Forums: Skydiving Disciplines: Swooping and Canopy Control:
input to plane out or not.

 


tattoojeff  (A License)

Apr 27, 2004, 1:31 PM
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input to plane out or not. Can't Post

currently im doing a 120 degree front riser turn under a veng 120 loaded 1.6. i usualy have to go to double fronts for a sec or two after completing my turn. currently ive been allowing my canopy to recover on its own without input, then go to toggles till shutdown. on the occasions ive been a little low and have to apply toggle input to plane out my swoops feel alot faster and longer. although this method leaves eevn less room for error it seems i get more speed and distance. is this because more of my swoop is ground level (toe drag level) ? which is more optimal natural recovery or manuel ?


diveout  (B 1152)

Apr 27, 2004, 2:03 PM
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Re: [tattoojeff] input to plane out or not. [In reply to] Can't Post

I think the best swoops I've ever had required just a hint of input to plane the canopy out -flying a xoas @2.0- the best performance (I'm referring to making a 5 foot gate and going for distance) is going to come from an approach that does require just a touch of input to get the canopy planed out, some people will call this a "bump" on the toggles, or if you use your rear risers its when your comming our of your turn, facing your target and you just barely give the rears a little nudge, if done properly you're really just trimming the canopy to the precise ange that you want it, not pulling it our of it's dive pre-maturely, that's stabbing your toggles because you're low--

-just my $.02


ManBird  (D 28001)

Apr 27, 2004, 3:17 PM
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Re: [diveout] input to plane out or not. [In reply to] Can't Post

I concur. Maintaining a dive when my canopy wants to plane out results in losing a lot of the "sling" that provides distance and fast "entry" speed.

I'm working off a habit of planing out high right now (I still do it about 25% of the time), but I've definitely found that I get much better speed and distance when I "attack" the entry point and then, as Dan said, sort of "trim" into it.

Gear + camera + clothes + wingsuit + winter weight loads my Sabre2 at 1.84:1.


jmfreefly  (D License)

Apr 27, 2004, 8:55 PM
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Re: [diveout] input to plane out or not. [In reply to] Can't Post

 
Well, xoas and vengence has slightly different recovery arcs, so what works under a xaos may not be exactly the same for a vengence. X-braced canopies tend to be slightly negative recovery/neutral recovery arcs, and do require some input generally to plane the canopy out.

Primary factor is conserving speed, and not bleeding it off prematurely/inadvertantly (either by overly deforming the canopy with riser inputs, or by using toggle inputs) and inducing drag. A shallower angle of approach (all other factors being the same) should yeild a longer swoop.

If you thought you were a little low, but 'fast', I would bet that your swoop wasn't as good as it could have been with a shallower angle of approach. It probably just 'feels' faster. Simple way to test is to set up gates and measure it. Wink

j


NeedToJump  (D 27247)

Apr 27, 2004, 9:04 PM
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Re: [tattoojeff] input to plane out or not. [In reply to] Can't Post

My understanding is the distance from plane-out until landing will be longer without with no input, however the plane-out occurs above normal entry gate altitude. By adding some input to force the canopy to plane out you will get a shorter swoop but more of it will be on ground level so you would get a greater distance score by passing through entry gates.

As I said, that's my understanding. I definitely could be wrong and I'm sure that this differs depending on the type of recovery arc of the canopy and the type of canopy.


tattoojeff  (A License)

Apr 27, 2004, 11:39 PM
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Re: [jmfreefly] input to plane out or not. [In reply to] Can't Post

please define "shallow angle of approach" .


tattoojeff  (A License)

Apr 27, 2004, 11:43 PM
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Re: [NeedToJump] input to plane out or not. [In reply to] Can't Post

so in other words to hit the entry gates i woul;d most likley need to take it a little lower and plane out with slight input . am i understanding you correctly?


NeedToJump  (D 27247)

Apr 28, 2004, 5:49 AM
Post #8 of 16 (2939 views)
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Re: [tattoojeff] input to plane out or not. [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
so in other words to hit the entry gates i woul;d most likley need to take it a little lower and plane out with slight input . am i understanding you correctly?

Once you can hit the entry gates every time without adding additional input then I'd say start playing around with diving the canopy about 5 feet lower and adding input to plane it out. The thing with doing this is that if you're low at all and have to stab then you've completely negated any positive effect this may have and have just shortened your swoop considerably. Get some swoop coaching and see what the coach says. I wouldn't even try this until you're consistantly getting every bit of performance out of your canopy.

In reply to:
please define "shallow angle of approach"
This means that as you approach / get to the entry gates your canopy is over your head flying straight rather than diving you at the ground still.


diveout  (B 1152)

Apr 28, 2004, 10:32 AM
Post #9 of 16 (2875 views)
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Re: [NeedToJump] input to plane out or not. [In reply to] Can't Post

I strongly caution anybody learning about swooping not to dive your canopy lower than normal and try to plane it out. try to imagine yourself doing this...

Instead, try to find out the right amount of input for your canopy and wing loading to create the best results, I guarantee on a veng. loaded at 1.6 there is going to be just a bit on input involved.

Out of all of the competitions that I've been in and seen in person and on video, the most efficient plane-out IS THE SAME as the best technique for a distance score after making a 5-foot entry gate, when the pilot is planing out their foot will just barely eclipse the gate and then off they go, usually staying 2-3 feet above ground lever or higher during the course of the run.

its important to note that this is not a lot of input to create this effect, you are just maximizing the efficiency in your canopy's recovery arc.

If you get a chance, talk to Dusty about this on your next trip to Eloy, or shoot him an E-mail, I know he's been a Freefly coach of yours, but he's been swooping competetively for years also, he would be a good source info on this.


tattoojeff  (A License)

Apr 29, 2004, 9:54 AM
Post #10 of 16 (2785 views)
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Re: [diveout] input to plane out or not. [In reply to] Can't Post

cool thanks Dan and Ari, i appreciate your feed back you both helped clear some things up. and dont worry im not gonna do anything radical out there. i made some real progress last weekend as far as consintency goes and want to stay the coarse. good call on emailing dusty. that dude is sicky icky under the strings.
be safe have fun shred long
jeff


jmfreefly  (D License)

Apr 30, 2004, 10:34 AM
Post #11 of 16 (2722 views)
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Re: [tattoojeff] input to plane out or not. [In reply to] Can't Post

 
I wish I had a better definition for you, but here is my best attempt.

Each canopy with a positive recovery arc (the canopy will recover to level flight with no input) has a path on a circle or arc. Certain canopies, this is a small circle (like an old sabre), other canopies are a larger circle (like a vengence).

With all canopies, you can change this arc drastically by applying input. Take, for example, 'that guy' who is always 'digging himself out of the corner'. He is changing that arc to be very small by stabbing the brakes. He is going from near vertical to horizontal quickly, in a very small arc.

My point is, go for the smoothest recovery arc by applying the least input possible. With a shallow angle of approach (to the ground), you have much more time to react, and you don't need to trade speed to 'digging out'.

j


airgord  (D 15258)

May 8, 2004, 8:03 AM
Post #12 of 16 (2562 views)
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Re: [jmfreefly] input to plane out or not. [In reply to] Can't Post

energy management.


BrianSGermain  (D 11154)

May 8, 2004, 6:46 PM
Post #13 of 16 (2530 views)
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Re: [tattoojeff] input to plane out or not. [In reply to] Can't Post

The following is an excerpt from my new book
"The Parachute and its Pilot"

The Perfect Entry

Once the canopy is at maximum speed, and the location of the approach adjusted, the entry is everything. Generating tremendous speed is not your only task; it is only the beginning. Think of yourself as a ski jumper. Yes, part of your job is to go really fast down the ramp. Coaches and technicians spend years perfecting body position, wax, and ski bases to give the jumper as much energy as possible. If the actual jump itself is ill-timed, or the body position in the air is incorrect, the jumper will not win. For a skydiver, this is about the entry.

In short, your goal is to redirect your flow of energy to a path that lies parallel with the earth. The trouble is, you are going to loose energy in the process. Inertial forces are striving to keep you moving in the same direction. If they win, you will loose; possibly much more than the competition. There are two forces by which a canopy can change its direction of flight with respect to the pitch axis: drag and lift.

If we use drag as the sole force that puts us in level flight, we will loose a great deal of speed. This means that the brakes are a no-no when it comes to the Ultimate Swoop. Most swoopers already know this. The interesting thing is, if we allow lift to be the sole force that levels us off, we will loose distance across the ground as well. Mind you, the safest swoop will always be a no-input level off. Thats not what we are talking about here. This discussion is about maximum distance across the ground. Lets take a look at why this paradox exists.

When a canopy is placed on the Barber-Pole and then allowed to ease itself into level flight, significant amounts of time are necessary for the process to unfold. Drag, therefore is whittling away at the energy over time. The longer we allow the canopy to fly at a shallow angle to the ground, the shorter the ground swoop will be. Granted, if the horizontal distance were measured from 100 feet off the ground, the longest swoop would still be the no input method. That, however, is not the game we are playing. We are trying to level off near the top of the wind blades, and go as far as possible. Since this is the case, we must find a balance between drag and lift to place us in the ground swoop.

Rear riser application is the least of all evils when it comes to forced pitch changes. It does, nonetheless, have drag associated with it. The drag is increased because the pilot is inducing an increased angle of attack, which will inherently have more drag than zero-input flight. The higher the angle of attack, the faster the airspeed will diminish. This means that we are shooting for a happy medium. We must change the direction of the energy, but not so quickly or aggressively that we attain an excessive angle of attack.

For ordering instructions, go to: www.bigairsportz.com


Premier ianmdrennan  (D 25821)
Moderator
May 8, 2004, 9:03 PM
Post #14 of 16 (2518 views)
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Re: [BrianSGermain] input to plane out or not. [In reply to] Can't Post

Great...torture me with interesting information while I wait for your book to arrive Tongue

Looks like it's going to be a very interesting read, indeed.

Blue ones,
Ian


jmfreefly  (D License)

May 8, 2004, 10:01 PM
Post #15 of 16 (2515 views)
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Re: [BrianSGermain] input to plane out or not. [In reply to] Can't Post

 
Alright, I change my answer to whatever Brian says. Smile

j


twnsnd  (D 25389)

May 9, 2004, 8:29 AM
Post #16 of 16 (2494 views)
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Re: [jmfreefly] input to plane out or not. [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
the canopy will recover to level flight with no input

I would edit this to say "the canopy will return to normal straight flight with no input" which is not always flat.



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