, since I would love to keep my "large" 176 sized reserve, but have a rig that fits my Velo 111 better.
I'm really partial to PD, but don't take my word for it. Demo everything that is appropriate for your skill level. I'm willing to bet you come back to PD again.
Feel free to PM me if you'd like, I'd be happy to help answer any questions you may have. I would also like you to call up to PD and talk to Isiah. He does work for PD, but he will give you a "no shit" opinion that is well educated and doesn't just center around PD's production line.
and the way it bucks when I'm deep on both front risers.
That's not the canopy's fault, it's your fault for not maintaining it properly
By modern standards Sabres are very docile. They are absolutely on the opposite end of the scale to a crossbrace. Even in the same size the step up to a modern all-round semi elliptical canopy like a Sabre2, safire2 etc. is noticeable. The step up to a modern HP 9-cell like a CF2 or Katana is genuinely huge. The step up directly from a Sabre1 to a crossbrace would be...
so if I'm wanting the best openings and most bottom end flare power. without killing myself. do I want a sabre 2 safire2 firebolt sillouette stiletto spectre something else? back about 19 years and 40 lbs ago on my 1st zero P nine cell jump i went straight from a 288 manta to a 150 sabre 1 that was one of my more holy shit that was really stupid moves. scarred the shit out of myself but i survived loved it and repeated it like 5 more times that day. one of my more stupid moves i will admit on the 1st one the noise of the slider flapping was really a eye opener. but i knew the 143 reserve wasn't gonna help. so all i could do was land it.
so if I'm wanting the best openings and most bottom end flare power. without killing myself. do I want a sabre 2 safire2 firebolt sillouette stiletto spectre something else?
Ask ten jumpers that question and you'll get ten different answers.
Only you know which canopy you'll like best. You can only figure that out by jumping them.
... and the way it bucks when I'm deep on both front risers....
I have noticed some replies above that tell you to lengthen your brake lines to prevent this. Please understand that this change will reduce your ability to stab yourself out of a corner if you should place yourself in such a precarious position.
... and the way it bucks when I'm deep on both front risers....
I have noticed some replies above that tell you to lengthen your brake lines to prevent this. Please understand that this change will reduce your ability to stab yourself out of a corner if you should place yourself in such a precarious position.
Gary, I'm afraid this is not necessarily accurate. When a canopy has tail deflection it is flying slower, and as a result, has less available lift. The faster the canopy is flying the greater the available lift.
That said, if the brake lines are set too long you won't be able to access your full toggle stroke. There should be a SLIGHT bow in the brake lines allowing the pilot enough excess to pull their fronts down without causing the tail to deflect.
It is important to note that the flare will need to be deeper as the toggle settings have changed and the pilot needs to be aware of that but the lines should not be set long enough to prevent the pilot from accessing the full amount of flare available to them.
It should be noted that to cause 'loss of flare' the lines need to be excessively lengthened (really excessively). I would HIGHLY recommend the pilot lengthens the brake lines in increments of no more than 2 inches at a time until they reach the setting that is both comfortable, and allows maximum performance from the wing.
Blues, Ian
(This post was edited by ianmdrennan on Sep 17, 2008, 9:11 AM)
It is important to note that the flare will need to be deeper as the toggle settings have changed and the pilot needs to be aware of that but the lines should not be set long enough to prevent the pilot from accessing the full amount of flare available to them.
That is what I meant in case I did not state it well.
I have a Sabre 230 which was set up with multiple brake settings for a research project, and it cannot be set to anything shorter than 6 inches of "slack". To me this is a huge difference from no slack, and I have had to pull my feet up quite high a few times when I turned a bit lower than I should have.
I have seen some canopies modified for swooping with 6 inches of slack. If you are saying that much is not needed I believe you because I don't know. I don't have any slack in the steering lines of my small canopy.
Perhaps there should be a chart of recommended "slack" in the steering lines for a particular canopy size when used for front riser swoops. If we get enough knowledgeable people to contribute we might be able to come up with a guideline.
I don't have any slack in the steering lines of my small canopy.
Seriously? That canopy is probably dogging out pretty bad and you probably have some good tail flutter.
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Perhaps there should be a chart of recommended "slack" in the steering lines for a particular canopy size when used for front riser swoops
There's really not a set guideline and can never be an exact chart. The line length is a compromise in between having no tail deflection in full flight to being able to not deflect the tail in the amount of input that YOU put into your front risers. Then that is weighed against how much "flare power" you get with the brake lines lengthened.
hey gary thanks for the reply. we haven't been in the sky together in a long time. not since archway at sparta. well i know that my brake lines have a slight bow in them at full flight. but i couldn't do any thing with them w/o replaceing them. when i went to a new riser and velcroless toggle system I had the brakelines replaced and they are a loop on the end that goes thru the grommet on the toggle and loops over it no extra to lengthen . the old school 190 and up have the dual steering line setup I would guess i must be pulling down the tail with the toggles in my hands and on the front risers at the same time. so do people let go of the toggles and do a front riser turn and then grab the rears or toggles to plane out?
on the end that goes thru the grommet on the toggle and loops over it no extra to lengthen .
You can ask you rigger to make a new lower break line. Its just a $5 issue.
In Reply To
so do people let go of the toggles and do a front riser turn and then grab the rears or toggles to plane out?
And die, you missed that step. Don't let go your toggles before landing. You can forget about using rears for plane out on Sabre, it has a short recovery, so it will plane out by itself, when you release your front risers gradually.
I guess i wasn't clear on that. my line of thinking" was surely people don't do it that way" and " I'd be scarred as hell to do that" i"m kinda quoteing my own thoughts if that makes any sense
